Telegraph: Train fares set to rise as ticket system overhauled

[Metroland]

Confirms everything Yorkie and other have said really:

Dozens of the cheapest fares will be cancelled by the train companies and replaced with more expensive ones, costing up to 60 per cent more.

Campaigners have accused the train companies of exploiting rail passengers and squeezing as many fare increases as possible "through the back door".

The scrapping of many of the cheapest fares comes as the second and final stage of a major reorganisation, which was meant to make it easier to buy tickets, takes place next Sunday.

Just three types of ticket – advance, anytime and off peak - will now remain, instead of the confusing array currently on offer, with up to 30 different fares on offer for the same journey.

Rail companies say the changes will simplify the ticket-buying process for passengers and all agreed in April to synchronise the reforms.

National Rail and the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) have repeatedly stressed in promotional material that fares would not increase as a result of the reorganisation.

However, an investigation by the Sunday Telegraph found a series of rises. The cost of a London Midland peak time return ticket from Northampton to Birmingham will go up by 60 per cent for passengers aged 16 to 25 who use a rail card.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-set-to-rise-as-ticket-system-overhauled.html

 

[yorkie]

A good article.

London Midland are effectively replacing the Saver with two products:
* A ticket at the same PRICE but only valid off peak;
* A ticket with the same VALIDITY (any train) but at a higher price!

So, clearly, the claim that fares will not rise is a lie. The rise is around 6% but it's more serious than that. The old Saver (unrestricted) was regulated to Inflation+1% yet the new Anytime ticket that replaces it is NOT regulated so it can go up by as high a percent as they want. The Off Peak ticket will count as the regulated fare. So while it may "only" be 6% now that gap will increase. Next fare rises are only 4 months away now!!

The article mainly refers to the fact that 16-25 railcard holders will be punished with a £16 MIN fare to use their railcard rather than £8 MIN at present, for those tickets.

Not sure how FGW are going to prevent this happening....

 

[P156KWJ]

I don't really use the train if I'm going to Derby any more - it's cheaper, more frequent, faster, convenient and faster than train being on the Red Arrow. It's just not worth the money

 

[glynn80]

Confirms everything Yorkie and other have said really:

Dozens of the cheapest fares will be cancelled by the train companies and replaced with more expensive ones, costing up to 60 per cent more.

Campaigners have accused the train companies of exploiting rail passengers and squeezing as many fare increases as possible "through the back door".

The scrapping of many of the cheapest fares comes as the second and final stage of a major reorganisation, which was meant to make it easier to buy tickets, takes place next Sunday.

Just three types of ticket – advance, anytime and off peak - will now remain, instead of the confusing array currently on offer, with up to 30 different fares on offer for the same journey.

Rail companies say the changes will simplify the ticket-buying process for passengers and all agreed in April to synchronise the reforms.

National Rail and the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) have repeatedly stressed in promotional material that fares would not increase as a result of the reorganisation.

However, an investigation by the Sunday Telegraph found a series of rises. The cost of a London Midland peak time return ticket from Northampton to Birmingham will go up by 60 per cent for passengers aged 16 to 25 who use a rail card.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-set-to-rise-as-ticket-system-overhauled.html

I have been liasing for the last week with the Telegraph to get this story public, they got very confused but after alot of assistance an accurate story was put together, they had been looking for a while for fare rises due to the new round of simplification (having already reported on the previous Advance simplification) and had been unable to find any, but after contact with us it took very little to get the story published

 

[First class]

Some of that is just complete cra*

"A return from Wigan to Lancaster with Northern Rail at peak time will now cost £13.50, instead of £8.90 – an increase of 52 per cent. Again, the change of name of the ticket from saver to anytime, and the restrictions that brings with it, have pushed the price up. "

Look at this journey that is quoted for example, (no railcards).

Wigan - Lancaster currently is £13.50 for a STD SVR RTN

And on 8th september,:

Wigan - Lancaster will be £13.50 for a STD Anytime Return:

It's the same fare, but for an equivalent of an open ticket, which means it is less restrictive, and even better value...

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGE! Where the hell did £8.90 come from? I think they are trying to compare a railcard journey to a none-railcard journey and trying to say that the reason the none-railcard journey is more expensive, is because Northern have raised prices. I'm not even convinced Northern set this fare!!!!

Once everyone gets used to this new system, I think you will find it isn't actually as bad as you think. The main confusion I think will be between Anytime Day Returns (ADR), formerly SDR, and Anytime Returns, (ANR), formerly SVR/Open

 

[alex57601]

Ste I'm in total agreement with you!

I find that part of the article rather funny, as I actually pointed the Wigan-Lancaster return fare out to Yorkie a few weeks ago both before and after the change. As I start at Lancaster University later this month (and will be doing some travelling home occasionally) I explained to Yorkie, albeit to little avail, that the changes actually benefit me on this journey as not only does the fare stay the same, it is less restrictive in the sense that it allows me to go home and stop overnight and return at any time within one calendar month without having to shell out for two singles separately or be bogged down in peak-time travel restrictions, as per currently.

The £8.90 fare is how much it will cost when bought with a 16-25 Railcard. And the last time I checked you currently can NOT use a railcard between 7am-10am (aka peak-time), and you won't be able to do so anyway after the change...and I for one don't intend to buy the ticket in the peak-time anyway. Even if you go with the standard fare without a railcard discount there will be no restrictions when you can travel for both the outward and return legs, and there will be no change to the times when you can travel on a standard ticket after the change. I will also like to point out that the fare is set by Virgin Trains, and not Northern. You will also find that there are very little services run by Northern that run direct between Wigan and Lancaster anyway.

Therefore it's a load of bull$hit about the Wigan-Lancaster return fare jumping up by 52% come next week. In fact, the changes are great for me as the ticket will be upgraded from the current Day Return ticket to the Anytime ticket at no extra cost whatsoever and with no changes whatsoever.

Furthermore I'm beginning to think now that some of these claims that fares are getting more expensive all-round are greatly exaggerated, and I can see serious flaws in these claims as it is only a handful of operators that are spotlighted and some of the figures are meddled with by omitting what the type of fare is to try and suit the argument.

I suggest that everyone should do a check on National Rail to see what their fares are like now on the journeys they make and compare them with what they will be like after the change, don't forget to get quotes for journeys with and without a railcard. Draw your own conclusions from that whether the fares are going up and whether your ticket becomes less flexible, as Yorkie and the article claims to be happening.

To quote a common phrase: "Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers."

 

[First class]

Well if Virgin are setting that fare, and things seem to have improved, then surely most of Virgin's fares are going to be in a similar position...

Merseyrail/Northern are doing nothing in respect of fare rises, they are remaining the same until January 2009.

I also find it hard to believe that FGW suddenly stopped implementing a fare increase simply because a newspaper spoke to them...

The only thing that affects me is that I could have used a saver during peak time on Virgin because I have a railcard, and apparantly I can no longer do that. However, I am sure that Virgin will ammend this, to allow the use of off-peak tickets on peak trains with a railcard. Charity workers get this benefit as well, so are Virgin really going to upset them?

ATW, Merseyrail & Northern set fares remain unchanged. I am sure that some fares on other operators may increase, but not neseccarily because of simplification. I am yet to see a convincing example of major fare increases by stealth.

 

[alex57601]

I would just like to further ask the question in relation to Ste's original post...what restrictions are there on an Anytime ticket that are not on a Saver ticket apart from the Railcard restrictions?

 

[theblackwatch]

The article mainly refers to the fact that 16-25 railcard holders will be punished with a £16 MIN fare to use their railcard rather than £8 MIN at present, for those tickets.

Rather one-sided though as to be unbiased you'd think it would mention the savings railcard holders are now making on AP tickets. Something positive, oh no, you can't say that....

 

[glynn80]

Some of that is just complete cra*

"A return from Wigan to Lancaster with Northern Rail at peak time will now cost £13.50, instead of £8.90 – an increase of 52 per cent. Again, the change of name of the ticket from saver to anytime, and the restrictions that brings with it, have pushed the price up. "

Look at this journey that is quoted for example, (no railcards).

Wigan - Lancaster currently is £13.50 for a STD SVR RTN

And on 8th september,:

Wigan - Lancaster will be £13.50 for a STD Anytime Return:

It's the same fare, but for an equivalent of an open ticket, which means it is less restrictive, and even better value...

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGE! Where the hell did £8.90 come from? I think they are trying to compare a railcard journey to a none-railcard journey and trying to say that the reason the none-railcard journey is more expensive, is because Northern have raised prices. I'm not even convinced Northern set this fare!!!!

Once everyone gets used to this new system, I think you will find it isn't actually as bad as you think. The main confusion I think will be between Anytime Day Returns (ADR), formerly SDR, and Anytime Returns, (ANR), formerly SVR/Open

You really do not understand at all the point being made, have you not read any of the threads on simplification as this is just stupidity. I and yorkie did the research for The Sunday Telegraph on this piece and this has been confirmed by all the relevant pricing managers.

These fares are for 16-25 RAILCARD holders and it states that more than once in the article. Holders of the 16-25 RAILCARD can purchase tickets in peak time but with a minimum fare of either £8.00 or £16.00 depedning on the ticket type, the article is trying to explain (if you had bothered to read it carefully) that the fares on the routes in question were previously subject to an £8.00 minimum fare but after their renaming are now subject to a £16.00 minimum fare hence the fare rises.

Well if Virgin are setting that fare, and things seem to have improved, then surely most of Virgin's fares are going to be in a similar position...

Merseyrail/Northern are doing nothing in respect of fare rises, they are remaining the same until January 2009.

I also find it hard to believe that FGW suddenly stopped implementing a fare increase simply because a newspaper spoke to them...

The only thing that affects me is that I could have used a saver during peak time on Virgin because I have a railcard, and apparantly I can no longer do that. However, I am sure that Virgin will ammend this, to allow the use of off-peak tickets on peak trains with a railcard. Charity workers get this benefit as well, so are Virgin really going to upset them?

ATW, Merseyrail & Northern set fares remain unchanged. I am sure that some fares on other operators may increase, but not neseccarily because of simplification. I am yet to see a convincing example of major fare increases by stealth.

Virgin do not set the fare for Wigan to Lancaster, Northern set the fare (check the fares manual), if you actually read the article again you'd see all the facts are pretty clear and set out from a very complicated situation. All of these rises are by stealth in my opinion as all three of the operators in question decided that no publicity would surround the fact of these fare increases to customers whatsoever and until the article came out even guards were pretty unaware (expecially with Northern Rail as on speaking with the pricing manager a hasty set of meetings were arranged with various ticket office and guard managers)

If anyone needs further clarification on this they can PM me or ask on here, please do your research before quoting opinion or just unaccurate information as fact.

 

[Bayum]

Bit of a shame that no one from here has been mentioned in that article really. . . And that they said they did the investigation and all that

 

[Max]

The £8.90 fare is how much it will cost when bought with a 16-25 Railcard. And the last time I checked you currently can NOT use a railcard between 7am-10am (aka peak-time), and you won't be able to do so anyway after the change...and I for one don't intend to buy the ticket in the peak-time anyway.

This simply isn't true. Where does 7am come from? You CAN use a railcard before 10am, but with certain minimum fares (£8 for SVRs, £16 for SDRs/SORs). This is why the fare is £8.90, as it is above the £8 minimum fare for savers. Therefore 16-25 railcard holders DO see a fairly large increase before 10am. This is identical to what is happening to me. I often travel to Malton to work on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway, and for this I have to travel early in the morning to get there in time for the start of my shift. My fare is jumping significantly, from around £12, to £16, as the saver is in fact now the anytime ticket, with a higher minimum fare of £16. Same for Cottingham-York, a journey I frequently make, jumping from £12.80 to £16.

 

[First class]

I think you are all best leaving the system alone until it has been implemented for a few weeks. Just because some journeys increase, does not mean they all do. Some are now better of as a result.

Your fare is not increasing, your ticket is changing. That is a difference. The Anytime ticket has more favourable restrictions, i.e. none. So hence you have to pay more - that's fair enough.

Fares won't rise for most people, and by doing this, you simply highlight your own personal problems with tickets.

Yet somehow, if I wrote to the newspaper saying I am actually better of because of the ticket simplification- no1 would care.

The article was unclear and confusing, and I have 3 years of experience in an ATW Chester railway station.

Most of the problems here seem to be with the minimum fare issues. If you intend to travel during the peak, a YP is the wrong thing. You need a season ticket. YPs are NOT intended to help with peak travel. If prices are rising so much for you, then get a nicely regulated season ticket that will remain at the same price until 2009.

Personally I think the YP railcard should be banned before 10am anyway. That would encourage a hell of a lot of people to travel off peak. I can guarantee that people moan because it's too busy... and you can't get a seat. I appriciate you have to get to work, but a YP is no longer the thing you need, and you have to accept it, and move on...

 

[yorkie]

Some of that is just complete cra*

"A return from Wigan to Lancaster with Northern Rail at peak time will now cost £13.50, instead of £8.90 – an increase of 52 per cent. Again, the change of name of the ticket from saver to anytime, and the restrictions that brings with it, have pushed the price up. "

That is not "crap", it is true, if you hold a 16-25 card. The article does state that.

Look at this journey that is quoted for example, (no railcards).

Wigan - Lancaster currently is £13.50 for a STD SVR RTN

And on 8th september,:

Wigan - Lancaster will be £13.50 for a STD Anytime Return:

It's the same fare, but for an equivalent of an open ticket, which means it is less restrictive, and even better value...

That is true, but it is no more "open" than it was before, so that is false. "Open" tickets that allowed outward travel for 1 month have been abolished!

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGE! Where the hell did £8.90 come from? I think they are trying to compare a railcard journey to a none-railcard journey and trying to say that the reason the none-railcard journey is more expensive, is because Northern have raised prices. I'm not even convinced Northern set this fare!!!!

They are comparing journeys with railcards. The article does say that.

. I'm not even convinced Northern set this fare!!!!

They do. If you are not convinced on things, why not check them out before calling them "crap"?

Once everyone gets used to this new system, I think you will find it isn't actually as bad as you think. The main confusion I think will be between Anytime Day Returns (ADR), formerly SDR, and Anytime Returns, (ANR), formerly SVR/Open

The main confusion is the validity codes being a total shambles.

 

[87015]

The main confusion is the validity codes being a total shambles.

Quote: "It'll be totally free" from a.gripper after they change as staff arn't being made aware of said restrictions anyway...

 

[yorkie]

Ste I'm in total agreement with you!

I find that part of the article rather funny, as I actually pointed the Wigan-Lancaster return fare out to Yorkie a few weeks ago both before and after the change. As I start at Lancaster University later this month (and will be doing some travelling home occasionally) I explained to Yorkie, albeit to little avail, that the changes actually benefit me on this journey as not only does the fare stay the same, it is less restrictive in the sense that it allows me to go home and stop overnight and return at any time within one calendar month without having to shell out for two singles separately or be bogged down in peak-time travel restrictions, as per currently.

That is not correct. How is it less restrictive? You were able to return at any time within one calendar month before; you are still able to. That is unchanged. You were not "bogged down in peak-time travel restrictions" before, the ticket was unrestricted; but in total conflict with what you just said, you ARE now "bogged down in peak-time travel restrictions" as the discounted fare is not valid before 10:00!.

The £8.90 fare is how much it will cost when bought with a 16-25 Railcard.

Correct.

And the last time I checked you currently can NOT use a railcard between 7am-10am (aka peak-time), and you won't be able to do so anyway after the change...

Incorrect! You can use your railcard at any time, subject to minimum fare restrictions. That means that, for this journey, you could use your railcard before 10am before but you can't now.

and I for one don't intend to buy the ticket in the peak-time anyway.

Then it doesn't affect you personally, but it does affect others.

Even if you go with the standard fare without a railcard discount there will be no restrictions when you can travel for both the outward and return legs, and there will be no change to the times when you can travel on a standard ticket after the change.

Correct. there is no change for non-railcard holders.

I will also like to point out that the fare is set by Virgin Trains, and not Northern.

Can you please tell me where you get that information from?

You will also find that there are very little services run by Northern that run direct between Wigan and Lancaster anyway.

Correct, but that doesn't affect anything.

Therefore it's a load of bull$hit about the Wigan-Lancaster return fare jumping up by 52% come next week.

No it is not "bull$hit". For 16-25 card holders travelling before 10am it IS going up by 52%.

In fact, the changes are great for me as the ticket will be upgraded from the current Day Return ticket to the Anytime ticket at no extra cost whatsoever and with no changes whatsoever.

No, that is not what is happening. The Saver ticket is becoming Anytime. Standard Day becomes Anytime Day.

Furthermore I'm beginning to think now that some of these claims that fares are getting more expensive all-round are greatly exaggerated,

They are not exaggerated. They only apply to 16-25 holders at peak time. That has been made clear.

and I can see serious flaws in these claims as it is only a handful of operators that are spotlighted and some of the figures are meddled with by omitting what the type of fare is to try and suit the argument.

Only 3 operators are affected, 1 has promised to fix it. No claims have been made that it affects any other operators. No figures have been meddled with (that's slander!), and the type of fare is, in ALL affected cases, Saver to Anytime.

I suggest that everyone should do a check on National Rail to see what their fares are like now on the journeys they make and compare them with what they will be like after the change,

I suggest using Evolvi.

don't forget to get quotes for journeys with and without a railcard. Draw your own conclusions from that whether the fares are going up and whether your ticket becomes less flexible, as Yorkie and the article claims to be happening.

To quote a common phrase: "Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers."

Yes, but this time the paper has got the story correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well if Virgin are setting that fare, and things seem to have improved, then surely most of Virgin's fares are going to be in a similar position...

Virgin do not set that fare - where are you getting that information from?

No, Virgin's fares are not in a similar position.

Merseyrail/Northern are doing nothing in respect of fare rises, they are remaining the same until January 2009.

They are causing increases for 16-25 holders travelling at peak time. Nothing more; nothing less.

I also find it hard to believe that FGW suddenly stopped implementing a fare increase simply because a newspaper spoke to them...

It will be interesting to see what happens.

The only thing that affects me is that I could have used a saver during peak time on Virgin because I have a railcard, and apparantly I can no longer do that.

That is correct, this is because the Saver had a MIN fare of £8 before 10am. You can no longer get this fare before 10am due to the ticket now being re-categorised Anytime therefore the MIN fare is £16 which is higher than the ticket cost, hence no discount. You are absolutely correct on this point.

However, I am sure that Virgin will ammend this, to allow the use of off-peak tickets on peak trains with a railcard. Charity workers get this benefit as well, so are Virgin really going to upset them?

Virgin do accept Off Peak tickets on any train with a railcard, that is correct. However that does not help with Wigan-Lancaster as there is no Off Peak ticket available.

ATW, Merseyrail & Northern set fares remain unchanged. I am sure that some fares on other operators may increase, but not neseccarily because of simplification. I am yet to see a convincing example of major fare increases by stealth.

LM have done 6% increases by stealth for non-railcard holders travelling at peak time, the gap will probably widen to a higher level than 6% as the new Anytime fares are not regulated.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would just like to further ask the question in relation to Ste's original post...what restrictions are there on an Anytime ticket that are not on a Saver ticket apart from the Railcard restrictions?

None - just MIN fare restrictions for railcard holders, that is correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Rather one-sided though as to be unbiased you'd think it would mention the savings railcard holders are now making on AP tickets. Something positive, oh no, you can't say that....

It is positive but that happened back in May. Also Advance tickets are generally not available for the people who are affected by this particular change.

 

[Metroland]

'Your fare is not increasing, your ticket is changing. That is a difference. The Anytime ticket has more favourable restrictions, i.e. none. So hence you have to pay more - that's fair enough.'

Well yep, that is the nub of it. I suppose that could be seen as stealth fare rises and some people (like Max) quite rightly won’t be happy. Those that are used to cheap walk on fares around the peak, especially those who get railcard reductions, seem to be affected the most from my research.

Nevertheless I would still say the article is unbalanced insomuch as the idea of these changes is to smooth demand and you can get some reasonable bargains off peak and these probably offset the other rises. Therefore they aren’t fare rises in themselves. I understand some people won’t like that, but then, overcrowding is an issue during the peak, and others on expensive tickets don’t like that either.

****

On a side note and on a general note: Finally, I’m a little bit surprised at forum members feeding the press. That’s not to say that the railway is above criticism, but do we actually do ourselves any favours? Some of the press in this country are known to be fairly economic with the truth and jump at the chance to write anything negative. The problem with that is the negative gets completely blown out of all proportion and perception moves well away from reality. A good example was the safety scares a few years ago. I knew people that wouldn’t get on a train because they thought it was unsafe; because of the way the press highlights rail accidents and ignores road accidents. Defends the driver and lambasts the railway and other transport concerns.

When people don’t believe in ‘the system’, they don’t care or promote it or it’s not trusted. Hence, we end up with maximum red tape and a jaded opinion that isn’t completely fair and stifles debate and policy. And anyone associated with that system to be ‘fair game’ for any abuse, even it’s not fair.

As enthusiasts you might think we are unaffected by these opinions. But you’d be quite wrong. We don’t do a very good job at promoting our interests or what we are interested in. If we get flak, then that’s our fault.

While I don’t want to hide the truth and *constructively* criticise where appropriate we should rise above everything we read in the papers or to be reality and actually be a little more positive or at least bother to find out the full facts on anything we do read and don’t automatically come to conclusions. As I said, there are ways of being economic with the truth and (some of) the press in this country are masters at promoting the negative (and not just about railways, many things where they think there is a story) and hiding the other side of the story in the small print!

I find it disappointing and frustrating when so-called enthusiasts come to me with opinions when they ought to know better - I have one that spends all night on MSN going on about how bad the railways are and how good everything else is. I’ve had less abuse for signed up railway haters! Don’t get me wrong, the railways aren’t all brilliant and we shouldn’t all be getting on trains all of the time and I'm not a big fan how these fare changes have been made. But let’s keep things into perspective shall we? Because nobody ever said that was the case and that’s what we should be doing. In short, some people are too black and white when it's shades of grey, as real life is.

The point of this whole post is I find it even more disappointing to find some ‘enthusiasts’ are behind these stories which give staff and enthusiasts alike so much flak. Some people tell me that I shouldn’t care or rise to the bait. But as a real enthusiast who believes in fair play, I see it as part of the deal. You might think you are doing everyone a big favour and things and perceptions will improve if you keep turning the screws, but all the evidence is just the opposite happens.

Anyway, there ends my sermon for today: I don’t expect everyone to agree, perhaps even very few people to agree, in fact a couple of people to launch into me and tell me its the railways fault for messing the system up: But I’d like you to think about it, please.

 

[theblackwatch]

Quote: "It'll be totally free" from a.gripper after they change as staff arn't being made aware of said restrictions anyway...

Which goes back to something I said on another thread, in that every ticket should have its validity code printed on it.

It's a shame that the article didn't go into the fact, despite the change of branding name, the ticketing system is still as confusing as it used to be, with som many different restrictions in place that make it virtually impossible for passengers (and even staff) to know. Was this mentioined to the paper by Glynn80 or Yorkie? (Or was the paper only interested in the fares increase rather than the broader problem?)

 

[yorkie]

Bit of a shame that no one from here has been mentioned in that article really. . . And that they said they did the investigation and all that

Yeah, it is. A lot of work was put in and they didn't credit us.

 

[alex57601]

Yorkie I have little time to be arguing with you on this, but the fact of the matter is the changes will benefit me for Lancaster-Wigan come next week. You can spin it all you like and point to the technicalities, but I am not going to be convinced (on this sector at least).

 

[glynn80]

On a side note and on a general note: Finally, I’m a little bit surprised at forum members feeding the press. That’s not to say that the railway is above criticism, but do we actually do ourselves any favours? Some of the press in this country are known to be fairly economic with the truth and jump at the chance to write anything negative. The problem with that is the negative gets completely blown out of all proportion and perception moves well away from reality. A good example was the safety scares a few years ago. I knew people that wouldn’t get on a train because they thought it was unsafe; because of the way the press highlights rail accidents and ignores road accidents. Defends the driver and lambasts the railway and other transport concerns.

When people don’t believe in ‘the system’, they don’t care or promote it or it’s not trusted. Hence, we end up with maximum red tape and a jaded opinion that isn’t completely fair and stifles debate and policy. And anyone associated with that system to be ‘fair game’ for any abuse, even it’s not fair.

As enthusiasts you might think we are unaffected by these opinions. But you’d be quite wrong. We don’t do a very good job at promoting our interests or what we are interested in. If we get flak, then that’s our fault.

While I don’t want to hide the truth and *constructively* criticise where appropriate we should rise above everything we read in the papers or to be reality and actually be a little more positive or at least bother to find out the full facts on anything we do read and don’t automatically come to conclusions. As I said, there are ways of being economic with the truth and (some of) the press in this country are masters at promoting the negative (and not just about railways, many things where they think there is a story) and hiding the other side of the story in the small print!

I find it disappointing and frustrating when so-called enthusiasts come to me with opinions when they ought to know better - I have one that spends all night on MSN going on about how bad the railways are and how good everything else is. I’ve had less abuse for signed up railway haters! Don’t get me wrong, the railways aren’t all brilliant and we shouldn’t all be getting on trains all of the time and I'm not a big fan how these fare changes have been made. But let’s keep things into perspective shall we? Because nobody ever said that was the case and that’s what we should be doing. In short, some people are too black and white when it's shades of grey, as real life is.

The point of this whole post is I find it even more disappointing to find some ‘enthusiasts’ are behind these stories which give staff and enthusiasts alike so much flak. Some people tell me that I shouldn’t care or rise to the bait. But as a real enthusiast who believes in fair play, I see it as part of the deal. You might think you are doing everyone a big favour and things and perceptions will improve if you keep turning the screws, but all the evidence is just the opposite happens.

Anyway, there ends my sermon for today: I don’t expect everyone to agree, perhaps even very few people to agree, in fact a couple of people to launch into me and tell me its the railways fault for messing the system up: But I’d like you to think about it, please.

Before speaking with the press I spoke to both ATOC and the pricing managers for the companies involved all of which confirmed there would be price rises for the 16-25 Railcard holder but refused to a) publicise it or b) change their existing publicity which states noone's fare would rise.

In terms of FGW it has actually made them aware that there were price rises in the first place and has actually made them change their fares structure so as there aren't price rises, now if people want price rises then fine but I for one would rather put pressure on companies (through the media if nessecary) so as fare rises don't occur and clearly for one company it worked.

Also the fact you think staff and enthusiasts will be getting alot of flak, well before this was brought to their attention they would of had passengers on Monday morning who's fare had risen by some over 50% and them not knowing which tickets were valid and which one's weren't (see Yorkie's example of York to Leeds with about 10 different Off Peak ticket with some valid and some not) as staff on other forums and staff I have spoken to have had no idea there would be price rises or that simplification would lead to such confusion (hence why Northern hastily scheduled meetings with managers to try to solve these issues).

 

[Mojo]

Which goes back to something I said on another thread, in that every ticket should have its validity code printed on it.

Because of that, it is also becoming even *more* confusing for some journeys. At present from FIT-TAU there is a Saver Return and a Cheap Day Return, both with different restrictions. From the changes they will both be called Off-Peak Returns, the only difference being 'Day' for the more restrictive ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie I have little time to be arguing with you on this, but the fact of the matter is the changes will benefit me for Lancaster-Wigan come next week. You can spin it all you like and point to the technicalities, but I am not going to be convinced (on this sector at least).

How will they benefit you?

What is it you are not convinced of?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because of that, it is also becoming even *more* confusing for some journeys. At present from FIT-TAU there is a Saver Return and a Cheap Day Return, both with different restrictions. From the changes they will both be called Off-Peak Returns, the only difference being 'Day' for the more restrictive ticket.

Indeed. They are both "Off Peak" but have different validities; one is valid before than the other.

In other words, some Off Peak tickets are more "Off Peak" than other Off Peak tickets!

Taking an extreme, York-Donny Off Peak is valid after 0400, York-Donny Off Peak Day is valid after 1000! So the "Day" makes it more restrictive.

The opposite applies with Hereford-Birmingham, Off Peak Day is valid after 0830 but Off Peak is not valid until 0900. Here, addition of the word "Day" makes the ticket less restrictive.

 

[Metroland]

Before speaking with the press I spoke to both ATOC and the pricing managers for the companies involved all of which confirmed there would be price rises for the 16-25 Railcard holder but refused to a) publicise it or b) change their existing publicity which states noone's fare would rise.

In terms of FGW it has actually made them aware that there were price rises in the first place and has actually made them change their fares structure so as there aren't price rises, now if people want price rises then fine but I for one would rather put pressure on companies (through the media if nessecary) so as fare rises don't occur and clearly for one company it worked.

Also the fact you think staff and enthusiasts will be getting alot of flak, well before this was brought to their attention they would of had passengers on Monday morning who's fare had risen by some over 50% and them not knowing which tickets were valid and which one's weren't (see Yorkie's example of York to Leeds with about 10 different Off Peak ticket with some valid and some not) as staff on other forums and staff I have spoken to have had no idea there would be price rises or that simplification would lead to such confusion (hence why Northern hastily scheduled meetings with managers to try to solve these issues).

Well at least you had the good sense to talk to ATOC. I’m pretty appalled they confirmed there would be price rises but didn’t want to publicise it. Of course the truth of this is that the orders have come from DfT rail who want to reduce subsidy after years of micromanagement and the knee-jerk reactions over safety scares which have inflated costs. It’s all based on lack of trust and damage limitation, the roots of which are in what I have described above - perhaps because we have an elected government that runs the country around popular opinions of journalists? It doesn’t seem to be able to communicate it’s own ideas - hence my plea lets not make things even worse! That said, I broadly agree with what they are trying to do IE spread the load, but it sounds like they have done it in most ham-fisted way. I still believe nevertheless that we’d do better putting pressure on through campaign groups like the Campaign for better transport, local rail groups like Mojos and Railfuture rather than playing into the hands of the right-wing press.

 

[glynn80]

Well at least you had the good sense to talk to ATOC. I’m pretty appalled they confirmed there would be price rises but didn’t want to publicise it. Of course the truth of this is that the orders have come from DfT rail who want to reduce subsidy after years of micromanagement and the knee-jerk reactions over safety scares which have inflated costs. It’s all based on lack of trust and damage limitation, the roots of which are in what I have described above - perhaps because we have an elected government that runs the country around popular opinions of journalists? It doesn’t seem to be able to communicate it’s own ideas - hence my plea lets not make things even worse! That said, I broadly agree with what they are trying to do IE spread the load, but it sounds like they have done it in most ham-fisted way. I still believe nevertheless that we’d do better putting pressure on through campaign groups like the Campaign for better transport, local rail groups like Mojos and Railfuture rather than playing into the hands of the right-wing press.

Some very good points made there and yes both Northern and ATOC admitted there would be price rises but both declined to either change their publicity or publicise the fact o price rises. I can see your point of going through Campaign groups but in my opinion they have little power and have pretty limited influence in getting things done being a member of one myself they really put little pressure on TOCs and usually only get things done by going through the press (e.g. FGW on the Bristol peak hour trains and rolling stock not being utilised), I felt very strongly that Simplification should not be allowed to be used for price rises and took action accordingly

 

[Max]

I have made a few enquiries in the last couple of days, and written a few emails to companies and individuals to raise the point that tickets that I frequently buy are, for me, increasing in price fairly significantly. So far, I've had two responses. Firstly ATOC's, which frankly I find to be totally inadequate. I've highlighted what I think are key bits:

Dear sir.

Thank you for your email regarding the recent announcement about 'Simpler Rail Fares".

In noting and appreciating your questions, I feel I should mention that fares simplification is a rail industry initiative and ATOC has introduced the changes on behalf of the Train Companies. However, the only changes are to ticket names to make it easier for passengers to understand the ticket they are purchasing. It is not intended that fares will increase or ticket restrictions change as a result of the changes to ticket names.

You are correct in stating that Saver tickets will be renamed 'Off-Peak'. Many unrestricted Saver tickets will be renamed 'Anytime' tickets. It will be up to each Train Company to decide whether to introduce any related conditions of issue or to take a different approach. [ATOC apparently blaming Northern alone for these issues?]

The new 'Off-Peak' ticket name will be universal, but time restrictions will be decided by each Train Operating Company as now. Generally time restrictions will not change.

Cheap Day Returns will be renamed 'Off-Peak Day' Returns.

For off-peak journeys the ticket choice will generally be 'Off-Peak' (replacing Saver) and 'Off-Peak Day' (replacing Cheap Day Returns).

Where there is more than one 'Off-Peak' fare for a journey, the cheaper fare with more restrictions will be named 'Super Off-Peak'.

As you have found out, the appropriate ticket for your journey, by changing name now comes under a different minimum fare category. It is not our intention nor indeed any of the Train Operating Companies either, to lie to you. The basic fare is staying the same.

I am sorry that you you feel aggrieved enough to e-mail us, but this only affects a relatively small amount of passengers. [So this makes it ok for the promotional material to state that fares will rise for nobody, just because only a few are affected? Frankly I would have thought it was far more than 'a few'!] The Railcard is designed as a leisure time product and that is why we have the minimum fare.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. I know this is not the answer you were looking for .

Yours sincerely

Simon Bales

Another person I contacted was Chairman of the local Rail Users' Association. He seemed suprised and concerned at the revelations, but as Glynn has mentioned above, apparently virtually powerless to do anything:

Dear Mr Laverack

Thanks for your message left on my answerphone and for your email. I saw the website version of the Daily Telegraph article that you mention. One item in that article that was a matter of concern was that a railcard discount would not be available for a ticket below a specified minimum value. This was news to me. Another area of concern is that 'off-peak' tickets (e.g. currently cheap day returns) that are currently restricted only from the morning peaks may become subject to evening off-peak service restrictions. Cheap day returns in our area don't usually have evening restrictions, although there was a time in Arriva Trains Northern days when such a restriction was imposed for example on the Hull - Scarborough route but only for a short time.

I suspect that your case will be just one of many fare increases resulting from the new "simplified" fare structures from 7th September. Our Association's next committee meeting will be held on Tuesday 9th September in Hull; this subject will be an item on the agenda. However, there's not much that we can do about it in the short term, as it's a "done deal" between ATOC and the member TOCs. I'm not sure how or if the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) has been involved in this. I haven't yet checked the Passenger Focus website for their latest view on the subject.

Thanks for taking the trouble to contact me. I would be grateful to receive copies of any feedback that you receive from Northern Rail, Passenger Focus and ATOC.

Regards

Tony Ross
Secretary
Hull & East Riding Rail Users' Association

All very interesting. Strangely enough, when speaking on the phone with somebody at Northern Rail on Monday, there seemed to be little, if any awareness that this was happening. The man was very sympathetic, but said that until I had told him of the imminent fare rises he had not been aware of the situation.

 

[yorkie]

Max, perhaps you could ask Simon Bales to answer this question, "If, and I quote "It is not intended that fares will increase or ticket restrictions change as a result of the changes to ticket names." can you explain what has happened to London Midland fares? because it looks like exactly that has happened!"

It's also worth asking which fares are now protected/regulated - previously it was all Savers - is there a list? Who is keeping track of it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All very interesting. Strangely enough, when speaking on the phone with somebody at Northern Rail on Monday, there seemed to be little, if any awareness that this was happening. The man was very sympathetic, but said that until I had told him of the imminent fare rises he had not been aware of the situation.

Northern are aware of it but are NOT keen for it to be made public, and apparently not interested in telling their staff about it. Only if you pester them enough and get them to speak to a manager... So Northern only have themselves to blame that they got bad publicity. They had the chance to either apologise and promise to fix it, OR they could have admitted it and publicised the fact themselves. They chose to do neither, so we had to take action, and I'm glad we did. It was clearly the right thing to do and in the public interest.

 

[glynn80]

In the printed version of the article ATOC states 1 in 10000 passengers will be affected.

Again Max I would press with Northern customer services and if you want to contact me personally I will explain why.

 

[yorkie]

In the printed version of the article ATOC states 1 in 10000 passengers will be affected.

Again Max I would press with Northern customer services and if you want to contact me personally I will explain why.

How do they calculate that?

ATOC have stated that 2.2 million passengers have railcards. A significant number must be 16-25 railcard holders, at least 1 million I'd have thought.

Saver tickets are extremely popular, and railcard holders are likely to travel frequently. So I think it is sensible to conclude that a lot of journeys are made on 16-25 discounted Savers! Even if you then limit it to those who commence their journeys before 10am on Northern and London Midland, it must still be a fairly significant number of people! Many thousands, for sure. For those thousands of people this is a fare rise. Giving them a load of waffle and gibberish saying it is not really a fare rise, when at the end of the day their fare has risen, is not sensible and does no-one any favours.

 

[alex57601]

How will they benefit you?

What is it you are not convinced of?

*Regrets ever opening his mouth*

I thought I'd made it clear in my original posting. Let me explain it again...

The changes will benefit me as I get less restrictions and more flexible return options on an Anytime Return ticket for the same price as the current Standard Day Return ticket for Wigan-Lancaster

If you think I'm going to be worse off then so be it.

But you must accept that not everyone is going to be worse off with these changes, and I for one am not convinced that I am going to be worse off come next week than I am now. Not everyone uses/eligible to use a railcard you know, and neither do they all necessarily travel during the peak period, and you seem to be peddling the same arguments all the time based on scenarios that only a percentage of rail users will be directly affected by.

Nothing personal mate, just explaining the situation how I see it.