Horsham to Peterborough seems to be heading back towards May 2018 level of 'service.' As I mentioned in post #146, I hope they are sending the buses through to Three Bridges rather than expecting people from Horsham and beyond to wait for an hour or more at Crawley.
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Thameslink and Southern timetable reduction from 26th July 2021
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Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Couple of the Southerns have gone back to TBD instead of ECS I see but its pretty disgraceful by GTR. They usual run 2 tph via Crawley but have one on diversion via Hove so should have had drivers to have covered a CRW to VIC service and not relied upon TLk. Of course come Monday they will be celebrating what a great job they've done at Horsham and thanking our customers for putting up with the diversions and no mention of complete lack of service for most of Saturday and a daily failure to provide the service from Crawley.
The buses should never have terminated at Crawley. Ideally they would run through from Littlehampton to Three Bridges. As it is, anyone not going somewhere served by the train to Peterborough has to change again. I get that they are probably trying to discourage people from travelling by making the journey as unappealing as possible but for those that have to travel it will be tedious at best. All that concern for key workers seems to have been forgotten very quickly.
Certain TOCs seem to have been at different stages of their trainee recruitment cycle - certainly from the J&C forum there was a huge GTR driver recruitment driver 1/2 years ago (and most recently December 2020) and that backlog still hasn't come through due to Covid. The other companies don't seem to have been at such a key stage with no big pushes from GA or SE. Somewhat pot luck as to which company was at what stage when Covid hit - and also how organised they'd be with rolling recruitment up to that point!
Also there will be other factors, such as route specific GTR (TL) depots making it very difficult to cross cover work. Several Brighton drivers might be sitting spare but would be unable to cover a Horsham job to Cambridge, for example, because they don’t sign the ECML.
Minstral25
Established Member
There is also apparently an imbalance of drivers - far more 9J (PBR-HOR) and 9R (BED-GTW) drivers are from the northern area of Thameslink so when there is disruption there are not enough drivers in the South to run a service. Hence via Redhill to Gatwick/Horsham service often disappears.
Indeed this is another problem some TOCs have had. Routes that don’t get have much cross-cover at depots are more likely to be affected. Obviously Victoria - Three Bridges will be fine but a lot fewer people will sign the Beckenham Junction bit.
Once you’ve got more trainees passed out even on the core bits, you can then cascade your more experienced drivers onto the lesser-signed “secondary” routes which GTR currently suffers with. In addition some depots are at capacity and others well below which causes imbalances in the network provision.
Depot planning and recruitment is normally quite well planned and structured but the hard stop on can training and face to face time in simulators etc. for many months has thrown everything up in the air. Lots of trainees have been able to do the paper based theory but this has just added to the practical backlog. Not to mention I think GTR has historically had issues with retaining DIs (driver instructors) anyway and it’s a somewhat perfect storm
Further GTR changes from 6 September
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia...-timetable-set-to-change-in-september-3122140
https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia...-timetable-set-to-change-in-september-3122140
Bishopstone
Established Member
Notably, the Uckfields reduce back to two-hourly between the peaks and late night, whilst Brighton-Hastings is back down to once an hour throughout the day, albeit with 8-car sets. The Brighton-Lewes corridor is therefore on 3tph M-F, but 6tph Saturday (as was M-F, pre-Covid). Weekday evening football trains at the AMEX will be cosy.
With the Brighton & Hove bus service 29 that links Uckfield and Tunbridge Wells having been halved in frequency to hourly post-Covid, and now the semi-permanent train service reductions, I feel for those who bought houses on the big new developments in Uckfield on the basis of ‘excellent transport links’. A two-hourly train service is one cancellation away from an involuntary day out.
Are there any plans to address that?
westcoaster
Established Member
Is there any Depot in particular that your thinking/talking about.
There would be no chance on TL north of qualified drivers being taken on, the only exception would be cricklewood. As all other depots have waiting lists to get back in.
Suspect it’s a case of the desirable TL outer depots getting a decent flow of internal drivers with a few years’ experience looking to relocate outwards from their “starter” metro depots? It’s a similar model to SE in that respect. They also rarely recruit qualifieds to their coastal depots (other than to the HS depots) despite relatively poor pay and Ts and Cs compared to the industry standard.
Since just before I became a driver and including doing my psychometric tests with Thameslink , I have seen a few recruitment drives for trainee's for Cricklewood , Hornsey . Also on gn side including one that didn't specify a depot and one or two for Cambridge , but not a single drive for qualified. I have seen them for southern and southeastern. They had that recent drive for 160 trainee's and again nothing for qualified. Yet since I have regularly commuted , beginning of 2018 I have seen many train's cancelled because of a shortage of train crew.
Probably because they know that since gtr took over from fcc apart from the t and c's ,TL and Southern are about as appealing to work for as getting covid.
Many people looking to get out but because of the conditions and rest day patterns etc some of the other tocs are not appealing either.
The general morale of people is very low and I cant see that changing anytime soon.
They wont get DI's as people are not willing to risk their licence when they get no support from the company.
Dont expect it to get better anytime soon.
Many people looking to get out but because of the conditions and rest day patterns etc some of the other tocs are not appealing either.
The general morale of people is very low and I cant see that changing anytime soon.
They wont get DI's as people are not willing to risk their licence when they get no support from the company.
Dont expect it to get better anytime soon.
Pleased to have a full service back on Sutton/Wimbledon loop, but thats a big new reduction on the Catford Loop. Terming the restored trains as ‘additional’ in the press release is taking the pi55 in my book....
However Southern looks worse affected than Thameslink in South London - a 90 minute service on Beckenham Junction is a bit of a joke, and along with the Victoria-London Bridge service gone, this means West Norwood, Gipsy Hill and Crystal Palace have gone from 4tph to London Bridge between the two routes to one every 90 minutes! Great for the return to the office.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
This being quoted in DT behind paywall
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/20/rush-hour-trains-face-axe-just-workers-return-office/
Theres also a risk here as trains become too crowded just when virus transmission could be increased with autumn coming and thus people are put off using the trains.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/20/rush-hour-trains-face-axe-just-workers-return-office/
Some operating and reliability benefit will be accrued from less trains in the peak but keeping with my stuck record on this they aren't clairvoyants so can't second guess anymore than anyone else exactly how traffic demand is going to play out. So in short term operators should be instructed to keep paths and resources on hand so they can reinstate if demand does reappear.
Theres also a risk here as trains become too crowded just when virus transmission could be increased with autumn coming and thus people are put off using the trains.
Given how busy the trains and stations appear to be at weekends and even evenings, I think a lot of people are no longer fearful of the virus. I guess with so many people now double vaccinated, and younger people thinking they're safe, there can't be that many people put off.
Clearly in the week, it's not that people are scared of the virus but rather that they're simply working from home or have now begun to stagger their working hours.
Makes sense to prioritise leisure services now the reduced services can lead to near crush loaded trains at certain times of the day. Now football is back on, along with other outdoor events, that makes the need for more trains all the greater.
Clearly in the week, it's not that people are scared of the virus but rather that they're simply working from home or have now begun to stagger their working hours.
Makes sense to prioritise leisure services now the reduced services can lead to near crush loaded trains at certain times of the day. Now football is back on, along with other outdoor events, that makes the need for more trains all the greater.
Precisely this - people have adapted to new ways of working now, flexing their hours over the day. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Companies haven't pushed the return to offices yet so not sure we have found the new level of demand in a post covid world. That said I concur that the high peak will be substantially reduced but I believe there will still be need for maximum formation trains out of cities say 1500 to 2000 So removing the peak additionals will allow the trains which ran at the shoulder of the peak to be strengthened as I often found my 1630ish off L.Bdge was far more packed than the one 30mins later which would be full length.
Yes, there will be a slow burn return of office workers, probably starting in September. There will be busier times of day as a result, but I think we've seen the end of everybody and their dogs cramming onto the 0815 arrival every day to sit down at their desks at precisely 0855. People will feel empowered to naturally spread and flex their travel times and days of travel more.
With a combination of Government wanting to protect business landlords/landowners, helping big businesses in towns (sandwich shops, pubs and restaurants etc), plus flexible season tickets not always saving anyone money, I do think that there will be a lot of people encouraged one way or another to go back to commuting.
SE%Traveller
Member
it is infuriating that Thameslink keep singling out the Orpington trains for the axe. it's the only line on their Network that they didn't run the off peak time table during the week for the bulk of this year (until the recent cuts). IIRC they did put out a press release saying that in running a full Saturday service they were running 95% off the weekly off peak, but if all that 5% come from the one line and the reason that line itself wasn't running the off peak timetable on a Saturday is because Thameslink still haven't implemented the 2018 timetable that really sucks for the users of that line. They it's like they treat the train a peak service when it's only that North of the River.
I can see some sense to cutting the off peak during the covid times. But to cut the service during the peak (which on the Bromley South line is the same as off peak) in order to provide over and above the off peak service elsewhere is obscene. those trains are filling up now and quite frequently v busy mid week, and now that the schools and more people return to work it's only going to get worse
just to add salt in the wound every-time they divert the Sevenoaks train to Victoria for engineering works they run the service once an hour. There's no capacity constraints on that side of Victoria or timetable constraints and every-week for the first four hours of a Sunday they run it half hourly during the weekly am Blackfriars blockade. They did this too when they're on diversion and only drop it down 1tph when the blockade would otherwise have ended.
I never thought I'd miss FCC but they ran 5tph peak hour, 2 tph through the core all day during the week and managed to run 2tph the rest of the time (even to Victoria). The cynical person in me recalls that the Orpington Service was and enhancement delivered by Thameslink so they get less of a penalty for withdrawing it, which i will think of fondly as i have the nostalgic experience of cramming onto the train at Denmark Hill which will only get worse when the schools go back
Still the peak extensions of the Sevenoaks to Welwyn still seem to be going ahead at some point. With a Welwyn MP heading up the DOT i'm slightly more optomistic that they won't quietly drop that at least.
I can see some sense to cutting the off peak during the covid times. But to cut the service during the peak (which on the Bromley South line is the same as off peak) in order to provide over and above the off peak service elsewhere is obscene. those trains are filling up now and quite frequently v busy mid week, and now that the schools and more people return to work it's only going to get worse
just to add salt in the wound every-time they divert the Sevenoaks train to Victoria for engineering works they run the service once an hour. There's no capacity constraints on that side of Victoria or timetable constraints and every-week for the first four hours of a Sunday they run it half hourly during the weekly am Blackfriars blockade. They did this too when they're on diversion and only drop it down 1tph when the blockade would otherwise have ended.
I never thought I'd miss FCC but they ran 5tph peak hour, 2 tph through the core all day during the week and managed to run 2tph the rest of the time (even to Victoria). The cynical person in me recalls that the Orpington Service was and enhancement delivered by Thameslink so they get less of a penalty for withdrawing it, which i will think of fondly as i have the nostalgic experience of cramming onto the train at Denmark Hill which will only get worse when the schools go back
Still the peak extensions of the Sevenoaks to Welwyn still seem to be going ahead at some point. With a Welwyn MP heading up the DOT i'm slightly more optomistic that they won't quietly drop that at least.
The reason for this is due to route knowledge as the Ashford drivers don’t sign to Victoria, only Orpington drivers do
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
with May 22 ECML TT revamp kicked into the long grass i suspect that won't happen anytime soon
southern442
Established Member
Am I right in thinking the Saturday service is better than the weekday service at the moment? Travelling home from central London on both Saturday and today, had the lovely Caterham/Tattenham Corners back, 8tph Thameslink to East Croydon, etc. Tried to get back home today and was greeted with an hour gap between Caterham services just after the peak!
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Yup we get the full 9R half hourly service on a Saturday but are limited to a hourly Gatwick to Redhill shuttle M-F with naff connections at Redhill. So how they can find full compliment of drivers for a Saturday but not M-F is beyond me. Anyhow from 6th Sept restoring full 9Rs again.
bramling
Veteran Member
It will be that they’ve rewritten everything in a hurry, and there’s more benefit in rewriting things for MF as it covers five days instead of one. Plus for a Saturday they will also be more likely to have engineering works which will require more fiddling. There is a lot of pressure on train planning staff at the moment, so things aren’t going to be perfect.
It's quite plausible that there would be sufficient drivers (and in particular RDW volunteers) to work an increased service on 1 day a week, rather than 6 days a week.
Plus as bramling says it's an issue of cost:benefit - a lot of these changes are happening late in the game because they are incredibly labour intensive to make.
bramling
Veteran Member
Another thing is weekend arrangements tend to be leaner in the first place, partly because there is normally some kind of agreement that weekends should be constructed around utilising as few staff as possible - which is why weekend driver duties for example all tend to be long and intense. By contrast weekday duties have the niceties in them. So if you’re rejigging something to reduce the number of duties required, MF is the place to start.
I agree it isn’t really ideal from the passenger perspective, but nothing about the current situation is ideal, it’s a case of making the best of a bad job. Speaking as a GTR user north of the river, I can’t say they’ve done too bad a job with things.
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