TFL Byelaw 17: Advice Needed for RPI Complaint

[disgruntled111]

Evening All,

I've scoured through many threads and posts on here and google and thought the only way to get esteemed advice was to put up this thread. I thank you all for your time and advice in advance.

December last year I was summoned to court for a July offence for 'compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket' contrary to Byelaw 17(1) of Transport for London Railway Byelaws etc.
That evening I travelled from Canada Water to Norwood Junction, on attempting to exit the barriers I tapped my Oyster and it wouldn't allow me to leave so I called the female attendant who informed me the oyster wasn't validated at the start of my journey. She checked the oyster and saw that I had a travel card (Z2 and 3) and PAYG balance to cover my journey.

She suggested to be careful mixing bank cards with the oyster; then an RPI rudely intervened, taking the oyster card from the attendant and checked it on his portable device. He also stated that my journey wasn't validated from the start, asked if the oyster was the card I travelled with from the start of the journey - I said yes. He then proceeded to get very rude and aggressive. Initially he said he'll give me an £80 fine then as the exchange went on he said I will be prosecuted and summoned to court amongst other unsavoury comments, while I duly complied and kept my calm.

I was not given a caution re PACE. I waited for the letter. Unfortunately, I forgot this was sent to my mother's address so I received the Single Justice Procedure Notice (sent on 27 Nov) too late to make an appeal or an out of time appeal - it was received 5 days before the hearing. I was prepared to go to court either way but upon asking for CCTV and Travel History from TFL due to the time lapse, they were only able to provide my product history confirming I had a valid travelcard and balance on my oyster for the July offence. Furthermore, the Witness statement from the RPI repeated a snippet of our conversation convenient to prosecution (remember I had no caution re PACE) and there was no mention of the valid travelcard I had. I called the court and they advised me the hearing will still go ahead on the set date.

Low and behold the day before the hearing, I received the Notice of Fine and Collection order for £473. Again I called the court and they said as I was found guilty in absence (I was out of time to send a response) and the only way forward was to accept the fine and pay. I am due to complete final payment just to avoid it affecting my record etc but I am ready to address this matter in a complaint against the RPI as it was due to his incompetence that I received the fine. But don't know where to start!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I'm not clear how the RPI didn't do his job correctly?

The root of the issue is that you did not ensure you received the letter, and by doing so you allowed the matter to escalate.

 

[disgruntled111]

Sorry, I'm not clear how the RPI didn't do his job correctly?

The root of the issue is that you did not ensure you received the letter, and by doing so you allowed the matter to escalate.

Thank you for responding @Bletchleyite - his witness statement was false. He stated the oyster had insufficient funds, which the product history obtained from TFL shows otherwise; there was both a travelcard and a balance on the Oyster even though it was not validated at the start of the journey for whatsoever reason. Would this be enough to levy a complaint?
I agree I should have ensured I received the letter on time.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The first point to clarify is the process through the Courts. That is now complete - the Offence has been proved and a Sentence has been given, so you are now a convicted person. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it might only be by acknowledging this fact, does it becomes clear that whatever evidence was presented to the Court (incl. that Witness Statement), and how it was gathered (the method of interview at the time of the incident), is now all a matter of accepted fact. Even by not paying the fine does not re-open a case that has been 'disposed'.

If you are still within the 21 days to Appeal, then you are entitled to lodge an Appeal to the Court Office, but I strongly advise getting assurance from a local law firm that they can see that you have adequately persuasive Evidence which the Court has not seen which would give that Appeal a reasonable prospect of success. I am not persuaded based on your report on here. The cost of the Court Fee plus the cost of a legal representative will be more than the Fine and costs which have already been awarded against you.

The next thing to consider is exactly what outcome you want from a complaint. Perhaps you want a one to one discussion with someone in the Company, perhaps you want some correspondence to go back and forth, perhaps you want to attempt a new legal claim through the Courts. I can see difficulties with all three, but it's hard to advise without knowing what outcome you wish for. Perhaps you just want your anger to be heard and receive some sympathy?

If you can advise further, then someone might be able to help with a more useful response.

 

[disgruntled111]

The first point to clarify is the process through the Courts. That is now complete - the Offence has been proved and a Sentence has been given, so you are now a convicted person. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it might only be by acknowledging this fact, does it becomes clear that whatever evidence was presented to the Court (incl. that Witness Statement), and how it was gathered (the method of interview at the time of the incident), is now all a matter of accepted fact. Even by not paying the fine does not re-open a case that has been 'disposed'.

The next thing to consider is exactly what outcome you want from a complaint. Perhaps you want a one to one discussion with someone in the Company, perhaps you want some correspondence to go back and forth, perhaps you want to attempt a new legal claim through the Courts. I can see difficulties with all three, but it's hard to advise without knowing what outcome you wish for. Perhaps you just want your anger to be heard and receive some sympathy?

If you can advise further, then someone might be able to help with a more useful response.

Thank you @DaveNewcastle for your response. As harsh as it sounds, your statement regarding being convicted is the truth lol.
I was hoping that putting forward a complaint with the evidence that my oyster did have sufficient funds would instigate an investigation into the case, the RPI be re-trained on dealing with customer's better and the big ask would be a refund of the fine. The RPI portable device should have seen that I had the suitable travelling documentation and was not attempting to evade any fare. One can dream right or is this a done deal now?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you @DaveNewcastle for your response. As harsh as it sounds, your statement regarding being convicted is the truth lol.
I was hoping that putting forward a complaint with the evidence that my oyster did have sufficient funds would instigate an investigation into the case, the RPI be re-trained on dealing with customer's better and the big ask would be a refund of the fine. The RPI portable device should have seen that I had the suitable travelling documentation and was not attempting to evade any fare. One can dream right or is this a done deal now?

It’s a done deal.

You’re convicted of a criminal offence by the Magistrates’ Court and you can only overturn the verdict on appeal - you will need a good, specialist solicitor which will cost you a fair old sum.

You can complain about the RPI to TfL (I assume it was their RPI), but nothing of substance will come from it that will benefit you.

 

[disgruntled111]

It’s a done deal.

You’re convicted of a criminal offence by the Magistrates’ Court and you can only overturn the verdict on appeal - you will need a good, specialist solicitor which will cost you a fair old sum.

You can complain about the RPI to TfL (I assume it was their RPI), but nothing of substance will come from it that will benefit you.

Thank you @AlterEgo for your honest response. I am highly disappointed to say the least - so ultimately your fate is sealed if you miss the 21 day appeal window, unless you can afford for specialist legal representation to help in revisiting the conviction decision with an appeal?
Can anyone advise on why are RPIs allowed to treat customer's with such disdain? There seems to be no protection for the customer from the treatment I experienced neither reprimand for falsified witness statements.

 

[Clip]

The tfl byelaws are clear that even with a travel ard or season loAdès on your card you must touch in and out. I' unsure what you need to complain about?

 

[MikeWh]

The RPI portable device should have seen that I had the suitable travelling documentation and was not attempting to evade any fare.

I'm going to be harsh again by stating that you did not have suitable travelling documentation. When you attempted to touch out your card was not within the zones covered by your travelcard and the system had no way of knowing where you had started your journey. For all it knew you might have travelled from Gatwick Airport. This is why it is imperative that you touch in and out on any journey where PAYG may be used for all or part of the fare.

 

[jumble]

I will also be harsh but this may help someone else in future.
My guess ( and it is totally a guess) from what you have written is that having been offered the chance to settle for £80.00 ( which is really £40.00 ) you did not compliantly accept but carried on arguing which wound the RPI up so much that he decided to withdraw the PF and report you instead.
Perhaps someone who knows will advise if RPIs ever offer a PF and if the traveller then shuts their mouth does the RPI change their mind ( assuming of course no further evidence comes to light )
Jumble

 

[bb21]

Continuing to argue and refusing to accept that one has done wrong shows no intention to accept the consequences of their actions, so can be interpreted as intent to avoid paying the correct fare, for which a report for prosecution is more appropriate. So yes, the RPI is entitled to change his mind as the actions of the customer have now brought more information to light.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

To the OP - it's all hearsay now but why did you not touch in at Canada Water? How did you get through the barriers - unless of course you changed trains from the Jubilee line to the Overground?

 

[falcon]

Evening All,



Low and behold the day before the hearing, I received the Notice of Fine and Collection order for £473. Again I called the court and they said as I was found guilty in absence (I was out of time to send a response) and the only way forward was to accept the fine and pay.

I don't understand this part!
Did you contact the court and they said to you that a hearing date was****. Then the day before that hearing date you were convicted in your absence? How? if the hearing date was the next day.

Also do you have a copy of the RPI's statement that was to be tendered in evidence?

Did you want to fight the case in court but are saying you have been denied that right in some way that is no fault of your own?

 

[Nick66]

I don't understand this part!
Did you contact the court and they said to you that a hearing date was****. Then the day before that hearing date you were convicted in your absence? How? if the hearing date was the next day.

That’s the bit I didn’t understand either, did you mean the day after the hearing?

As for touching in and out, I have a zone 1-3 Travelcard on my Oyster but always touch in and out even if not leaving those zones if the barriers are open or on a stand-alone validator simply because it is a good habit to get into. I still sometimes see missing touches on my journey history however, so some touches clearly aren’t registering which doesn’t cost me anything but would with PAYG. I think you may have been unlucky that an RPI was present as normally you would have got out but had a maximum fare deducted for an incomplete journey which you would have been able to get refunded online or via the helpdesk. You were however in the wrong because you didn’t have a *validated* Oyster card for your *entire* journey. Question for those in the know: are the gatelines reprogrammed when an RPI is present to prevent people who hadn’t touched in from exiting?

 

[island]

Norwood Junction’s in zone 4, so a non-touched in Oyster card with a 2-3 Travelcard was invalid once the passenger left Sydenham.

It is possible for ticket gates to be programmed to behave differently when RPIs are present – recall the disastrous nonsense at London Bridge when OEPs were still a thing. However, I think it’s more likely that the OP had insufficient credit to deduct a maximum journe charge.

 

[PeterC]

That’s the bit I didn’t understand either, did you mean the day after the hearing?

As for touching in and out, I have a zone 1-3 Travelcard on my Oyster but always touch in and out even if not leaving those zones if the barriers are open or on a stand-alone validator simply because it is a good habit to get into. I still sometimes see missing touches on my journey history however, so some touches clearly aren’t registering which doesn’t cost me anything but would with PAYG. I think you may have been unlucky that an RPI was present as normally you would have got out but had a maximum fare deducted for an incomplete journey which you would have been able to get refunded online or via the helpdesk. You were however in the wrong because you didn’t have a *validated* Oyster card for your *entire* journey. Question for those in the know: are the gatelines reprogrammed when an RPI is present to prevent people who hadn’t touched in from exiting?

A habit that I always tried to maintain when I commuted with a travelcard as well.
Because you can touch out without penalty within the validity of a travelcard without touching in (perhaps at an unbarriered station) this is something that has the potential for catching out anybody who travels beyond their zones. I had never looked into this in detail but the early Oyster publicity (my card dates from when it was only for Underground and buses) left me with the impression that, in this situation, I would have just been hit with the fare from the zone boundary.

 

[disgruntled111]

Thank you all so much for your responses and advice! I will be responding to the questions presented today once I'm properly awake I will post up the RPI statement also. Thanks again

 

[PeterC]

I'm going to be harsh again by stating that you did not have suitable travelling documentation. When you attempted to touch out your card was not within the zones covered by your travelcard and the system had no way of knowing where you had started your journey. For all it knew you might have travelled from Gatwick Airport. This is why it is imperative that you touch in and out on any journey where PAYG may be used for all or part of the fare.

@MikeWh I think that you need to update your own site. On mixing travelcard and PAYG you say:

If you don’t touch in within your zones and then touch out outside of your zones you will be charged a reduced maximum fare which will not count towards any daily cap. Likewise if you touch in outside your zones and forget to touch out again at the end of your journey.

 

[Nick66]

@MikeWh I think that you need to update your own site. On mixing travelcard and PAYG you say:

I don’t want to start a fight between members but as far as I am aware Mike’s advice is correct. If you don’t touch in within your zones you haven’t got a validated Oyster card outside. It was my post you replied to saying you’ll only be charged from the zone boundary and I didn’t reply at the time because I wasn’t certain that wasn’t the case but I found your last post a little harsh.

 

[MikeWh]

@MikeWh I think that you need to update your own site. On mixing travelcard and PAYG you say:

There's nothing wrong with that quote from my site. However, what appears to have happened here is that the card didn't have enough money for the maximum fare so the gate rejected it as it was an exit.

 

[Mojo]

As Mike says, if you haven’t touched in, and have insufficient balance to pay the Maxmium fare, the gates will not open.

Similarly if you have not touched in, and are found to be travelling outside of the paid for zones on a manual check by an Inspector, then you will be liable for a Penalty fare, or prosecution.