• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

Status
Not open for further replies.

W230

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2012
Messages
1,214
Of course I am the first to admit to not understanding the complexity of SDO issues but is there not a "tolerance" built into the system, say 1 foot either side of the stop board rather than an exact position? I am not surprised then if drivers are having difficulty.
It's more than 1 foot either side - I'd never get it in the right place if that's all I had!

I've been told various things by other drivers and can't remember what they said on our course but 2m sticks out. Someone said 5m the other day though I feel that's less likely. So far i've manage to get the green train logo every time i've stopped at a core station (by luck rather than judgement!!!). But it's only a matter of time until I get the orange train and then have to work out how to open the doors. :lol:
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Sunset route

Established Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,190
Will it not be switched for a 66?
Its extremely rare to see a 92 at Three Bridges

They are not even cleared for any lines (well not when I was a work last) in the Sussex area except the West London Line, so this would be interesting to see :lol:
 

leomartin125

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2015
Messages
1,030
Location
North West

cyclebytrain

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2009
Messages
311
It's more than 1 foot either side - I'd never get it in the right place if that's all I had!

I've been told various things by other drivers and can't remember what they said on our course but 2m sticks out. Someone said 5m the other day though I feel that's less likely. So far i've manage to get the green train logo every time i've stopped at a core station (by luck rather than judgement!!!). But it's only a matter of time until I get the orange train and then have to work out how to open the doors. :lol:

Please excuse my ignorance, but isn't learning what the tolerances are in terms of where you can stop part of simulator training? I would have thought that the number of meters of tolerance tolerance was less important than the visual cues for when you're just out of tolerance either way?
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,719
They are not even cleared for any lines (well not when I was a work last) in the Sussex area except the West London Line, so this would be interesting to see :lol:

werent they cleared down to at least Redhill (then Tonbridge)???...well at least they were in the 90s!
 

Islineclear3_1

Established Member
Joined
24 Apr 2014
Messages
5,869
Location
PTSO or platform depending on the weather
It's more than 1 foot either side - I'd never get it in the right place if that's all I had!

I've been told various things by other drivers and can't remember what they said on our course but 2m sticks out. Someone said 5m the other day though I feel that's less likely. So far i've manage to get the green train logo every time i've stopped at a core station (by luck rather than judgement!!!). But it's only a matter of time until I get the orange train and then have to work out how to open the doors. :lol:

Thanks, that is very interesting and I have learnt something
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Please excuse my ignorance, but isn't learning what the tolerances are in terms of where you can stop part of simulator training? I would have thought that the number of meters of tolerance tolerance was less important than the visual cues for when you're just out of tolerance either way?

I can't imagine how different the real thing is from simulator training. But I would assume (from my lack of knowledge) that either: drivers look for a visual cue outside the train (other than the stop boards) or they rely on some kind of visual indicator in the cab (e.g. green/orange light)
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,123
Location
UK
1W56 this evening, our ride back, was 23m late leaving. Screens not working and I rather suspect most people in first might not have a FC ticket!

Everyone got on the first set of doors because the platform sign just kept going up minute by minute so everyone assumed it was about to leave any second.

I waited a bit then we walked down. By coach 5 there wasn't another person anywhere close! Of course the lack of screens means nobody would know that and are probably moaning. Haha!

The PA system also seems to be on the blink. The mic is either faulty or the driver is Norman Collier.
 
Last edited:

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Will reply to questions when I get the chances (on mobile at present) but tomorrows delivery is 6X66 02+20 Dollands Moor to Three Bridge Depot via Acton with 700014 in tow.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,123
Location
UK
Train was over 30 minutes late (so I guess that's a bonus) and from BTN to STP I have to say my bum did just fine. Even my son who had complained about the firmness of the first class seating before was fine this time (in standard).

When we got to Gatwick and loads of people piled on with cases, a 700 just swallows cases up with ease. And it is worth noting that hardly anyone uses the luggage racks and just put them in the aisle! But with so much aisle width it doesn't actually matter too much.
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
9,666
When we got to Gatwick and loads of people piled on with cases, a 700 just swallows cases up with ease. And it is worth noting that hardly anyone uses the luggage racks and just put them in the aisle! But with so much aisle width it doesn't actually matter too much.

Thats not good for dwell times in the core :lol:
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,123
Location
UK
With so much space, it seemed to work fine because even if someone puts a case next to their seat, you can still get by. You couldn't do that comfortably on a 319 with 3+2 seating and I'd say you'd struggle on a 377/387 too even with 2+2 seating.

At St Pancras where a lot got off with their bags, I wasn't even to the escalator before everyone on the platform had got on, the train doors had been closed and the train was off. No door issues anywhere in the core.

I think they'll do well shifting huge numbers of people. My concerns are more down to the reliability of the core in general when there are 20+ trains per hour. Far too early to tell that, even if the 700s are bulletproof by then.

The only issue was that the screens never worked on the service and the driver had to do everything manually, and it kept cutting in and out. I wonder if it was a gain control issue, as sometimes when he spoke loud it came through perfectly. When he read out the stopping pattern or apologised for the delay, it cut out (suggesting the mic cuts out if the audio is below a certain level).

I hope that's a software issue too!
 
Last edited:

jayiscupid

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2015
Messages
136
Location
Singapore
Launching in the comparatively quiet period of the summer months could be seen as better than a full-on roll-out warts and all mid-September. Three months turbulence at the beginning of their 30+ years expected service would not be an unreasonable period of disruption from bedding in.
Regardless of whether individual passengers prefer their predecessors or not, the '700s are designed for a specific job.
When passenger numbers climb above the maximum level that is possible to serve using more conventional stock, the need for the additional capacity will be obvious. Of course those who have decided not to like the design will still nevertheless see them as a failed design.

Dutch Railways tried introducing their AnsaldoBreda Fyra units in the winter during snow and that caused significant issues on top of the teething problems. The trains themselves were very poorly made, but I expect it's wise for a manufacturer to introduce them during the summer months. At least they have a chance to iron out faults and bugs before you add in the issues of running them with snow and ice.
 

grid56126

Member
Joined
4 Sep 2011
Messages
295
Well 92023 is confirmed to be at Dollands Moor now after moving from Willesden TMD so they wouldn't move it unless is what needed. Freightmaster (MARK) has also said that it was being moved today to haul a new 700 delivery early tomorrow morning:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2661533&postcount=56

To collect it from Frethun maybe. . . .

Class 92s are not allowed under their own power anywhere on Sussex with the exception of the West London Line and that is only when accessing that route from Factory Junction (Kent) lines.

Class 92s are sometimes seen on diverted Kent services (there are q paths for this) being hauled dead, invariably by a 66 via Redhill to / from Clapham and the West London line.
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
At St Pancras where a lot got off with their bags, I wasn't even to the escalator before everyone on the platform had got on, the train doors had been closed and the train was off. No door issues anywhere in the core.

I think they'll do well shifting huge numbers of people. My concerns are more down to the reliability of the core in general when there are 20+ trains per hour. Far too early to tell that, even if the 700s are bulletproof by then.

Yesterday I alighted an 8 carriage 377 at St Pancras LL in order to get an EC train from Kings Cross. Alighting was very slow as was people boarding. From my couple of times on a 700, they do as they're designed to do and vastly superior in this regard

What worries me more than any train or infrastructure problems is the ability of the stations to actually cope with the number of passengers. Even off-peak at St Pancras LL, queues for the escalators and stairs regularly tail back on to the platform. I really can't imagine it dealing well with 24tph.
 

class387

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2015
Messages
1,525
Yesterday I alighted an 8 carriage 377 at St Pancras LL in order to get an EC train from Kings Cross. Alighting was very slow as was people boarding. From my couple of times on a 700, they do as they're designed to do and vastly superior in this regard

What worries me more than any train or infrastructure problems is the ability of the stations to actually cope with the number of passengers. Even off-peak at St Pancras LL, queues for the escalators and stairs regularly tail back on to the platform. I really can't imagine it dealing well with 24tph.

Also the doors on the 377s/387s seem to unlock even slower than the 700s I've been on.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,123
Location
UK
The doors on the 700s are very quick. They open very fast, like plug doors, and close dead quick too.
 

KiwiJoe

New Member
Joined
4 May 2016
Messages
1
Long time lurker here, just took my first couple of rides in the 700 over the past week, so I thought I'd post another review because I think previous posters missed a couple of things. Both trains I caught were delayed 16:51s from Farringdon to Brighton, although only the first was due to delays caused by the train itself - this time due to the doors not opening for 10 minutes at the platform.

My comments about the experience:
1) The seats are indeed as bad as I had feared after reading many a post in this forum. I hopped in a window seat initially, but then quickly realised that my legs could not fit without wedging them right against the back of the seat in front of me, forcing me to sit at an angle to the detriment of the passenger sitting next to me. The high window provided no arm rest either, and as the passenger beside me noticed my discomfort, we swapped seats and I was surprised to note that the aisle seat had about an inch more room to the seat in front of me (it's possible that the seats aren't perfectly aligned to the wall). I'm fairly tall though, but I was talking to a fellow commuter who is less than 6 foot who also found them rather uncomfortable. On a later train I had a fold-up seat near the toilets, which doesn't offer any leg room if you don't want to trip people over, and quickly become uncomfortable due to how low it was to the ground. Never was much of a fold-down table user, but I really miss the armrests. Still have yet to try out the single seats.

2) The lack of a carriage divide plus the easier-access doors on every carriage has the consequence that very young children and prams seem to be evenly-distributed compared to a 387 or 377 where they previously were located only in the toilet/bike compartment. Not a huge problem, but if you're a commuter, you might want to consider a decent set of headphones, as there is no escape from such noises as there had been in the past.

3) The second train I caught was after a series of large delays and during the stikes this week, so it was at a crush-loading level after Blackfriars, and even more after East Croydon. While the number of people that could fit on the train was impressive, the carriages were so wide that you had nothing to hold on to except the people around you, which on a 377/387 or even a tube line you can at least grab a overhead rail. They might want to think about adding them IMO, as the jolts while travelling or accelerating are still very noticeable.

4) On the fully-loaded train, my normally fine internet connection was extremely bad the whole way. I'm guessing this is possibly due to the overloaded towers, and the number of standing passengers having nothing better to do than to read their phones. With the increased capacities these trains offer, I hope the cell companies will keep up, but I doubt they will anytime soon.

5) The air-conditioning has been good so far, I experienced none of the freezer-like conditions after the aircon has been turn on when riding a 377/387.

6) Noise and general travelling experience was good, they are certainly quiter and quicker because of the lower weight.

Overall and tl;dr, it's a good train for perhaps crossrail or short hops, but it's a noticeable long-commuter downgrade from the 387, and even the 377 in parts (never was a fan of 3-2 seating). I can't see anyone commuting long-distance liking them, with the lack of plugs, tables and arm rests. I personally think it's a better idea to run them between Gatwick Airport and St Albans where the need for total passenger capacity is high, and the average travel times are more in line with those experienced in Greater London. You could run them to Brighton in the weekend if needed during peak times. It just seems strange that Gatwick Express has the 387-2s, while longer regular commuters have the more airport-traveller-friendly 700s.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,123
Location
UK
I have been to Brighton and Bedford on these (never all the way, mind but certainly half way) and think they're fine.

Yes, they're basic but they move a lot of people and most people are glued to their phones, Kindle or a paper anyway.

Plus, I don't think the number of people will cause too much distress to the phone networks. Besides the areas of near radio silence on the BML, my son watched steaming video on his tablet almost all the way from BTN to STP. Most of the route seems to be 4G, which has lots of capacity now and loads more to come (especially when 3G spectrum is switched off and reused for 4G, as early as 2020 on at least one network).
 

Class455

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2016
Messages
1,399
Saw 700108 pass through East Croydon today at around 16:06. I presume this was heading back to TB.
I was also on the hunt to ride on a 700 as I was on the Thameslink line today at West Hampstead but I got a Gatwick Express 387/2 on a Brighton service (387 222)
 
Last edited:

trainmania100

Established Member
Joined
8 Nov 2015
Messages
2,569
Location
Newhaven
Saw so many 700s today! 8 different units on the line, with 700003 on testing and about 4 in service, some were on east to west side depot changes,
My sightings today of 700s - 003, 102, 104, 108, 109, 110, 113, 114
 

AlexNL

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
1,689
Dutch Railways tried introducing their AnsaldoBreda Fyra units in the winter during snow and that caused significant issues on top of the teething problems. The trains themselves were very poorly made, but I expect it's wise for a manufacturer to introduce them during the summer months. At least they have a chance to iron out faults and bugs before you add in the issues of running them with snow and ice.

The first revenue earning service of the AnsaldoBreda-built V250 units ran on July 29th, 2012 (I was on it). In the months after the initial introduction there were trial runs (dubbed "surprise workings") between Amsterdam and Rotterdam, but these didn't go that well.

The real entry into service was in December 2012, when they had to work Amsterdam - Brussels services despite not being ready for it. There was simply no alternative as the classic paths over Roosendaal were no longer available and there was no other rolling stock cleared for the high speed line.

The cold January of 2013 proved what everyone knew all along: the trains were nothing but utter crap.
 

jayiscupid

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2015
Messages
136
Location
Singapore
The first revenue earning service of the AnsaldoBreda-built V250 units ran on July 29th, 2012 (I was on it). In the months after the initial introduction there were trial runs (dubbed "surprise workings") between Amsterdam and Rotterdam, but these didn't go that well.

The real entry into service was in December 2012, when they had to work Amsterdam - Brussels services despite not being ready for it. There was simply no alternative as the classic paths over Roosendaal were no longer available and there was no other rolling stock cleared for the high speed line.

The cold January of 2013 proved what everyone knew all along: the trains were nothing but utter crap.

Thanks for the info Alex. I could never work out if I liked the design of the front end or not. I guess it's what you'd call a marmite train!
 

fusionblue

Member
Joined
10 May 2012
Messages
327
Is there any reason why the 700s aren't tested on a non-critical route like Bellingham to Blackfriars? (in a similar way to 376s being tested Bromley North to Cannon Street)
 

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,200
Location
Surrey
Are they still just doing Brighton - Bedford and London Bridge? What will be the next route to receive them?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top