TFW Rail Services to be taken in house by Welsh Government

[Caaardiff]

Isn't TfW by far the biggest operator at Shrewsbury and Chester along with having big train crew bases and overnight parking at each?

 

[py_megapixel]

Isn't TfW by far the biggest operator at Shrewsbury and Chester along with having big train crew bases and overnight parking at each?

Yes, but when has what makes logical sense operationally ever gotten in the way of politics?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but when has what makes logical sense operationally ever gotten in the way of politics?

Why should the Welsh Government manage an English station, though?

Mind you there are European examples. Basel Badischer Bahnhof is a DB station in Switzerland.

The best thing might be to make them Network Rail operated, but they don't usually concern themselves with smaller stations. If they did the quality would no doubt increase, though. Liverpool Lime St for example is a much nicer station since NR took it over.

 

[bramling]

Why should the Welsh Government manage an English station, though?

Mind you there are European examples. Basel Badischer Bahnhof is a DB station in Switzerland.

The best thing might be to make them Network Rail operated, but they don't usually concern themselves with smaller stations. If they did the quality would no doubt increase, though. Liverpool Lime St for example is a much nicer station since NR took it over.

What happens with Leominster, Ludlow, Craven Arms and Church Stretton, which are English stations served only by TfW? For that matter there’s a couple of others like Lydney, Broome, Hopton Heath, Bucknell and of course the oddity of Knighton.

Whatever is done is going to be messy somewhere simply because of the way this area is laid out. Does it really matter that much?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder which TOC carries most passengers at the 3 under discussion (rather than those TfW only ones which would be a bit like the way Lockerbie is operated by ScotRail but has none of its trains stopping there)?

Wouldn't be totally surprised if it was Merseyrail at Chester by some considerable margin (though a station like that is probably too complex for them to take on as they don't have the experience), and probably WMT at the other two.

 

[Llanigraham]

What happens with Leominster, Ludlow, Craven Arms and Church Stretton, which are English stations served only by TfW? For that matter there’s a couple of others like Lydney, Broome, Hopton Heath, Bucknell and of course the oddity of Knighton.

Whatever is done is going to be messy somewhere simply because of the way this area is laid out. Does it really matter that much?

I think they are run by Network Rail, so it shouldn't make any difference.

 

[bramling]

I think they are run by Network Rail, so it shouldn't make any difference.

They will still be run by a designated TOC, which will be TfW.

It won’t really matter to the average passenger, but then it won’t at the three stations in question either yet it clearly does to someone!

 

[FrodshamJnct]

So Frodsham, Helsby and Runcorn East would go to Northern presumably?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So Frodsham, Helsby and Runcorn East would go to Northern presumably?

Are those TfW stations? I would agree those have a stronger case for being Northern than any of the originally named three.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Are those TfW stations? I would agree those have a stronger case for being Northern than any of the originally named three.

Yes, all three are TFW operated, with the only other TOC to serve them being Northern.

 

[emoaconr]

Also you've got Neston, Heswall and Upton on the Borderlands, which should go to Merseyrail, plus Lydney which obviously could not go to XC

 

[popeter45]

Also you've got Neston, Heswall and Upton on the Borderlands, which should go to Merseyrail, plus Lydney which obviously could not go to XC

prob would go to GWR as one of those weird stations owned by a TOC who doesn't serve it

 

[Llanigraham]

They will still be run by a designated TOC, which will be TfW.

It won’t really matter to the average passenger, but then it won’t at the three stations in question either yet it clearly does to someone!

I really can't see what difference it makes who runs a station, especially when it is unmanned, like a lot of those mentioned here are.
And agreed most passengers won't know and won't care as long as a train comes along.

 

[geoffk]

I make it 25 TfW-managed stations in England, those mentioned above plus Gobowen, Nantwich, Prees, Wem, Whitchurch, Yorton and Wrenbury.

 

[craigybagel]

Isn't TfW by far the biggest operator at Shrewsbury and Chester along with having big train crew bases and overnight parking at each?

Yes, but when has what makes logical sense operationally ever gotten in the way of politics?

Why should the Welsh Government manage an English station, though?

Mind you there are European examples. Basel Badischer Bahnhof is a DB station in Switzerland.

The best thing might be to make them Network Rail operated, but they don't usually concern themselves with smaller stations. If they did the quality would no doubt increase, though. Liverpool Lime St for example is a much nicer station since NR took it over.

I never quite understand the hatred amongst certain posters on this forum for the Wales and Borders franchise and it's operations in England. What bad things do they expect to happen with the stations being managed by a franchise headquartered in Cardiff? As others have pointed out, it makes sense to have those stations managed by TfW, in the same way certain all England services like Crewe - Chester/Shrewsbury are best kept within the Wales and borders franchise.

I'm not a crazed Welsh nationalist. By and large I have very little time for the Welsh Assembly. But anyone who actually works in these areas can see that it's "Wales and Borders" for a reason - and hiving off the English parts to another franchise just to keep them managed from the right side of Offa's Dyke is just ridiculous.

 

[tomuk]

I wonder which TOC carries most passengers at the 3 under discussion (rather than those TfW only ones which would be a bit like the way Lockerbie is operated by ScotRail but has none of its trains stopping there)?

Wouldn't be totally surprised if it was Merseyrail at Chester by some considerable margin (though a station like that is probably too complex for them to take on as they don't have the experience), and probably WMT at the other two.

At Shrewsbury the majority of services are run by TfW. WMT run 2tph (one during Covid) slow service to Birmingham. Avanti two trips a day to London. TfW carry the most passengers by a country mile.

In the pre franchise consultations back in 2016/2017 moving the stations to WMT was considered. At the time 83.6% of services were provided by ATW.

This hare has been sent running based on a daft question in the WA from the 'renowned' MS Mark Reckless (Abolish the Senydd Party MS, ex Brexit Party MS, ex Conservative Party MS, ex UKIP MP/MS, ex Conservative MP)

As I stated at the time I was and am concerned about appropriate governance of the 'Borders' services and stations, we can't write/lobby our MS have we haven't got any. Maybe a more prominent role for the English local authorities served by the franchise should have/be created.

I never quite understand the hatred amongst certain posters on this forum for the Wales and Borders franchise and it's operations in England. What bad things do they expect to happen with the stations being managed by a franchise headquartered in Cardiff? As others have pointed out, it makes sense to have those stations managed by TfW, in the same way certain all England services like Crewe - Chester/Shrewsbury are best kept within the Wales and borders franchise.

I'm not a crazed Welsh nationalist. By and large I have very little time for the Welsh Assembly. But anyone who actually works in these areas can see that it's "Wales and Borders" for a reason - and hiving off the English parts to another franchise just to keep them managed from the right side of Offa's Dyke is just ridiculous.

In principle I agree with what your are saying a split would be a nonsense.

But there is evidence of a bias towards wales and partuclarly Cardiff, South Wales Metro - overley complicated waste of money, just run the heavy rail services as provided for by CASR, lack of 158s on Cambrian since franchise change covering shortages in South Wales (and as for reducing their availability for repainting jeez). Bus-titution of Gobowen/Church Stretton due to WAG being unable to call. 197s there not as bad as others may suggest but basically less seats daily between Shrewsbury and Birmingham than now.

 

[py_megapixel]

What bad things do they expect to happen with the stations being managed by a franchise headquartered in Cardiff?

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with that, which is the point I was making with this post:

Yes, but when has what makes logical sense operationally ever gotten in the way of politics?

Many of these places in England are predominantly connected to Wales, and vice-versa, so operationally, serving them with the W&B franchise makes a lot of sense. Therefore, it also makes operational sense for the W&B franchise to manage the stations. So suddenly giving those stations to an arbitrary English TOC, for purely political reasons, would operationally be daft.

That is the point I was trying to make.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The DfT retains responsibility for "English services" in the W&B franchise spec, which presumably will carry over into the WG-run operation.
Infrastructure is not devolved, but Wales Route covers the Marches routes in England among others (even to the gates of Crewe).
That is except for the reach of Chester PSB which extends into Wales (Connah's Quay towards Holyhead and Gresford towards Wrexham).
ATW made no attempt to include "Borders" branding on its trains/services, at least TfW have had the grace to include it in the new livery.

I expect the concern is that with Cardiff pressing for more powers over its domestic services/routes, the affected English regions also want their needs recognised.
Spats in the Welsh Senedd usually fail to recognise the complexities of the rail settlement between the two governments.
Most of the money for the Saltney-Wrexham redoubling, for instance, was spent in England.

 

[PHILIPE]

The DfT retains responsibility for "English services" in the W&B franchise spec, which presumably will carry over into the WG-run operation.
Infrastructure is not devolved, but Wales Route covers the Marches routes in England among others (even to the gates of Crewe).
That is except for the reach of Chester PSB which extends into Wales (Connah's Quay towards Holyhead and Gresford towards Wrexham).
ATW made no attempt to include "Borders" branding on its trains/services, at least TfW have had the grace to include it in the new livery.

I expect the concern is that with Cardiff pressing for more powers over its domestic services/routes, the affected English regions also want their needs recognised.
Spats in the Welsh Senedd usually fail to recognise the complexities of the rail settlement between the two governments.
Most of the money for the Saltney-Wrexham redoubling, for instance, was spent in England.

When platform and signalling alterations to make Platform 3 at Shrewsbury bi-directional towards Sutton Bridge were made at Shrewsbury some years ago with increasing the Cambrian service in mind, the Welsh Government paid.

 

[craigybagel]

At Shrewsbury the majority of services are run by TfW. WMT run 2tph (one during Covid) slow service to Birmingham. Avanti two trips a day to London. TfW carry the most passengers by a country mile.

In the pre franchise consultations back in 2016/2017 moving the stations to WMT was considered. At the time 83.6% of services were provided by ATW.

This hare has been sent running based on a daft question in the WA from the 'renowned' MS Mark Reckless (Abolish the Senydd Party MS, ex Brexit Party MS, ex Conservative Party MS, ex UKIP MP/MS, ex Conservative MP)

As I stated at the time I was and am concerned about appropriate governance of the 'Borders' services and stations, we can't write/lobby our MS have we haven't got any. Maybe a more prominent role for the English local authorities served by the franchise should have/be created.


In principle I agree with what your are saying a split would be a nonsense.

But there is evidence of a bias towards wales and partuclarly Cardiff, South Wales Metro - overley complicated waste of money, just run the heavy rail services as provided for by CASR, lack of 158s on Cambrian since franchise change covering shortages in South Wales (and as for reducing their availability for repainting jeez). Bus-titution of Gobowen/Church Stretton due to WAG being unable to call. 197s there not as bad as others may suggest but basically less seats daily between Shrewsbury and Birmingham than now.

There are certainly issues with the way the franchise has been specified it is true. South Wales metro is indeed being done in a rather strange way, and it remains to be seen whether the dramatic changes for the network there are the right ones - but the entire TfW network is getting overhauled, not just around Cardiff. Yes that's where the majority of the funding is going, but that's where the majority of the franchises business is.

I'm not convinced by the situation with the Cambrian 158s either. The entire franchise was short of units on day one, and again since most of the business is in Cardiff, that's where the unit shortages were most acute. It wasn't just the Cambrian that suffered with 158s going south - North Wales and North West England lost some of their 175s for 150s on a regular basis. Because only 158s can go on the Cambrian, it becomes more obvious when things like that happen, but why should the Cambrian keep 100% of its units when everywhere else is short?

But say for instance the Cambrian was run by the West Midlands franchise. If they were similarly short of units across the board I'm pretty sure that if traction knowledge allowed those Cambrian 158s would have ended up being used around Birmingham to cover shortages. If the North Wales coast was run by Northern, the units there would have ended up in Manchester. Being focused on the busiest markets is not unique to the Welsh.

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with that, which is the point I was making with this post:

Many of these places in England are predominantly connected to Wales, and vice-versa, so operationally, serving them with the W&B franchise makes a lot of sense. Therefore, it also makes operational sense for the W&B franchise to manage the stations. So suddenly giving those stations to an arbitrary English TOC, for purely political reasons, would operationally be daft.

That is the point I was trying to make.

Indeed I was actually agreeing with you - I was quoting people on both sides of the debate but I realise now I should have phrased that better, my apologies.

 

[pdeaves]

The way the system is currently set up, the incumbent operator cannot unilaterally decide it doesn't want such-and-such station responsibility any more. What if the other operator(s) doesn't want to take it on? At the very least there would have to be a contract change somewhere. It's obviously not insurmountable but the way to get acceptable solutions is to engage, negotiate and compromise where necessary, not just say 'we don't want this any more'.

Other operator changes are written into franchise contracts so the appropriate companies fund them (and get funding for them) appropriately.

Who knows, maybe the local users' group may be most willing to be the proper station operator!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When the 175s arrived, ordered by First Group for FNW (with 180s for FGW), the promise was that all services in North Wales (ie via Chester to Crewe, Birmingham, Holyhead, Manchester and branches) would be operated by the 175s.
That never quite happened, as reliability was very low in the early days, and then the FNW, Central and W&W franchises got carved up into the present setup.
ATW quickly changed the plan so the 175s (including those returned from the FNW/TPE Airport services) worked the Marches route from Manchester to Cardiff, and into West Wales.
That put 2-car 158/150s back in North Wales while most of the 3-car 175s went east/south.
The North Wales service has not got back to a consistent mix since, and is probably worse now than at any time under ATW.

3-car 170s were also used by Central on Birmingham-Chester/Cambrian services (which often ran through to the East Midlands in the other direction).
Again that went down to 2-car 158s, along with the diversion of Birmingham services via Shrewsbury rather than Stafford, with longer journey times.

The main improvement in North Wales services since WG took control has actually been the more frequent West Coast services (6 a day from Holyhead, and hourly from Chester).
There is the new Liverpool direct service of course, thanks to the Liverpool City Region deal.
But overall, I wouldn't say WG control of services has been an unqualified success in North Wales.
You might get a different view from Wrexhamers, who doubled their frequency to hourly from 2004, and gained services to Holyhead and Cardiff (and now Liverpool).

 

[adrock1976]

If any stations should transfer to an England TOC, I feel that it should be the ones between Shrewsbury and Hereford to the London & North Western franchise.

As this stretch of line was jointly constructed by the LNWR and the Great Western Railway, and being as with the exception of the Chester - Holyhead route, the rest of the lines in Wales eventually became a part of the GWR of which the Wales & Borders franchise presently operates. The stations between Shrewsbury and Hereford if transferred to the West Midlands/LNW franchise would reflect the history of that route.

After all, Water Orton, Wilnecote, Burton-upon-Trent, and Willington between Birmingham and Derby only have Crosscountry trains that call, but are managed by the West and East Midlands franchises.

 

[craigybagel]

If any stations should transfer to an England TOC, I feel that it should be the ones between Shrewsbury and Hereford to the London & North Western franchise.

As this stretch of line was jointly constructed by the LNWR and the Great Western Railway, and being as with the exception of the Chester - Holyhead route, the rest of the lines in Wales eventually became a part of the GWR of which the Wales & Borders franchise presently operates. The stations between Shrewsbury and Hereford if transferred to the West Midlands/LNW franchise would reflect the history of that route.

After all, Water Orton, Wilnecote, Burton-upon-Trent, and Willington between Birmingham and Derby only have Crosscountry trains that call, but are managed by the West and East Midlands franchises.

Ancient history. The only reason for the anomaly with the Crosscountry stations is because Crosscountry don't run any stations themselves, so don't have the managerial set up to do so. Making another company responsible for stations it runs no services to because of historical reasons is bonkers, even by the standards of this forum.

 

[185]

....But anyone who actually works in these areas can see that it's "Wales and Borders" for a reason - and hiving off the English parts to another franchise just to keep them managed from the right side of Offa's Dyke is just ridiculous.

Ordinarily I would agree with this, as under normal circumstances, retaining the Manchester Cardiff, and the North Wales Coast to Manchester would be sensible, as these ordinarily lucrative routes, in the wider picture of the franchise cross-subsidise the loss making local services....

....however in recent months, with 2-car 150s turning up several times a day on busy daytime Manchester-Cardiff or Manchester/Chester-North Wales services and several evening services terminating early (ie not running through to Manchester) since March, it certainly is time to take a closer look at who is managing this franchise in Cardiff, management inherited from previous franchisees. Many frontline staff at the franchise share the view that the way they treat the entire 'North' half of the franchise urgently needs addressing.

I am aware Ken Skates was told at least once that persons in the leadership team inherited from past franchise are part of the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am aware Ken Skates was told at least once that persons in the leadership team inherited from past franchise are part of the problem.

Therein lies the problem of TUPE. If your previous contractor was rubbish, your new one will be as well as all the staff get to move over.

I understand why TUPE exists but it really does have a negative effect to the customer in many cases in order to protect the staff.

 

[craigybagel]

Ordinarily I would agree with this, as under normal circumstances, retaining the Manchester Cardiff, and the North Wales Coast to Manchester would be sensible, as these ordinarily lucrative routes, in the wider picture of the franchise cross-subsidise the loss making local services....

....however in recent months, with 2-car 150s turning up several times a day on busy daytime Manchester-Cardiff or Manchester/Chester-North Wales services and several evening services terminating early (ie not running through to Manchester) since March, it certainly is time to take a closer look at who is managing this franchise in Cardiff, management inherited from previous franchisees. Many frontline staff at the franchise share the view that the way they treat the entire 'North' half of the franchise urgently needs addressing.

I am aware Ken Skates was told at least once that persons in the leadership team inherited from past franchise are part of the problem.

But I'm not sure how things would be any better if management were based in York or Birmingham rather then Cardiff. You'd still have the same fundamental issues - 175 availability hasn't been high enough to keep 150s off long distance services, and thanks to Covid training is far behind schedule that there is a staff shortage so it's difficult to run even the current reduced timetable. I'm not saying the folks in Cardiff haven't made mistakes and that things couldn't be better - but are the other franchises that are being suggested as alternatives really any better? The other threads on these forums where those same TOCs are constantly slated suggests otherwise.

 

[Llandudno]

When the 175s arrived, ordered by First Group for FNW (with 180s for FGW), the promise was that all services in North Wales (ie via Chester to Crewe, Birmingham, Holyhead, Manchester and branches) would be operated by the 175s.
That never quite happened, as reliability was very low in the early days, and then the FNW, Central and W&W franchises got carved up into the present setup.
ATW quickly changed the plan so the 175s (including those returned from the FNW/TPE Airport services) worked the Marches route from Manchester to Cardiff, and into West Wales.
That put 2-car 158/150s back in North Wales while most of the 3-car 175s went east/south.
The North Wales service has not got back to a consistent mix since, and is probably worse now than at any time under ATW.

3-car 170s were also used by Central on Birmingham-Chester/Cambrian services (which often ran through to the East Midlands in the other direction).
Again that went down to 2-car 158s, along with the diversion of Birmingham services via Shrewsbury rather than Stafford, with longer journey times.

The main improvement in North Wales services since WG took control has actually been the more frequent West Coast services (6 a day from Holyhead, and hourly from Chester).
There is the new Liverpool direct service of course, thanks to the Liverpool City Region deal.
But overall, I wouldn't say WG control of services has been an unqualified success in North Wales.
You might get a different view from Wrexhamers, who doubled their frequency to hourly from 2004, and gained services to Holyhead and Cardiff (and now Liverpool).

Agree for the most part concerning north Wales coast services, there haven’t been many improvements yet since TfW came into being.

The timetable and stopping patterns are all over the place, no attempt at clockface headway
Connections at Chester are erratic, with long waits at certain times and almost deliberate attempts to avoid decent connections
No late eastbound trains from Holyhead/Bangor
Awful Sunday service and only an hourly Saturday evening service along the coast
Lottery if trains run on Conwy Valley line (even when no flooding)
Clapped out 2 car 150s running Holyhead/Llandudno to Chester and beyond

To be balanced they have introduced the following
Small fare reductions on north Wales coast, but still no day returns to Chester from stations west of Prestatyn
All year round Sunday service Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog
Gradual improvement and refurbishment of some stations
New signalling Chester to Llandudno Junction, not sure if it means trains can run closer together though?
Community rail initiatives

 

[berneyarms]

At Shrewsbury the majority of services are run by TfW. WMT run 2tph (one during Covid) slow service to Birmingham. Avanti two trips a day to London. TfW carry the most passengers by a country mile.

In the pre franchise consultations back in 2016/2017 moving the stations to WMT was considered. At the time 83.6% of services were provided by ATW.

This hare has been sent running based on a daft question in the WA from the 'renowned' MS Mark Reckless (Abolish the Senydd Party MS, ex Brexit Party MS, ex Conservative Party MS, ex UKIP MP/MS, ex Conservative MP)

As I stated at the time I was and am concerned about appropriate governance of the 'Borders' services and stations, we can't write/lobby our MS have we haven't got any. Maybe a more prominent role for the English local authorities served by the franchise should have/be created.


In principle I agree with what your are saying a split would be a nonsense.

But there is evidence of a bias towards wales and partuclarly Cardiff, South Wales Metro - overley complicated waste of money, just run the heavy rail services as provided for by CASR, lack of 158s on Cambrian since franchise change covering shortages in South Wales (and as for reducing their availability for repainting jeez). Bus-titution of Gobowen/Church Stretton due to WAG being unable to call. 197s there not as bad as others may suggest but basically less seats daily between Shrewsbury and Birmingham than now.

A lot of the problems with rolling stock stem from the fact that the UK government awarded a zero-growth franchise to ATW surely?

There was no incentive to do anything until the new franchise was awarded.

As for problems in the Borders, you can write to your MP to lobby the DfT. The Wales and Border franchise is answerable to the UK government for services in England.

Re the bustitution due to the Cardiff-Holyhead express services - some North Wales Coast stations lost out too, so it's not just the Borders. Some common sense solutions are needed to that with additional local trains.

 

[Cardiff123]

But there is evidence of a bias towards wales and partuclarly Cardiff, South Wales Metro - overley complicated waste of money, just run the heavy rail services as provided for by CASR

The 'South Wales Metro', aka the upgrade and electrification of the Core Valley lines north of Cardiff, is about a lot more than just giving the Valley lines new rolling stock. It's about kick starting an economic regeneration of the south Wales valleys by increasing service frequencies to 4tph to the head of every valley, and atractting employers away from Cardiff to set up in the lower Valleys, with an emphasis on Pontypridd, where TfW have their new HQ.
As sceptical as most people on this forum are about the tram-trains, they can then be used to enable easier extensions to the network in future.
None of that would be achieved by just bunging new DMUs onto the Valley lines, or if a Northern franchise style approach had been taken, keeping PRM'd 150s going indefinitely. And despite CASR, Queen St north junction was still a big constraint, and CASR north of Radyr was never completed.