SWT service collapse, 23/12/09

[Matt Taylor]

Any idea what has happened to SWT today? No trains Bournemouth-Southampton, Guildford-Portsmouth, Fareham-Cosham and Island Line is suspended.

I know the weather is poor but only the WoE line seems unaffected at the moment. My wife left Reading at 0830 trying to get to Pompey as she and I have been marooned in a hotel in Reading while we tend to our daughter who is in hospital, whilst the journey is not a life or death matter it is necessary nonetheless as our daughter now has no clean clothes to wear in hospital and we have already put the journey off twice.

So is this a case of trains iced to the live rail or is it something else? She was stuck at Basingstoke and got told that the train in front had broken down but I don't even know if that is true.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

As it stands at the moment, there are trains Guildford - Portsmouth, running late, put down as poor weather conditions. The Bournemouth - Southampton trains appear to be cancelled - poor weather again.

 

[SWTCommuter]

There's an even covering of ice over all the side roads in Southampton at the moment due to rain falling on to frozen surfaces earlier this morning. It sounds as if this has affected the conductor rails.

 

[paul1609]

I Live 18 miles from Havant. The temperature outside is 4 degrees, its been raining here on and off since Monday lunchtime what poor weather conditions?
I think there needs to be a public enquiry as to why train services in the South east have been allowed to collapse this week. Its not just SWT , Southern and South eastern have in fact been even worse.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Things appear to be deteriorating, she just got chucked off the train at Eastleigh with no forward transport being provided. Looks like she'll be coming back to Reading.

Apparently the staff at Eastleigh told everyone for Portsmouth to go to Southampton and get the FGW.....even I know thats not running and I'm 50 miles away.

 

[thefab444]

Both the 0909 and 1009 departures left Southampton right time...?

 

[Bill Badger]

My 30 minute journey from Farnborough to Winchester, took 1 hour 30 mins this morning, so I was one of the lucky ones.

Nearly missed the Cross Country service from Basingstoke to Winchester though. Was sat on a, soon to be abandoned, Pompey train and they sneaked it in on the slow up line to London, with no announcement I could hear! Legged it over when I noticed it and made it by the skin of my teeth!

 

[Southwesttrain]

As far as i know, the Trains are stuck at Southampton Central as their wheels have frozen to the tracks due to the bad weather. I don't know if they will resume service or when

 

[SWT Driver]

Quite simple.

1/ Desiro's are the biggest pile of $h1t going in bad weather their electronics just like all modern stock cannot handle the spikes & fluctuations caused by a heavily iced juice rail, so they thrown a complete mental and the train will eventually shutdown.

Their shoegear is lightweight & unlike a 455, they have a tendency to snap off easily.

A 455 on the other hand built by BR who knew a thing or two about building trains, unlike the cowboy private sector, has a nice heavy weight set of shoe gear compared to the crappy new stock, it also doesn't have the crappy electronics & sensitive computers that new stock has, so will generally keep going.

2/ NR haven't run any de-icing trains, a manager citing that the MPV's need to be serviced after all of the sandite (RHTT) running, so with freezing rain, the juice rail is simply freezing up. Unlike in the past where drivers used to get out & use the paddles to scrape the top of the juice rail, the H&S Taliban have stopped us doing it. So if it does come to a halt due to icing then that's where it stays.

 

[Metroland]

Ah the joys of the SR third rail system, really shows itself up during this sort of weather!

 

[yorksrob]

Ah the joys of the SR third rail system, really shows itself up during this sort of weather!

But surprisingly robust during high winds!

 

[SWT Driver]

Actually the problem is quite easy to solve, it would mean some modifications to the juice rail & units, but it would virtually eliminate any such problems such as icing.

 

[Metroland]

But surprisingly robust during high winds!

So is OHL if put up properly. Switzerland is 100% electrified and Japan is mostly electrified. Both use OHL and these countries have the most reliable train services in the world. Switzerland also spends a significant amount of time snow bound, I've ridden on trains in Switzerland in the snow several times with no significant operating problems.

Third rail always did suffer during ice and snow. and its the chief limitation of the system, no public inquiry needed.

 

[paul1609]

Sorry I disagree, even taking in to account the Desiros and Electrostars the situation is becoming worse year by year. The service on Southern and Southeastern this week has been diabolical with no service being offered on some routes in Sussex 4 days after the last snow melted.
I do wonder whether network Rail isn't breeching its license through its obvious lack of any cold weather precautions.

 

[Micky Redmire]

Actually the problem is quite easy to solve, it would mean some modifications to the juice rail & units, but it would virtually eliminate any such problems such as icing.

..... do please tell ....

 

[StewieG]

..... do please tell ....

I'm sure they already said one of them was to make the 3rd rail shoe on the units sturider as they are on 455's i think they said ?

 

[GB]

But surprisingly robust during high winds

OHL is also fine in high winds, its when the high winds blow trees onto it where the problems start to escalate. Which ever way you look at it each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Vlad the Impaler]

2/ NR haven't run any de-icing trains, a manager citing that the MPV's need to be serviced after all of the sandite (RHTT) running, so with freezing rain, the juice rail is simply freezing up. Unlike in the past where drivers used to get out & use the paddles to scrape the top of the juice rail, the H&S Taliban have stopped us doing it. So if it does come to a halt due to icing then that's where it stays.

Same manager (or the one that decreed the MPV's had to be collectively serviced) also presumabley thought the ice and snow would obligingly stay away until NR's MPV were ready to roll again.

NR Wessex/Kent/Sussex could have always turned to their local OTM provider, whose TRAMMS (sort of old version of MPV's) mostly still have the switches etc from they used to be used for RHTT etc before NR decided to use their own toys. Suspect the old kit that used to sit on the TRAMMS holding the jollup is probably still sitting in a corner of Ashord works forgotten. They spot hire these machines for dropping stuff off at the trackside so why not for this??

But thats far too much like a good idea for the modern railway innit !!! (must remember to suggest offering such cover to NR to our contracts (with NR) manager next time I see him - no doubt get told to stop thinking too much and get back into the cab).

As an aside, who picks up the tab on the railway money-go-round for the services going belly up and all the delays, is it NR as their infrastructure is up the spout or the service operator because their trains ain't running??


Cheers

V

 

[royaloak]

As an aside, who picks up the tab on the railway money-go-round for the services going belly up and all the delays, is it NR as their infrastructure is up the spout or the service operator because their trains ain't running?

it will all end up with Notwork Fail!

 

[Vlad the Impaler]

Ta for that, so looks like Mega Bucks charged to NR,

Spot hire for a a couple of tramms to go de-icing would be (relatively) small change (even at short notice rates)

Trains run, passengers get there, NR saves a large fortune on delay penalties etc. Simples! Everyones happy (apart from Rail replacement bus companys)

V

 

[royaloak]

You after some OT Vlad

 

[MrC]

Quite simple.
A 455 on the other hand built by BR who knew a thing or two about building trains, unlike the cowboy private sector, has a nice heavy weight set of shoe gear compared to the crappy new stock, it also doesn't have the crappy electronics & sensitive computers that new stock has, so will generally keep going.

Hmm a real good pair of rose tinted specs you've got there mate :roll:

The only reasons the 455s and slammers kept going was because BR (& SWT) had years to sort out all the problems they had when first introduced. Still didn't stop them catching their shoe beams alight or knackering line switches or camshafts though. And 442s had a real design problem with their shoegear which meant you had to keep them clean of crap to stop tracking and arcing. Desiros are pretty crap operationally but to be really truthful the old stuff wasn't much better.

The only thing that did keep BR out of the brown smelly stuff was that they had more stock for when the inevitable failures sidelined knackered units for weeks after a period of iced up juice rail. Plus, if things got really bad they could call in units & crews from elsewhere or even locos to drag failed units around. That flexibility is something privatisation has certainly swept away.

2/ NR haven't run any de-icing trains.....

So those deicers I've seen running around for the past 2-3 days must've been a figment of my imagination. However it doesn't matter how many deicers you run if it rains straight afterwards and washes the bloody stuff off.

And that bit about scraping off ice from the juice rail - BTDTGTTS and if the ice is that bad it's a complete waste of time and you won't be doing that at every station on a double rounder will you?

Nah best thing would be to scrap the 3rd rail and put in decent OHL. At least then we'd get trains that went a bit quicker

 

[Domeyhead]

This discussion ties in nicely with a discussion in a local paper about the unreliability of modern SWT units. I argued that all things considered if I wanted the most reliable unit to get me home I would pick the old Hampshire DEMUs (class 205s if I remember correctly) because they carried their own (reliable) power unit and were not riddled with microsensors or computer controlled parts that were as liable to failure as the components they were supposed to be protecting.
As I recall they had a good record even if they were a touch underpowered by today's standards
They were built in the late 1950s - and I am sure that they would be capable or running across the New Forest without too many problems while all the 21st century Desiros are safely back in the warm at Northam.
Does anyone else think that sometimes we use technology just because it's there, not because it actually makes things better?

 

[Drsatan]

This discussion ties in nicely with a discussion in a local paper about the unreliability of modern SWT units. I argued that all things considered if I wanted the most reliable unit to get me home I would pick the old Hampshire DEMUs (class 205s if I remember correctly) because they carried their own (reliable) power unit and were not riddled with microsensors or computer controlled parts that were as liable to failure as the components they were supposed to be protecting.
As I recall they had a good record even if they were a touch underpowered by today's standards

That's a nice idea mate, although there's only one SR DEMU registered for main-line use today, which is a class 201 (Hastings line DEMU). To use it in regular passenger service, even if SWT leased it from a spot-hire company, there would be all manner of bureaucratic hurdles to leap across, so that idea, for the time being, would be a non-starter. I remember reading that during a particularly severe winter in 1991 where the snow overtopped the conductor rail, meaning that no 3rd rail units could run, BR simply used any available diesel locomotives to drag stricken units to their destinations. I don't think that would be possible today because in order to drag a desiro, any locomotive would need a translator wagon because the desiros use Dellner couplers, and there aren't many translator wagons around anyway. Secondly, SWT would have to pay the FOCs/ spot-hire companies fairly hefty leasing fees; it would be (unfortunately for the passenger) cheaper to hire replacement buses.

And yes, I believe the "Thumpers" were powered by a single 680bhp English Electric engine, which isn't much when called upon to move two or three carriages. Because I've never traveled on a "Thumper" I can't really vouch for their performance, other than that they probably were underpowered.

 

[Domeyhead]

ah yes, I was only pipe dreaming. But as it's christmas I'll allow myself a bit of nostalgia. The last trip I took as a passenger on Hampshire DEMU was on a late night train running from Basingstoke down to Eastleigh (So it was probably a Reading -Portsmouth service) and I think the units did not have long to go. They were of course very slow to accelerate but on this particular journey the driver perhaps wanted to give it a last moment of glory and by the time we reached Micheldever tunnels we must have been doing 75mph or even 80mph - well within line speed but in these old units with short bogies the impression of speed was much greater and the old girl fairly flew along. I may have been the only passenger but I enjoyed the trip, and it was nice way to say cheerio to them and that unforgettable musty smell of their springy upholstery!
One final thought - operators these days are obsessed with the miles-between-failures on modern units, but when an entire fleet such as the Desiro 450s are grounded because it cannot cope with adverse weather then every unit in the fleet should be counted as failed. That might make Siemens sit up.

 

[starrymarkb]

The Desiros are on an R&M contract, I imagine the invoice for not meeting the required availability will be in the post shortly...

Maybe it's time to fit the new units with pans and start a long term wiring programme.

 

[thefab444]

but when an entire fleet such as the Desiro 450s are grounded because it cannot cope with adverse weather then every unit in the fleet should be counted as failed. That might make Siemens sit up.

Well, if that happens, we'll find out.

 

[Death]

And to think that not five years ago, they would've just dug the CEPs out and thown those pieces of desiro crap back into the bin where they belong! :roll:

Remembering the extreme snow that we had back in January, I can see weather conditions being particularly bad for the railways between now and the start of February. Does anyone reckon we could be seeing a brief return of the 442's and hiring of loco-hauled heritage stock to make up service capacity?

 

[royaloak]

Does anyone reckon we could be seeing a brief return of the 442's and hiring of loco-hauled heritage stock to make up service capacity?

The 442s are now operated by Southern and there are not enough locos or coaches to form any sort of service, never mind the problems of traincrew.
Nice idea though, wouldnt mind getting my hands on a loco or 3.

 

[SWT Driver]

Getting you to do any work will be a miracle!