Thameslink class 377 future

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180zephyr

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hi all,

I have been looking at future rolling stock allocations and noticed that thameslink class 377s have been rather oversubscribed.

there are 9 class 377/2s and 23 377/5s with thameslink
- 23 go to great northern to replace 21x365s, 12x317s and 13x321s
- 25 go to southeastern

firstly, if this is true, GN will have a reduction in fleet size, as using 23 trains to replace 46 trains means that they are down by 23 sets.

also southeastern want 25, which is 16 more than the remainder!

can someone help me here please...?
 
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Domh245

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firstly, if this is true, GN will have a reduction in fleet size, as using 23 trains to replace 46 trains means that they are down by 23 sets.

A lot of GN services are being replaced by the new Thameslink services, so there is no longer a need for as much standalone GN stock

also southeastern want 25, which is 16 more than the remainder

My understanding is that most of the southeastern 377s will be picked from the southern fleet (rumoured to be 377/1s IIRC)
 

adamedwards

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hi all,
9 class 377/2s and 23 377/5s with thameslink
- 23 go to great northern to replace 21x365s, 12x317s and 13x321s
- 25 go to southeastern

I'm really hoping before these older units get replaced the cascade will remove 313s from Kings Cross duities. My morning train from Hatfield was 8 car until Dec 2015 when it became six and now we have people standing from Hatfield to London. There are other services where this is also the case. Once the 313s are only on Moorgate turns, then look at cascading other stock.

Given GWR electrification delays, theres not much point in cascading the 365s anytime soon, except for a couple for training.
 

180zephyr

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A lot of GN services are being replaced by the new Thameslink services, so there is no longer a need for as much standalone GN stock


My understanding is that most of the southeastern 377s will be picked from the southern fleet (rumoured to be 377/1s IIRC)

that makes sense, as I belive TL willhave services to peterbrough/cambridge from st pancras/the south via new canal tunnels to the ECML.

if these are the stopping services so that just leaves 365s and 377s to do the fast/semi-fast trains to peterbrough/cambridge/kings lynn
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm really hoping before these older units get replaced the cascade will remove 313s from Kings Cross duities. My morning train from Hatfield was 8 car until Dec 2015 when it became six and now we have people standing from Hatfield to London. There are other services where this is also the case. Once the 313s are only on Moorgate turns, then look at cascading other stock.

Given GWR electrification delays, theres not much point in cascading the 365s anytime soon, except for a couple for training.

the 313s will be replaced by 6-car class 700s, no matter when the 317s/321s/365s get cascaded
 

Sunset route

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that makes sense, as I belive TL willhave services to peterbrough/cambridge from st pancras/the south via new canal tunnels to the ECML.

if these are the stopping services so that just leaves 365s and 377s to do the fast/semi-fast trains to peterbrough/cambridge/kings lynn
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


the 313s will be replaced by 6-car class 700s, no matter when the 317s/321s/365s get cascaded

Just to add to that, the only Great Northern services off peak from Kings Cross will be the half hourly Cambridge/Kings Lynn non stop expresses as everything else will be through the Thameslink core, or the separate Moorgate inners.
 

class387

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the 313s will be replaced by 6-car class 700s, no matter when the 317s/321s/365s get cascaded

Yes, but trains such as the 7:47 HAT-KGX are getting quite crowded as 6 car 313s.
 
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180zephyr

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Yes, but trains such as the 7:47 HAT-KGX are getting quite crowded as 6 car 313s.

the lass 700s will have more standing room, giving more space.
also, additional 8-/12-car thameslink services will run as ECML stopping trains from CBG/PBO to destinations in the south, stopping at st pancras, giving extra capacity.
 

Domh245

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the 313s will be replaced by 6-car class 700s, no matter when the 317s/321s/365s get cascaded

Strictly speaking, they aren't 700s. They are a desiro city variant, much like the 707s. Indeed, the 707s are more similar to the main 700 fleet, and would be more likely candidates for being a 700 subclass.

I think Class377/5 revealed the actual class for them, but I can't remember what it was.
 

43074

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Strictly speaking, they aren't 700s. They are a desiro city variant, much like the 707s. Indeed, the 707s are more similar to the main 700 fleet, and would be more likely candidates for being a 700 subclass.

I think Class377/5 revealed the actual class for them, but I can't remember what it was.

IIRC they will be Class 701s, the main difference being they will have gangways throughout rather than just between cars.
 

Domh245

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IIRC they will be Class 701s, the main difference being they will have gangways throughout rather than just between cars.

They aren't gangwayed throughout, they just have a class 378 style front with evacuation door and half (albeit more like 1/3) width cab.

 

swt_passenger

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hi all,

I have been looking at future rolling stock allocations and noticed that thameslink class 377s have been rather oversubscribed.

there are 9 class 377/2s and 23 377/5s with thameslink
- 23 go to great northern to replace 21x365s, 12x317s and 13x321s
- 25 go to southeastern

firstly, if this is true ...

Others have already pointed out the 'GN' fleet will be part replaced by 700s on routes transferred to 'Thameslink'.

Southeastern is due (according to published info) for 25 x DC 377s from 'Southern', not from 'Thameslink', and so they are not dual voltage units.

(I'm disregarding recent rumours about 387s to GN though. Stick to published franchise agreements is my preference...)
 

philjo

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Yes, but trains such as the 7:47 HAT-KGX are getting quite crowded as 6 car 313s.

Yes, this train is gettting quite crowded now. (fortunately I get off it at Potters Bar)

Under WAGN it used to be 6 car 313s (or a very cosy 3 coach unit if one had a fault!) then it ran as 8 car 317s.
More recently FCC used 8 car 321s then in the last timetable we were lucky to have 8 car 365s most days.
Then in Dec 2015 it reverted back to 6 car 313s and it was noticaly busier with most seats taken after leaving Hatfield. As the train goes into Kings Cross it would be much better to have 8 cars on this service as most other services are also 6 coaches, particularly for the station calls south of Potters Bar.
 
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jopsuk

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Obviously there will be some pretty major shake ups to the current timetable once Thameslink operation starts on the GN, what with offpeak having 6tph to Cambridge (up from 4tph). Quite what the peak time extras will be is still rather a mystery.

My guesses:
The new Class 701(?) fleet won't work into Kings Cross other than during engineering work

So any extras starting at Royston, Letchworth etc will be formed from the "peak time" Class 365 fleet
 

physics34

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hi all,

I have been looking at future rolling stock allocations and noticed that thameslink class 377s have been rather oversubscribed.

there are 9 class 377/2s and 23 377/5s with thameslink
- 23 go to great northern to replace 21x365s, 12x317s and 13x321s
- 25 go to southeastern

firstly, if this is true, GN will have a reduction in fleet size, as using 23 trains to replace 46 trains means that they are down by 23 sets.

also southeastern want 25, which is 16 more than the remainder!

can someone help me here please...?

Can't remember the exact number but I think it's 19 377/5s to great northern, with the remainder and the 377/2s to return to Southern to strengthen the Milton Keynes services to 8 car all day. The377/7s will then be used on metro services to replace some 455 workings

The 377s to southeastern idea hasn't really been confirmed.. Rumours Southeastern are getting a load of 319s when avaliable.. Not sure whether this will be instead of southerns 377s or aswell as.
 
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MatthewRead

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Can't remember the exact number but I think it's 19 377/5s to great northern, with the remainder and the 377/2s to return to Southern to strengthen the Milton Keynes services to 8 car all day. The377/7s will then be used on metro services to replace some 455 workings

The 377s to southeastern idea hasn't really been confirmed.. Rumours Southeastern are getting a load of 319s when avaliable.. Not sure whether this will be instead of southerns 377s or aswell as.
It's only because Great Western don't want 319s because they are the so called cast offs.:-x
 

swt_passenger

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It's only because Great Western don't want 319s because they are the so called cast offs.:-x

Or probably more to do with the fact that Network Rail had stated a preference for GW to go for 110 mph EMUs, so that they could run on the mains.
 

physics34

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Or probably more to do with the fact that Network Rail had stated a preference for GW to go for 110 mph EMUs, so that they could run on the mains.

shame, i was looking forward to doing a 319 non-stop from Padd to Reading!
 

AM9

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Or probably more to do with the fact that Network Rail had stated a preference for GW to go for 110 mph EMUs, so that they could run on the mains.

But let's not stop somebody from trying to revive the '319 cast-off' rants. :)
 

Skimble19

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Looks like the 377s will be making their way to GN in June / July time now, with an entry into service in September, slightly later than the April date that was mentioned for the transfer to begin a while back but not surprising considering the delays to the rest of the TSGN/GWR etc cascades. Rumour has it we may be up for yet another disagreement over dispatching, with drivers mainly wanting Platform dispatch and the company (unsurprinsgly!) wanting them to use the trains on board cameras..
 

adamedwards

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Yes, this train is gettting quite crowded now. (fortunately I get off it at Potters Bar)
As the train goes into Kings Cross it would be much better to have 8 cars on this service as most other services are also 6 coaches, particularly for the station calls south of Potters Bar.

My hope is that once we get 377s, the cascade might prioritise getting rid of this sort of 6 where there could be 8 cars, allowing some 313s to become donors to keep the rest of the fleet going until retirement.

The 0732 from Hatfield will, from May timetable change, stop at Potters Bar, presumably to cram in a few people and relieve the 07:47.
 

petersi

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Looks like the 377s will be making their way to GN in June / July time now, with an entry into service in September, slightly later than the April date ..



I do wonder if June/July time scale became more likely when management started talking to mangers on the ground irrespective of the class 700 cascade. It can not be easy maintaining the fleet while Hornsey was being reorganised. Makes sense that the class 377 only get cascaded once changes at Hornsey are largely finished
 

Bald Rick

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But they could have done the slower services if GWR would extend their wires into Devon or somewhere.

GWR don't have any wires.

But even if NR did it, by the time the wires reach Devon, the 319s would be well into their 5th decade.
 

MatthewRead

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GWR don't have any wires.

But even if NR did it, by the time the wires reach Devon, the 319s would be well into their 5th decade.

I know it's such a shame there was talk of using them between Bristol and Cardiff but since passengers on Portsmouth services won't want to have to change at Bristol this plan has since been dropped.
 

swt_passenger

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But they could have done the slower services if GWR would extend their wires into Devon or somewhere.

The idea is that the franchisee organises rolling stock for the infrastructure that is officially planned, rather than what is fantasised about in forums.
 

Class377/5

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They aren't gangwayed throughout, they just have a class 378 style front with evacuation door and half (albeit more like 1/3) width cab.


I think you'll find the Class 701 are gangwayed throughout just like the 700 and 707. In fact I believe its even in the spec they've announced. Don't confused gangwayed through with end door gangways which I believe you have done.

Others have already pointed out the 'GN' fleet will be part replaced by 700s on routes transferred to 'Thameslink'.

Southeastern is due (according to published info) for 25 x DC 377s from 'Southern', not from 'Thameslink', and so they are not dual voltage units.

(I'm disregarding recent rumours about 387s to GN though. Stick to published franchise agreements is my preference...)

That's no fun.

Strictly speaking, they aren't 700s. They are a desiro city variant, much like the 707s. Indeed, the 707s are more similar to the main 700 fleet, and would be more likely candidates for being a 700 subclass.

I think Class377/5 revealed the actual class for them, but I can't remember what it was.

Roger Ford stated 701 which is what I've been calling them.
 

philjo

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My hope is that once we get 377s, the cascade might prioritise getting rid of this sort of 6 where there could be 8 cars, allowing some 313s to become donors to keep the rest of the fleet going until retirement.

The 0732 from Hatfield will, from May timetable change, stop at Potters Bar, presumably to cram in a few people and relieve the 07:47.

That train already does stop at Potters Bar at 07:38 - the PBR stop was added in the Dec 2015 timetable change. That train is 8 car 317.

Yes, hopefully there will be consistent use of 8 cars for the Kings Cross services instead of the cars used on some services at the moment which would encourage some passengers going to Finsbury Park etc to use them instead of the 6 car services running to Moorgate to create a little more room on those trains for those going to Moorgate.
 

physics34

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So hopefully we'll see a 377/5 in grey and blue in the summer sometime.
 
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