SWT planning an EMU order

[jopsuk]

Would I be right in saying that in order to make full use of platforms 21-24, they would need to demolish the Stewarts lane Flyover in order to reinstate track & maximise the number of paths available?

It would certainly help to have eight tracks all the way from Waterloo to Clapham- at the moment the Windsor side is reduced to three tracks from the junction through Queenstown Road, when it would (without that flyover) by four tracks all the way to Barnes

 

[Goldfish62]

It would certainly help to have eight tracks all the way from Waterloo to Clapham- at the moment the Windsor side is reduced to three tracks from the junction through Queenstown Road, when it would (without that flyover) by four tracks all the way to Barnes

The plans I've seen reduce the Windsor lines to three lines throughout between CJ and Waterloo and add in a fifth main line.

 

[swt_passenger]

The plans I've seen reduce the Windsor lines to three lines throughout between CJ and Waterloo and add in a fifth main line.

There have been a number of reports about what to do with the international terminal capacity, and the 3 Windsor + 3 Main Fast and 2 Main slow is fairly consistent, in fact I've read somewhere that before the flyover was built the tracks were used 3+3+2 at the Waterloo end anyway.

The main reason for this is that it allows for peak main line trains to run back to Clapham Jn as ECS down what would be track 4 of 8 (if counting north to south), without conflicting with further arrivals.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...With regards to SWT using 458/5 trains, there needs to be a fair bit of platform extending done first such as at my local station Martins Heron or Bracknell as these stations can only just fit 8 car trains. This is why I believe that we will perhaps have the 450's on a long term basis on the Reading route as the majority of platforms on the Windsor route are all ready capable I believe in taking 12 car trains.

There are a few points amiss with your assumptions. Firstly the main use of 458/5s will not be at your local stations, they may see the odd peak 458/5, but it is already known that they will mainly be used on the Windsor services, and on the Hounslow loop, ie where the 450/5s were recently being used.

Very few platforms on the Windsor side lines are capable of taking 12 car trains, indeed most have only recently been extended from 8 to 10 car as part of the ongoing CP4 project. As has been pointed out before, a few, including some on the actual Windsor branch are not being extended at all and because of this ASDO is being fitted at platforms in the whole SWT area; so the entire 458/450/444 fleet will be capable of SDO to individual carriage level, just like SN's Electrostars.

Once this ASDO is fitted, it will then be perfectly feasible to operate the odd 10 car trains through your local stations, but even then there is a high probability that the remaining stretch of the Reading line from Virginia Water onwards is going to have 10 car extensions during CP5, so some time by 2019.

 

[Goldfish62]

Very few platforms on the Windsor side lines are capable of taking 12 car trains, indeed most have only recently been extended from 8 to 10 car as part of the ongoing CP4 project.

Yes indeed. Only Waterloo, Wokingham (down) and Reading can take 12 cars. Every other platform west of Staines is currently 8 car only.

 

[59CosG95]

Sounds like a radical idea, but maybe SWT are using these units as a dual-voltage stopgap while the existing fleet is prepared for the B'stoke-So'ton OHLE service?

 

[starrymarkb]

Probably not. Conversion would be done a unit at a time, the sets have all the cabling required as well as space for a transformer. Conversion would be a couple of days in the depot

 

[JamesRowden]

Once this ASDO is fitted, it will then be perfectly feasible to operate the odd 10 car trains through your local stations, but even then there is a high probability that the remaining stretch of the Reading line from Virginia Water onwards is going to have 10 car extensions during CP5, so some time by 2019.

The Virginia Water - Reading line cannot power 10-car trains.

 

[Goldfish62]

The Virginia Water - Reading line cannot power 10-car trains.

Good point.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, I had not thought about power - but that will come eventually.

Meanwhile, SWT have published a public version of the info that's filtering out via staff newsletters:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/longertrains.aspx

Includes a pair of comparison photos of a 460 cab and the 'new' cab...

The page also includes links to a diagram of the network showing where platform extensions have been or are being done, and in a separate section about ASDO, mentions that carriage numbers will be displayed internally, (like SN). I wonder if they'll also have those annoying irrelevant messages about which coach you're in when a unit is running singly...

 

[joeykins82]

Unless there's some catastrophic mismanagement going on it's safe to assume that power supply upgrades are one of the key considerations of a train lengthening programme anywhere on the electrified network

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Unless there's some catastrophic mismanagement going on it's safe to assume that power supply upgrades are one of the key considerations of a train lengthening programme anywhere on the electrified network

And therefore a factor in determining whether DC-AC conversion is a better solution.
Maybe not here and now, but it is bound to figure in future DC upgrade planning.

 

[Monty]

Unless there's some catastrophic mismanagement going on it's safe to assume that power supply upgrades are one of the key considerations of a train lengthening programme anywhere on the electrified network

I would imagine considering the massive amounts of work Network Rail have done to the power supply in the Windsor area, any upgrades for the line down to Reading from Virginia Water would have already been taken into account.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

The deadline for requests to participate in the tender was September 10.
Any further news on this order?
G.

 

[swt_passenger]

One significant bit of info that came up in another thread is that the detailed description in the actual OJEU notice does allow for the possibility of cascaded existing stock.

Supply of electric suburban passenger rolling stock. Supply of a fleet of electric suburban heavy rail passenger railway stock. The rolling stock may be either new build or an existing fleet. Where the fleet is new build it must be dual voltage and the chosen supplier will be required to enter into a maintenance support arrangement for the period following the introduction of the whole fleet up to approximately 31.3.2019. Where the fleet is an existing fleet it must operate on a DC network and be compatible with an existing fleet operated by Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited and modified to meet its requirements.

(Obviously you may have seen the info above, so apologies if you are already aware...)

 

[Class377/5]

The deadline for requests to participate in the tender was September 10.
Any further news on this order?
G.

We may not. First info over the 387 order was announcement was when it had been done where as some well placed people didn't enough the tender was even out.

 

[Surreyman]

One significant bit of info that came up in another thread is that the detailed description in the actual OJEU notice does allow for the possibility of cascaded existing stock.



(Obviously you may have seen the info above, so apologies if you are already aware...)

So another possible destination for 319s, if GW go for new EMUs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

SWT could put the 442s to good use on the long distance services (Portsmouth and Weymouth ) thus freeing up some 450s. The 319s might be better for the Gatwick etc services.

 

[swt_passenger]

So another possible destination for 319s, if GW go for new EMUs.

Or 455s, as discussed at length in other threads.

 

[Mooliopunk]

SWT could put the 442s to good use on the long distance services (Portsmouth and Weymouth )

Well, you might not have seen, but earlier a Gatwick Express 442 set on fire, and they are getting very old, so I think that is unlikely to happen:cry:

 

[Helvellyn]

Well, you might not have seen, but earlier a Gatwick Express 442 set on fire, and they are getting very old, so I think that is unlikely to happen:cry:

Could always have new traction package fitted, just like SWT are doing to the 455 fleet. If the 442s had a Chiltern style make over with new doors, new interiors, etc then they would seat more than a 10-car 444 (but probably less than a 12-car 450).
I still think it is likely to be either Southern 455s (refurbished and new traction package) or new suburban style EMUs = Cascade 458/5s back to Reading services and cascade 450s onto the Mainline.

 

[Eagle]

Well, you might not have seen, but earlier a Gatwick Express 442 set on fire, and they are getting very old, so I think that is unlikely to happen:cry:

25 years old. For an EMU that's not particularly old; there's loads of older stuff in the south east.

 

[Mojo]

25 years old. For an EMU that's not particularly old; there's loads of older stuff in the south east.

However that's just the age of the cars. Much of the train equipment dates from much older vehicles.

 

[Monty]

If the 442s are to continue in service for the foreseeable future (and there is no reason why they shouldn't) they will need to have new traction package fitted, the traction motors and control gear is positively archaic. I doubt they'll go back to SWT though.

 

[Mooliopunk]

Could always have new traction package fitted, just like SWT are doing to the 455 fleet. If the 442s had a Chiltern style make over with new doors, new interiors, etc then they would seat more than a 10-car 444 (but probably less than a 12-car 450).
I still think it is likely to be either Southern 455s (refurbished and new traction package) or new suburban style EMUs = Cascade 458/5s back to Reading services and cascade 450s onto the Mainline.

Yeah, that probably would be more 'cost-effective' than buying completely new stock. But if 442s gain a reputation now for spontaneously combustion, the press may not agree! Just thinking of the APT-T, which would have been fine with more development, but because it was rolled put to early it wasn't finished properly and the press jumped on that, which is a shame.

 

[swt_passenger]

However that's just the age of the cars. Much of the train equipment dates from much older vehicles.

Most is from 1966/7, as I mentioned earlier in the '442 fire' thread...

 

[Stats]

The deadline for requests to participate in the tender was September 10.
Any further news on this order?
G.

That procedure looks like it was cancelled. A new notice was issued on 25th September with revised wording and a deadline of the 21 October. The revised wording brought in the possibility of cascaded rolling stock which was not mentioned in the original notice.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting sequence of dates then, because the new notice must have gone out the day before TSGN ITT was issued - which was when the idea of cascading so much stock from SN came out officially...

Funny that. Couldn't possibly have been pushed to change by the DfT, I suppose...

 

[Goldfish62]

I still think it is likely to be either Southern 455s (refurbished and new traction package) or new suburban style EMUs = Cascade 458/5s back to Reading services and cascade 450s onto the Mainline.

Yes, that makes some sense. However, on the Windsor lines around a third of the statiuons have not had their platforms extended to 10 cars because of either cost or physical issues, hence 10-car 455/455/456 combos cannot be used. It's been stated by SWT in the past that it is not possible to fit SDO to the 455s and that's before you consider the technical issues of reconfiguring them to 5-car units.

Given the issues with converting the 458s and 460s I can see why SWT would prefer new stoock.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suppose they could have a mixed solution, with only enough of the SN 455s (possibly remodelled to 3 or 5 car) to allow for the main suburban side to be fully 10 car (once Waterloo has the capability), because all platforms on the routes through Wimbledon will be 10 car capable; and then go back to the earlier idea of stretched 450s for the Reading services?

I understand from that map SWT did a couple of months back that the Kingston rounders could be 455/456 as all the relevant platforms will be 10 car? So I'm thinking that they'd then be the only normal (i.e. weekday) use of 455s on the Windsor side. Obviously at weekends different train lengths apply...

 

[joeykins82]

Given that sections of the SWT network are likely to be converted to OHLE AC in the next decade I don't think that they're going to want to take on a set of EMUs that don't have a pantograph well.