Thames Hub

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Class172, 3 Nov 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

    Messages:
    3,029
    Joined:
    20 Mar 2011
    Location:
    Worcs
    Firstly, apologies if a thread is already covered this but I was not able to find anything when I searched.

    You may have heard of proposals for a new international airport on the Isle of Grain in Kent. It is proposed to also have high speed rail links to the rest of the UK via a new 'orbital' line around London.

    Here is a link to some plans and a report on the story.

    What is everyone's views on this proposal?
     
    Last edited: 3 Nov 2011
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. DarkestDreams

    DarkestDreams Member

    Messages:
    58
    Joined:
    30 Jun 2011
    Location:
    London
    I think it's a great idea, and thank God that someone respectable has placed the idea forward, but ut will never happen. The Government will never back it because it would be too expensive. I'd love to see this happen though.

    The one thing that does confuse me is the orbital railway. Is there a separate high speed link to London as well & where is the terminus?
     
  4. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

    Messages:
    8,375
    Joined:
    30 Jan 2011
    Location:
    Birmingham
    It appears to reach quite close to Southend and, as usual, pretends the rest of the country doesn't exist. Perhaps something in Northamptonshire would be better with HS rail to London and Birmingham instead of HS2

    Looks interesting though
     
  5. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,551
    Joined:
    19 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Kent
    Yeah, it's a great idea.....for people who don't live in the area. It's going to destroy a lot people's homes and villages, and it will destroy an important wildlife habitat. Why they keep coming up with these barmy ideas I have no idea. The last time they proposed an airport in the area it got shot down, so let's hope the same happens to this plan.

    If we need more capacity we should expanding the airports that already exist, not ruining areas by building great big new ones.
     
  6. kylemore

    kylemore Member

    Messages:
    770
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2010
    This appears to be more about providing spectacular work for Norman Foster and partners!
    It would be justified if it meant that Heathrow closed but how likely is that?
    Why not double capacity at Manchester with high speed transpennine?
    Now if Norman Foster and partners came up with a viable scheme for that I really would be impressed!
     
  7. Nym

    Nym Established Member

    Messages:
    8,033
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2007
    Location:
    Somewhere, not in London
    Or with the advent of HS2, improve 'airside' connections between Manchester, Birmingham and Heathrow, since you should be able to get from Manchester Ringway to Heathrow in under an hour it's a realistic amount of time for intergration of services between these airports to work.

    I know for a fact there is plenty of space at Manchester, extending Terminal Two would be most logical, as this is closest to the two logical places for the HS terminal at Ringway, and already has 3 stands cleared for VLA operation at T2, where T1 only has one and T3 has none.

    PS: VLA = Airbus A380, Antonov An124 and An225. etc
     
  8. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

    Messages:
    6,736
    Joined:
    6 Feb 2011
    It is surely time to stop thinking about ramming yet more aircraft activity into the skies over London, and thinking 'outside the box' as cocky P.R. people like to say.

    If we truly need more flight capacity then the answer must surely be to expand our ever-increasing array of regional airports, and re-assess the way we use our London airports. The only people who actually need to fly into London are those who want to end up in the area. How many thousands (millions?) of people have to travel miles either side of their flight to get into or out of London simply because that's where their flight leaves from? How many holiday jets leaving say Gatwick are filled with people who come from nowhere near the place?

    The South East alone has commercial airports at Southampton, Bourenmouth and even in Kent, plus smaller fields such as Shoreham and many others, which could be developed if truly needed. The situation is the same all across the country. Surely we now need a radical re-think of the way we utilise London's airspace, concentrating on those who have a genuine need to arrive into the area and moving those who don't to other flight hubs around the country.
     
  9. mister-sparky

    mister-sparky Member

    Messages:
    362
    Joined:
    28 Jan 2007
    Location:
    Kent
    "we should be expanding the airports that already exist" - for that you'd have to "destroy a lot people's homes and villages" and "destroy an important wildlife habitat"

    very contradictive response!
     
  10. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,551
    Joined:
    19 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Kent
    As important as the Hoo Penisulia? Also it's a bit of a crazy idea to build an airport in area stuffed with birds.

    And those people chose to live near an airport. Building one in a completely new area is a different kettle of fish.
     
  11. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

    Messages:
    3,029
    Joined:
    20 Mar 2011
    Location:
    Worcs
    There aren't many people living on the Isle off Grain so that shouldn't be a problem; anyway the plans suggest creating marshland near the airport.
     
  12. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,551
    Joined:
    19 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Kent
    And what about the noise pollution from planes taking off and landing every five seconds?
     
  13. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,595
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    I presume you don't mean Boris...
     
  14. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

    Messages:
    9,343
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2011
    As I understand it the idea of building in the thames estuary area is that the approch and departure paths can be routed entirely over the North Sea/Thames estuary.
     
  15. Mutant Lemming

    Mutant Lemming Established Member

    Messages:
    2,727
    Joined:
    8 Aug 2011
    Location:
    London
    At Munich after a crash, they decided an airport in the city wasn't a good idea and built one a lot further out for the greater good of the majority of the populace. Surely an airport closer to the coast would be better for the majority of people in and around London ?
     
  16. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,551
    Joined:
    19 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Kent
    The Thames Estury is lined with towns populated with thousands of people.

    it's a bit late for that considering the status and size of Heathrow.
     
  17. deltic

    deltic Established Member

    Messages:
    1,705
    Joined:
    8 Feb 2010
    Would be a sensible idea if it led to the closure of Heathrow and possibly Stansted as well. Closing Heathrow would remove noise impacts for huge numbers of people and release large amounts of land for housing.

    Would provide some 100,000 jobs in the Thames Estuary where they are needed and can be accommodated and would provide fast new rail links to the region. What the plan is missing are links serving south London and Surrey
     
  18. DarkestDreams

    DarkestDreams Member

    Messages:
    58
    Joined:
    30 Jun 2011
    Location:
    London
    No - Norman Foster.
     
  19. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

    Messages:
    9,343
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2011
    Problem is what happens to all the jobs at Heathrow now? Is there anything else significant out there to take on all those people, not to mention support all the houses that would end up being built on the site in most plans?
     
  20. pablo

    pablo Member

    Messages:
    606
    Joined:
    30 Apr 2010
    Location:
    53N 3W The blue planet
    The people that devise these schemes ought to go and look at the site. IoG? Total pie in the sky.
    We've spent the last eight years building a £1000 million LNG importation terminal right there, that currently supplies 20% of the nation's demand with more capacity to come. There is an energy gap looming. EoN has spent a similar amount on a new CHP station that is the most efficient in the Land of Uk.
    There isn't sufficient land left over for half an airport. And the Richard Montgomery would be on 3 mile final. Politicians' talk.
     
  21. kylemore

    kylemore Member

    Messages:
    770
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2010
    Tend to agree, however having a massive LNG terminal close to the wreck of the "Richard Montgomery" does'nt fill me with confidence either, glad I live 500 miles away if that one goes up!
     
  22. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

    Messages:
    3,029
    Joined:
    20 Mar 2011
    Location:
    Worcs
    Places such as Whitstable, Southend etc shouldn't be affected to severely as most flights are supposed to come directly from the east; the Isle of Grain is not at the same latitude as those places.
     
  23. Ivo

    Ivo Established Member

    Messages:
    7,311
    Joined:
    8 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Bath (or Southend)
    No. It's going to make our airport redundant instead <(

    This whole idea is and always was a bit dim. Even going back to Maplin Sands in the 70s, they have always tried something a bit too excessive. As has been suggested, instead of building a whole new airport why not improve existing ones? In particular, there is a perfectly good airport on the south coast that, with a bit - OK, more than a bit - of TLC and money, could become a regional airport the size of Southampton (as Southend intend to be). Yes, OK, it's not that far from Gatwick - but there's a pretty large urban area down there with no immediate access to a notable international airport. They could then reopen the long-closed halt station to the immediate south, et voila!

    In case anyone doesn't know, the airport is situated in a large gap in the Brighton-Worthing-Littlehampton Urban Area that only sees housing and the like around the A259 in this area, to the south. If a new runway was built right up to the edge of the current airfield from the west, and at the other end right to the edge of the South Lancing area, depending on its direction it could comfortably exceed one mile.

    (Attachment from Google Maps obviously, with some modification in MS Paint.)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: 8 Nov 2011
  24. Nym

    Nym Established Member

    Messages:
    8,033
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2007
    Location:
    Somewhere, not in London
    Ivo all very well and good but in the skys the London TCA is pretty full too, and if this is within that area, it will be restricted on available air traffic.
     
  25. pablo

    pablo Member

    Messages:
    606
    Joined:
    30 Apr 2010
    Location:
    53N 3W The blue planet
    Actually, this thread's concentration on the mad idea for an airport at Isle of Grain is masking consideration of the larger scheme of things NF proposes. Orbital Rail in both HS and conventional mode. North-about re-hash of part of GC's scheme from 1990. Resurrection of NoL services! Endless freight. The list goes on.
    Although how you can spent £50 billion and upwards at the same time that you're spending £30 billion on HS2 defies belief. We might have to get the 'other half' working again to improve the GDP, or taxes would rise exponentially.
     
    Last edited: 8 Nov 2011
  26. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,526
    Joined:
    13 May 2008
    There was a good article in the Observer at thew weekend, that made the point that the isle of grain is really on the wrong side of london for a major hub. It WOULD close down heathrow, but many many businesses are located alaong the m4 corridor precisely because of proximity to Heathrow, from corporate headquarters to the vast number of service companies required for an airport that size. it is is also, by road, much easier to get to from most of the country- as much as we'd love it, the high speed link simply wouldn't replace that road access
     
  27. Nym

    Nym Established Member

    Messages:
    8,033
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2007
    Location:
    Somewhere, not in London
    I beleive there was a proposal a long time ago to place a massive airport near the WCML but NIMBYs ruined it?

    TBH, I can't really see any better places for an airport than Heathrow or Gatwick without massive inferstructure projects to improve access, anything on the kent side of London is in the wrong place as it will prove access from the rest of the UK needed to go through or round London, and thats a major obsticle.

    Expansion of Heathrow might be unpopular, but it may well be the only viable option if you consider access requirements, improvments in access to Heathrow can be provided as part of HS2, Crossrail, M25 Widening, Airtrack etc.

    Where as if there is a link road and HS shuttle from say St Pancras to the Isle of Grain airport, everyone would need to change in London, potentially (as is the case with Heathrow now) Except heathrow is near other transport links.

    With a more logical layout of terminals being developed now, the limiting factor at LHR is runways, there is space if you sacrifice Terminal 4 and the Cargo terminal (or a large part of it) for an additional runway, with just enough clearance between them (Unlike Gatwick). It would need to be shorter and right up to the permimiter fence though.

    Realistic expansion could also be acceived by pushing across Bath Road and moving the maintenance area to somwhere else, replacing that with a terminal (for terminal 4 and the cargo terminal's loss) or pushing further south to the east of Stanwell, moving terminal or maintenance space there to free up space on the current site for a runway on the southern side where the cargo terminal currently sits.

    Any additional runway within the current site wouldn't be able to take anything larger than a 767 though, so it would improve reigonal links through Heathrow allowing the current reigonal slots to be used for larger aircraft.

    Either way, I'm more in favour of Heathrow Expansion and better intergration with other airport to share capacity than building a new one on the wrong side of London.
     
  28. pablo

    pablo Member

    Messages:
    606
    Joined:
    30 Apr 2010
    Location:
    53N 3W The blue planet
    T'was called Wing and was contemporaneous with Foulness (Maplin Sands).
    Little places like Shoreham are not viable destinations, viz Sheffield. And you'd have to redevelop the terminal; an art-deco listed building.
    The LTMA is constrained at present with what it has to handle with the four existing proper London airports. So really, the only option is much further out from London. BHX! Which is where HS2 comes in! :lol:
     
    Last edited: 8 Nov 2011
  29. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

    Messages:
    1,797
    Joined:
    17 Aug 2010
    I am sorry but this is the most ill-informed bilge I have read for an extremely long time. Perhaps not coincidental that you are 100+ miles away from Heathrow.

    Heathrow has the significant disadvantage, pretty much unique in major airports, that most flights have to fly over the city the airport serves to reach it. Eight million people, ie the population of Greater London, would be inconvenienced by your genius masterplan. There are a couple of other little draw-backs, like the fact that Heathrow expansion will result in excessive noise and pollution for most of Greater London. Believe me. any Govt that proposed this would find itself in Court, up to and including the European Court of Human Rights, for a VERY long time. Londoners will NOT accept having their lives ruined for the convenience of those from elsewhere in the country or, even worse, for transit passengers.
     
  30. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,595
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Out of interest, does any other city have as many airports as London?

    Heathrow
    Gatwick
    Luton
    Stansted
    (Southend?)
     
  31. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

    Messages:
    9,343
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2011
    and City? :P

    Well it depends on what you count as a New York Airport (MacArthur in Long Island and a couple of others)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page