TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Wallsendmag]

The option to buy a ticket to a destination of London Z1-2 no longer exists for Northwich.

What I was referring to, is this option that comes up after you selected an Off Peak Return for London. Even if I enter a return date of the same day as the outbound date, it comes up with Travelcard options starting at £15.20 for a one day Travelcard.

It does if you use the correct destination Zones U12 bit that’s not a Travelcard. All out boundary Travelcards have a destination of Zones R1256

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does if you use the correct destination Zones U12 bit that’s not a Travelcard. All out boundary Travelcards have a destination of Zones R1256

And, with the odd exception, outboundary Travelcards are only available from stations in the former Network SouthEast area or on flows priced by TOCs primarily serving that area, which Northwich isn't.

 

[Deerfold]

The option to buy a ticket to a destination of London Z1-2 no longer exists for Northwich.

What I was referring to, is this option that comes up after you selected an Off Peak Return for London. Even if I enter a return date of the same day as the outbound date, it comes up with Travelcard options starting at £15.20 for a one day Travelcard.

Yes, I deliberately only quoted the part of your post I was referring to.

They are inboundary travelcards offered at an additional fare.

 

[Sonic1234]

GWR seem to offer them from their stations, even beyond the NSE boundary. You could say places like Swindon are "effectively NSE" though.

Not sure how many will want the Penzance to London 1-6 Travelcard though.

 

[Wallsendmag]

And, with the odd exception, outboundary Travelcards are only available from stations in the former Network SouthEast area or on flows priced by TOCs primarily serving that area, which Northwich isn't.

GWR seem to offer them from their stations, even beyond the NSE boundary. You could say places like Swindon are "effectively NSE" though.

Not sure how many will want the Penzance to London 1-6 Travelcard though.

As do quite a few LNER stations

 

[Bletchleyite]

As do quite a few LNER stations

Point was purely that not every station does, I wouldn't overly expect a random Northern station with no direct London service to have one.

 

[island]

They aren’t printing separate tickets in the main they are buying a ticket from home to zones R1256 for the same price as a ticket to the London terminal.

It does if you use the correct destination Zones U12 bit that’s not a Travelcard. All out boundary Travelcards have a destination of Zones R1256

The "Zones R####" destinations for Travelcards such as NLC 0035 have not been printed as such for many years. They are printed "London Zones X-Y". Travelcards still print in the pre-2014 style.

The single/return destinations such as "Zone U12* Londn" NLC 0790, or more commonly in the post-2014 style tickets "London Underground Zones 1-2".

(just for the benefit of anyone who has no idea what "R1256" is.)

[NLC = National Location Code]

 

[redreni]

I have come late to this. I'm old enough to remember back to before the NSE launch, how Capitalcard/travelcard transformed railway travel and how it contributed to the transformation of the London economy more generally. I thought I'd start with some quotes from Chris Green in his book The Network SouthEast Story.





This demonstrates how the simplicity of travelcard will be lost. Many people from outside London swan around London on their travelcards, knowing little and caring less about PAYG and caps. Some will carry on travelling, including those that can swan around London using contactless payment without any concern for how much they have spent, and those that can be bothered to get their heads round TfL's fare system. But others will think "too difficult" and do something else instead, or stay at home.


And this demonstrates how the change will lead to more cost for those travelling in from outside London. In the "cost of living crisis" that means many people saving money by not making discretionary trips if the cost goes up too much.


I don't know if there is ignorance but I do wonder what assessment has been made of the negative economic impact, not just on TfL, but also on the ex NSE TOCs and on the London economy more generally, especially the tourism and hospitality industries.

That doesn't just apply to the discretionary day trips, it also applies to people coming into London on business. I was commuting in the 1980s and remember how Capitalcard transformed my social life. Before Capitalcard I usually went home directly from work, after Capitalcard I went to concerts in the evening, or had evenings out with friends in pubs that were mutually convenient for our homeward journeys. Lots of people in London for business will revert to heading for home after the business is done, without stopping to spend money in the London economy.

If travelcards are withdrawn then I would expect a similar impact on travel to that described by Chris Green, but in the opposite direction, and a big hit on tourism and hospitality in London.

Funnily enough the pandemic fixed that issue for me. Beforehand I had a London Terminals season ticket that limited my flexibility (although it was valid from Victoria, Charing Cross, Waterloo East, London Bridge, City Thameslink, Blackfriars and Cannon Street so most after-work drinks were fine and didn't cause me to incur an extra fare).

Post-pandemic I use contactless. Two bus fares to/from Abbey Wood plus the two single train fares cause me to reach the daily cap, so I have unlimited flexibility to make additional journeys within zones 1-4, or by bus anywhere, without incurring any extra cost. (Not that worrying about public transport fares is even rational given the price of drinks!)

 

[K.o.R]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but does this mean that the discounted river boat fares for people with travelcards are now far less available?

 

[Bikeman78]

Indeed, the possibilities are "disabled Railcard" or "NR Railcard".

In over nine years of holding an Oyster card with a Railcard discount attached I was never once asked to produce the Railcard.

The last time I saw a ticket inspector on a tube train was on 1962 stock. Must be about 25 years ago.

 

[MikeWM]

Then get an Oyster and credit it using cash.

*I* will (indeed I already have an Oyster with some positive balance on it, which I've never had the occasion to use so far). But that doesn't answer the hypothetical conversation you posted, where someone outside London wants a day return 'with the Tube included', as they usually seem to phrase it.

--

I'm with you on this. There are also people who pay by card, but always put the card in a reader and enter their PIN, never using contactless payment.

I do that too, not because of any security reasons, but because I was always wary that contactless would eventually morph into a 'take whatever payment you think you should without me authorising a specific amount' system - as indeed we're now discussing here.

Though even that is rare nowadays because I'm (ideologically, and also because I prefer to be) using cash for most things. The last time I had to enter the PIN for my credit card I realised it had been so long since I'd done so that I'd almost forgotten it!

I won't give up on London completely, but everyone I meet there will need to agree a venue within walking distance of a Thameslink station or Liverpool Street.

Ditto.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting quite keen on spending time investigating some of the interesting things on the side streets of central London that I miss out on when I take the tube. Which won't help Khan's coffers one bit, but that's hardly my fault.

 

[redreni]

It wasn't a consultation, it was an information gathering exercise merely to identify who was affected, and whether there was any further mitigation needed.

People from outside London having to pay more is not TfL's problem.

No, but it's the Mayor's problem if it causes them to visit less often or if it causes them to switch modes train to car. He has wider legal and social responsibilities than just TfL's revenue.

London is not Belgrade, nor is anyone (as far as I know) suggesting making public transport ticketing rubbish for visitors will put off foreign tourists from visiting. They can get visitor oyster cards posted to them before they come, in any case. It's more people in the home counties with free time and money to spend who *could* get the train into London at the weekend but could equally easily go somewhere else.

If they stay away it damages London's economy and if they drive in it congests London's roads and pollutes London's air - again issues that are not TfL's problem but do fall within the Mayor's responsibilities.

 

[fandroid]

I actually gave up on paper Travelcards. First because I had got really accustomed to etickets and a visit to a ticket machine with an inscrutable reference number hidden somewhere else on my phone was no longer an attractive proposition. Second, I was finding that the magstripe would get corrupted and asking to be let through at every ticket gate was pure tedium.

I finally found the magic of a TOC Smartcard and returned to one day Travelcards. I'll savour the next five months when I can still travel to London with such a simple solution.

Here's hoping that some form of pretend Oyster or contactless can be loaded onto my Smartcard to allow my carefree travel to continue after December

As contactless expands, especially with Railcard discounts added, then I expect the prognostications of doom will be proved wrong. TfL would need to get busy on a PR campaign to promote their use at every station outside London that is newly added to the contactless area. That should sweep up the majority of one day Travelcard users, and it will be the longer distance TOCs that will lose the revenue, rather than TfL.

 

[zoneking]

To me, the advantage of paper travelcards is that you can't be caught out or fined (charged full fare or penalty) if you forget to tap in/out. I am a very forgetful person.

 

[crablab]

I finally found the magic of a TOC Smartcard and returned to one day Travelcards. I'll savour the next five months when I can still travel to London with such a simple solution.

Unfortunately it's very hit and miss whether TOCs will issue Day Travelcards on a smartcard. GWR will only do period Travelcards, and I believe SWR only do Anytime Travelcards.

 

[Starmill]

No, but it's the Mayor's problem if it causes them to visit less often or if it causes them to switch modes train to car. He has wider legal and social responsibilities than just TfL's revenue.

London is not Belgrade, nor is anyone (as far as I know) suggesting making public transport ticketing rubbish for visitors will put off foreign tourists from visiting. They can get visitor oyster cards posted to them before they come, in any case. It's more people in the home counties with free time and money to spend who *could* get the train into London at the weekend but could equally easily go somewhere else.

If they stay away it damages London's economy and if they drive in it congests London's roads and pollutes London's air - again issues that are not TfL's problem but do fall within the Mayor's responsibilities.

The bet is that people won't drive within London, or not much at least. That largely will be true. You're right that TfL's choices could lead to more driving on roads outside of London by people who don't live in London, but that's absolutely nothing to do with them.

If people from the home counties drive and still want to reach London they'll probably park near a London Underground station anyway.

 

[hkstudent]

The bet is that people won't drive within London, or not much at least. That largely will be true. You're right that TfL's choices could lead to more driving on roads outside of London by people who don't live in London, but that's absolutely nothing to do with them.

If people from the home counties drive and still want to reach London they'll probably park near a London Underground station anyway.

Indeed, congestion charge plus high parking charge in Central London do put off driving into Central London.
If people park at those shopping malls in Inner London for continuing a LU journey to central London, there’s no loss in TfL revenue, or even slightly earning as getting longer distance on TfL journeys.

 

[Surreytraveller]

They can get an Oyster and load it with the value of the daily cap using cash.

Or even one of those pre-pay debit cards and use it as contactless

 

[Western Sunset]

So with the ending of Travelcards, will I have to open an account with TfL before I use my contactless card to pay for a journey?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

So with the ending of Travelcards, will I have to open an account with TfL before I use my contactless card to pay for a journey?

No.

 

[Deerfold]

So with the ending of Travelcards, will I have to open an account with TfL before I use my contactless card to pay for a journey?

No, only if you want to see how it's worked out what you're charged - and you can open the account after you start using it.

 

[redreni]

Indeed, congestion charge plus high parking charge in Central London do put off driving into Central London.
If people park at those shopping malls in Inner London for continuing a LU journey to central London, there’s no loss in TfL revenue, or even slightly earning as getting longer distance on TfL journeys.

Well the congestion charge is 12pm to 6pm at weekends so options for avoiding it (assuming your vehicle isn't exempt) include:

• parking on the fringes of the zone (e.g. Belgravia in the west or St Katherine Dock in the east, or round the back of Euston/St Pancras in the north) - usually free of charge, especially on Sundays - and continuing on foot or by bus;
• driving into the zone but leaving before 12pm;
• driving into the zone before 12pm, parking (again, free on Sundays in many places) and not moving your car again until after 6pm (since the charge is for driving in the zone rather than being parked in it); and
• driving in after 6pm (e.g. to go for a meal / and or to go to the theatre - parking after 6.30pm is free in the west end).

These are all tricks that are known to many Londoners and regular visitors from outside (and I would emphasise, as a Network Railcard holder living in zone 6, that Londoners aren't necessarily exempt from a dramatically negative effect of this policy on fares). When I park on London streets at the weekend it's quite evident to me that I'm not the only one doing it, but equally there is capacity for more people to do it if the incentives push them that way.

Edit: Worth adding that if there's four or five of you in one car, the tube fares multiply (especially given TfL's inability, other than through paper travelcards, to offer discounts to adult passengers travelling with a railcard holder) but the congestion charge doesn't, so it can be cheaper to just pay the congestion charge.

Even if people park a bit further out and travel in by tube as you suggest, while TfL might not lose revenue, the Mayor is still responsible for traffic congestion and air quality in places like Shepherds Bush and Stratford.

And while it's not TfL's problem if people from the Home Counties avoid London altogether and drive or take the train elsewhere (though TfL does lose revenue in that case), the Mayor is surely responsible for the local economy in London? It most definitely is his problem.

And if I, a car owner living in zone 6 near the Kent border, decide to drive to a destination in Kent rather than stay in London, in addition to TfL's lost revenue and the general loss to the London economy that's two additional car trips starting or finishing in London, which is also the Mayor's problem as he's committed to reducing the number of those.

 

[Cowley]

This is not a nag at anyone in particular but it’s probably worth setting out what we need the thread to be as it’s been getting a little speculative at times - for instance talking about individual preferences on things like e-tickets etc.

It's probably too tricky to split that stuff out now but for such an important thread we really need it to stay on topic from here if possible.

Thanks everyone

 

[A0wen]

If people from the home counties drive and still want to reach London they'll probably park near a London Underground station anyway.

Won't they have to drive into London to do that?

Not necessarily - the Central Line north of Woodford is in Essex, Met north of Northwood is in Herts and Bucks.

 

[Starmill]

Not necessarily - the Central Line north of Woodford is in Essex, Met north of Northwood is in Herts and Bucks.

Indeed, or one of the other stations just over the border where driving in London wouldn't be very much, as I said.

 

[redreni]

Indeed, or one of the other stations just over the border where driving in London wouldn't be very much, as I said.

The Mayor is very, very concerned about air quality in outer London Boroughs when it comes to charging motorists. Concern that appears diminished when he's approving a policy likely to cause an increase in car traffic in those very places.

Parking in the residential streets around Abbey Wood station at the weekend has virtually become a competitive sport since the Elizabeth Line opened.

 

[bicbasher]

A friend of mine who lives on the Isle of Wight regularly comes up to London for work or to see shows in the West End would drive up to Dartford or Swanley (because they have Oyster/Contactless) to get into London and if using Dartford station would change at Abbey Wood using Southeastern and the Elizabeth line, but last time round she went to Reading instead.

Now I suggested she got the paper travelcard from Reading, but all she wanted to do was a point to point trip from Reading to Bond Street without having to change at Paddington and used her contactless card instead. She loved the simplicity of using both a TfL service she recognised as being able to use her debit card and convienence of using the EL.

 

[Surreytraveller]

You are missing something. Most outboundary Travelcards (effectively a combined ticket to the boundary and Travelcard) are priced only a few pounds more than a return to London, so the Travelcard element is very cheap indeed.

The vast majority of out-boundary Travelcard users are only doing one return journey within Zone 1. Which probably could be walked.

 

[Starmill]

The Mayor is very, very concerned about air quality in outer London Boroughs when it comes to charging motorists. Concern that appears diminished when he's approving a policy likely to cause an increase in car traffic in those very places.

Parking in the residential streets around Abbey Wood station at the weekend has virtually become a competitive sport since the Elizabeth Line opened.

Sure, it's concerning, but nearly all petrol-fuelled cars can be driven without charge into outer London.

Personally I'd have said a boundary charge for private motorists was absolutely appropriate to combat this.

A friend of mine who lives on the Isle of Wight regularly comes up to London for work or to see shows in the West End would drive up to Dartford or Swanley (because they have Oyster/Contactless) to get into London and if using Dartford station would change at Abbey Wood using Southeastern and the Elizabeth line, but last time round she went to Reading instead.

Now I suggested she got the paper travelcard from Reading, but all she wanted to do was a point to point trip from Reading to Bond Street without having to change at Paddington and used her contactless card instead. She loved the simplicity of using both a TfL service she recognised as being able to use her debit card and convienence of using the EL.

If that's what works for them then obviously that's great. However would it really work for most people to spend 60 minutes on a class 345? They're very basic and that's a very slow journey.

 

[Hadders]

A friend of mine who lives on the Isle of Wight regularly comes up to London for work or to see shows in the West End would drive up to Dartford or Swanley (because they have Oyster/Contactless) to get into London and if using Dartford station would change at Abbey Wood using Southeastern and the Elizabeth line, but last time round she went to Reading instead.

Now I suggested she got the paper travelcard from Reading, but all she wanted to do was a point to point trip from Reading to Bond Street without having to change at Paddington and used her contactless card instead. She loved the simplicity of using both a TfL service she recognised as being able to use her debit card and convienence of using the EL.

Reading is one of a handful of stations outside London where contactless can be used. The number is being expanded but it won’t ever cover all of the stations from which you can currently purchase an outboundary Travelcard.

Also, railcard discounts cannot be added to contactless payment.