Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Class377/5]

Looks like the Kent numbers will be increasing significantly as of the new diagrams. I notice that most of them are currently the AM/PM peak services, presumably because most of these services are done by TL drivers throughout as opposed to the daytime services that are usually driven by SE drivers south of Blackfriars.

These are also the services that would happen to benefit most from the capacity improvements vs the 319s that have been running them up to now.

Also means a lot of Bedford peak services are all class 700. For example of weekdays from next week every service between 06.54 and 07.48 are 700's now. For the full period between 0600 and 1000 sees 2x 8.319, 3x 8.377, 2x 8.387, 8x 8.700 and 9x 12.700 departures.

 

[JonathanH]

And if by magic, the new diagrams...

8 car 700/0 diagrams 404/409 are not in use. This means we have 9x 8 cars and 11x 12 car diagrams.

The diagrams are now getting more complex with alterations on Friday's.

Some of the complexity appears to be about getting the right number of 700/0s and 700/1s at Brighton overnight with engineering work planned for next week south of Three Bridges after midnight. Presumably there will be some differences the following week?

 

[Class377/5]

Some of the complexity appears to be about getting the right number of 700/0s and 700/1s at Brighton overnight with engineering work planned for next week south of Three Bridges after midnight. Presumably there will be some differences the following week?

It does look that way. Haven't really gone into too much depth at looking at the alterations.

 

[spark001uk]

It only shows from inside the first class its declassified. For offical confirmation its best to ask the Twitter team as you can get answers fairly quickly then.

Like this you mean?

I read your reply just as I had sat down and seen the PIS!

 

[317 forever]

Nope. Siemens have built the trains with redundancy meaning everything is active for just in case. And they they have tons of redundancy.

Plenty of commissioning trains all day now. In December 8 trains were passed for passenger use.

Currently Thameslink has 26x 377s, 377207/208/210/212-215/509-508.

There are only three kinds of services, BML, Sutton or Kent. BML has been mostly 700 for some time bar the Lndon Bridge route which I believe is 20/25% 700 and the rest is all 377 (Southern units).

There is still 6x 387/1 workings on Thameslink daily.

I haven't got the time to try and type them all out for a few days. However no 700s on Sevenoaks IIRC but there more than a few on Sutton services, however its still mainly 319s.

This suggests that most St Pancras - Brighton services are already class 700!

 

[SF-02]

How many 319s are left and when will they all be gone? End of 2017?

 

[tsr]

Like this you mean?

I read your reply just as I had sat down and seen the PIS!

Excellent timing

I wish it would show this information on the screens in the rest of the coach with declassified First Class in it, which would at least allow people to move down inside that coach a bit more. I wouldn't necessarily want it detailed throughout the whole train, as there could be a bit of a scrum on longer distance routes when people all try to ram themselves in there to use a table or power socket, which could be counter-intuitive.

I've seen a number of 700s going round with heavy loadings in standard and light loadings in the declassified First Class section, with PIS working, so it looks like there is some consistency in people being unsure whether they should go in there.

 

[spark001uk]

Excellent timing

I wish it would show this information on the screens in the rest of the coach with declassified First Class in it, which would at least allow people to move down inside that coach a bit more. I wouldn't necessarily want it detailed throughout the whole train, as there could be a bit of a scrum on longer distance routes when people all try to ram themselves in there to use a table or power socket, which could be counter-intuitive.

I've seen a number of 700s going round with heavy loadings in standard and light loadings in the declassified First Class section, with PIS working, so it looks like there is some consistency in people being unsure whether they should go in there.

I did notice that the PIS on the platforms (in the core at least) were mentioning the declass, in the scrolling bit at the bottom. It just said "1st class is declassified on this service today."

 

[The Growl]

How many 319s are left and when will they all be gone? End of 2017?

Some of the 319s will be gone to Northern, and i think the rest may be going for that flex programme. The 387s, and increasing number of 700s will probably displace all 319s by the end of the year. But I don't work for GTR, so take whatever I say with a grain if salt.

 

[jon0844]

A sticker could feasibly be put on each first class to say it is declassified when at the rear of train. Or on all screens within the train.

But I think a few people would prefer TL doesn't tell the world.

 

[The Growl]

A sticker could feasibly be put on each first class to say it is declassified when at the rear of train. Or on all screens within the train.

But I think a few people would prefer TL doesn't tell the world.

If there's no permanant first class at either ends of the trains, is there even a difference between standard and first?

 

[Class377/5]

Some of the 319s will be gone to Northern, and i think the rest may be going for that flex programme. The 387s, and increasing number of 700s will probably displace all 319s by the end of the year. But I don't work for GTR, so take whatever I say with a grain if salt.

387s go first, followed by the 319s then 377. Thameslink going to all 700 has been discussed a few pages back.
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This suggests that most St Pancras - Brighton services are already class 700!

Been this for a while now with 10x 12 cars and IIRC 3x 8 cars diagrams (not always at the same time, ie some diagrams only do BML for part of the day) all working Bedford to Three Bridges/Brighton services daily now.
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How many 319s are left and when will they all be gone? End of 2017?

From Monday it's 41 units for 36 diagrams.

All 319s will be gone by summer time. Note once TL roll out is completely 700s, 700 will start working on GN services before taking over Horsham/East Grinstead/Littlehampton services later on. By late summer 2018 all the routes that will be part of the December 2018 Thameslink services will have 700s running around.

All dates however subject to change.

 

[D365]

The 387s, and increasing number of 700s will probably displace all 319s by the end of the year.

Why would Class 387s be replacing more Class 319s when they are transferring to Great Northern?

 

[317 forever]

Been this for a while now with 10x 12 cars and IIRC 3x 8 cars diagrams (not always at the same time, ie some diagrams only do BML for part of the day) all working Bedford to Three Bridges/Brighton services daily now.
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All dates however subject to change.

Excellent news, and thank you for confirming this. I could go to Brighton once I am reasonably sure of riding a Southern 313 and 387/2 allowing for strikes and overtime bans, which could take a while to sort out.

 

[Class455]

From Monday it's 41 units for 36 diagrams.

All 319s will be gone by summer time. Note once TL roll out is completely 700s, 700 will start working on GN services before taking over Horsham/East Grinstead/Littlehampton services later on. By late summer 2018 all the routes that will be part of the December 2018 Thameslink services will have 700s running around.

All dates however subject to change.

Sad to hear this. Would they be stored or will all the remaining units be used for the "FLEX" programme? It would have been great if GTR would retain some for Southern if no other operator was found. They're in need of some more stock!

 

[Abpj17]

A sticker doesn’t work. The declass part changes for each service depending on whether the train is going north or south.

I’ve yet to see proper crowding even in the standard bit of the rear coach. The 12 coach trains are very long, so it’s the middle that gets busy not the very front or the very back.

It is a little surreal to only show once you are actually in the declass section. On the PIS at station, it doesn’t tend to say the rear is declass, but it does say first class only at the front.

While I do tell some fellow passengers looking confused where declass first class is (sometimes they look noisy and I want them out of my carriage :x). It’s mostly the regular commuters (and staff) who know about the declass bit still though.

(Or some 8 car services are scheduled as standard class only still I think - particularly the late evening all stations)

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I travelled yesterday from SHP to Harlington Beds, I changed firstly at Wimbledon where I was on an old train, to STP and changed there onto one of the new 12 coach trains. I liked it, but did think the seats were a bit hard on the backside.

I also wondered why, apart from the first class sections, there were no tables, or ledges or pull down tables on the seat backs of the airline style seats, which you do get on some new trains on other TOCS. Bedford to Brighton or Gatwick etc is quite along time to be having to hold a cup in your hand. Tables etc are useful for your lap top and other devices too.

I was impressed with all the display screens in the train too.

I was surprised that these trains are one long unit of 12 or 8 carriages and that they are open style like some of the newer LUL & LOL trains. They only thing with that, is, presumably if there is a problem with a carriage, they can not really lock that out of use, or detach that part of the unit which they would do with trains formed of multiple 4 car sets?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I was surprised that these trains are one long unit of 12 or 8 carriages and that they are open style like some of the newer LUL & LOL trains. They only thing with that, is, presumably if there is a problem with a carriage, they can not really lock that out of use, or detach that part of the unit which they would do with trains formed of multiple 4 car sets?

They've got retractable barriers that can be put in place to close off a coach, there's probably a picture of them somewhere in this thread

 

[Stew998]

A sticker could feasibly be put on each first class to say it is declassified when at the rear of train. Or on all screens within the train.

But I think a few people would prefer TL doesn't tell the world.

I can't remember the exact wording of the declassification notice on the PIS in first class but it did strike me that it was more of a warning to first class ticket holders that they might have to share with the hoi polloi than information for standard class passengers!
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Sad to hear this. Would they be stored or will all the remaining units be used for the "FLEX" programme? It would have been great if GTR would retain some for Southern if no other operator was found. They're in need of some more stock!

Sad to hear the 319s have gone or sad that it will be all 700s? I'd be happy about the former if it weren't for the latter!
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I also wondered why, apart from the first class sections, there were no tables, or ledges or pull down tables on the seat backs of the airline style seats, which you do get on some new trains on other TOCS. Bedford to Brighton or Gatwick etc is quite along time to be having to hold a cup in your hand. Tables etc are useful for your lap top and other devices too.

Penny pinching bean counters presumably

 

[physics34]

I also wondered why, apart from the first class sections, there were no tables, or ledges or pull down tables on the seat backs of the airline style seats, which you do get on some new trains on other TOCS. Bedford to Brighton or Gatwick etc is quite along time to be having to hold a cup in your hand. Tables etc are useful for your lap top and other devices too.

This debate goes back a long way. Some say its to keep the weight down, others say its cost......i reckon its a bit of both...

There was talk of seatback tables maybe being installed......but not surprisingly it seems to have been forgotten about.

On routes that these are going to be working (East Grinstead, Horsham etc) you can clearly see many people with coffees in the morning and their laptops or tablets out, checking their emails before work...there is even the lady who empties her whole bag out on the table to do her make up in the morning (as mentioned before)........

...a downgrade for all of these people.

 

[Class377/5]

Sad to hear this. Would they be stored or will all the remaining units be used for the "FLEX" programme? It would have been great if GTR would retain some for Southern if no other operator was found. They're in need of some more stock!

Why would Southern want more stock? It's planned to have enough stock be be able to release stock by end of 2018.

And what is FLEX?

I was surprised that these trains are one long unit of 12 or 8 carriages and that they are open style like some of the newer LUL & LOL trains. They only thing with that, is, presumably if there is a problem with a carriage, they can not really lock that out of use, or detach that part of the unit which they would do with trains formed of multiple 4 car sets?

There's barriers between coaches at two locations meaning you can lock out some coaches.

However the way Thameslink operates means it doesn't attach much so you'd be running around with cabs on 12 cars that aren't used. Spitting units off on an operation like Thameslink means you get cancelled trains anyway due to time restrictions placed so your no better off.

Also the 700s cab have a lot of redundancies build in meaning they will fail far less than existing stock.

Penny pinching bean counters presumably

Nope. As discussed endlessly on this very forum, there was a independent study done looking at passenger loadings that showed tables etc would mean passenger take too long to enter/board for the full 2018 timetable. Personally I've seen people start get ready to leave the train at once the doors open then force the doors open at the last minute on a regular basis so this sort of behaviour is common.

So nothing to do with bean counters but actual researched human behaviour aimed at providing the most capacity it can.
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A sticker doesn’t work. The declass part changes for each service depending on whether the train is going north or south.

I’ve yet to see proper crowding even in the standard bit of the rear coach. The 12 coach trains are very long, so it’s the middle that gets busy not the very front or the very back.

It is a little surreal to only show once you are actually in the declass section. On the PIS at station, it doesn’t tend to say the rear is declass, but it does say first class only at the front.

While I do tell some fellow passengers looking confused where declass first class is (sometimes they look noisy and I want them out of my carriage :x). It’s mostly the regular commuters (and staff) who know about the declass bit still though.

(Or some 8 car services are scheduled as standard class only still I think - particularly the late evening all stations)

First class generally doesn't apply to trains that call at Kentish Town or Elephant & Castle (there are a few expections).

It's far simpler to allow the PIS to tell passengers especially as the driver can set the whole train as declassified.

 

[D365]

And what is FLEX?

The Class 319 diesel conversion.

 

[physics34]

Sad to hear this. Would they be stored or will all the remaining units be used for the "FLEX" programme? It would have been great if GTR would retain some for Southern if no other operator was found. They're in need of some more stock!

In theory i suppose the 319 FLEX could be great for the Ashford to Hastings line.....not sure if they could do a 750v DC thrid rail/Diesel flex though.

319s are not allowed down the Uckfield line due to gauging restrictions in Oxted tunnel.

 

[ScotGG]

Sad to hear this. Would they be stored or will all the remaining units be used for the "FLEX" programme? It would have been great if GTR would retain some for Southern if no other operator was found. They're in need of some more stock!

Also some for Southeastern would've been perfect, if only for a couple of years. That suggestion was looking really quite likely until dropped apparently in favour of the original plan of 377s from Southern, but they won't be fully available until mid-2018 it seems.

What's the betting that tomorrow there's 4 or 6 carriage trains on the Orpington to Victoria SE Metro line despite the tube strike? All those normally using the Victoria line at Brixton will go to the SE station.

Moving 319s to SE to use on Vic routes such as this line line would've ensured 8 cars throughout both peaks every day, which doesn't happen now, and free up 465s and 466s for other routes such as Hayes and Dartford.

Even if they went in a couple of years that's better than being in sidings doing nothing. Many SE drivers already sign them.

 

[spark001uk]

I can't remember the exact wording of the declassification notice on the PIS in first class but it did strike me that it was more of a warning to first class ticket holders that they might have to share with the hoi polloi than information for standard class passengers!

See my post #6574 (from the previous page) of a photo I took of the PIS in 1st the other day.

IMO the 1st isn't as wowing as some other stock, slight bit of side padding and bolstering to seats, a table, and a power socket.

...The declass part changes for each service depending on whether the train is going north or south... ...(Or some 8 car services are scheduled as standard class only still I think - particularly the late evening all stations)

I had a bit of a Thameslink Fest on a travelcard the other day, and all the PIS I saw on the platforms in the core said 1st class was totally declassified for every service. Or at least on all the Brightons anyway.

Funny thing is, you are still able to buy a 1st class ticket on the booking engines, and it shows as 1st and standard on RTT listings. Maybe it's just a temporary thing, perhaps somebody could clarify?

 

[Kite159]

See my post #6574 (from the previous page) of a photo I took of the PIS in 1st the other day.

IMO the 1st isn't as wowing as some other stock, slight bit of side padding and bolstering to seats, a table, and a power socket.



I had a bit of a Thameslink Fest on a travelcard the other day, and all the PIS I saw on the platforms in the core said 1st class was totally declassified for every service. Or at least on all the Brightons anyway.

Funny thing is, you are still able to buy a 1st class ticket on the booking engines, and it shows as 1st and standard on RTT listings. Maybe it's just a temporary thing, perhaps somebody could clarify?

I believe 1st class has been declassified south of the river due to the Southern issues

 

[Mordac]

Also some for Southeastern would've been perfect, if only for a couple of years. That suggestion was looking really quite likely until dropped apparently in favour of the original plan of 377s from Southern, but they won't be fully available until mid-2018 it seems.

What's the betting that tomorrow there's 4 or 6 carriage trains on the Orpington to Victoria SE Metro line despite the tube strike? All those normally using the Victoria line at Brixton will go to the SE station.

Moving 319s to SE to use on Vic routes such as this line line would've ensured 8 cars throughout both peaks every day, which doesn't happen now, and free up 465s and 466s for other routes such as Hayes and Dartford.

Even if they went in a couple of years that's better than being in sidings doing nothing. Many SE drivers already sign them.

Why would they need the FLEX programme though? Surely bog standard 319s would be fine for SE?

 

[ComUtoR]

Many SE drivers already sign them.

The number of drivers who sign them are minimal compared to the number who sign the route. There would be many rostering issues to overcome.

I've lost track of what the big plan is now. SE started 700 training this week but none of their diagrams actually work a 700 and their diagrams run until the may timetable change :/

 

[Domh245]

Currently onboard 700108 which has had a door related sit down at Mitcham Eastfields (and a passenger egress device for good measure). However it seems that there was a second person onboard in addition to the driver. Traveling fitter or just an OBS style person?

Also is there supposed to be SDO at Mitcham junction on the city bound line or was an incorrect stopping position issue. Thanks
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700018 even
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Whoever it is on the PA, they are doing a stellar job, so kudos for that. However, for a train designed for high capacity people moving, the fact that we went from 3 late at Mitcham junction to 35 late at Loughborough junction isn't exactly brilliant, although I suppose today is beyond normal, and the loss of the path at Mitcham Eastfields won't have helped.
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Mystery solved, Instructor on the radio, trainee (who's never seen anything like it) in the driver's seat

 

[ScotGG]

The number of drivers who sign them are minimal compared to the number who sign the route. There would be many rostering issues to overcome.

I've lost track of what the big plan is now. SE started 700 training this week but none of their diagrams actually work a 700 and their diagrams run until the may timetable change :/

Would a boost in capacity for 2 years be worth the cost of training up those drivers not already signed on Vic routes?

I see tonight that some peak services from Vic to Dartford are running as 4-car instead of 6 (which are already very busy and really should be 8). This is very common and waiting 2+ years to sort this out if 319s are in sidings would be a great shame. Trains through Denmark Hill serve Kings College hospital and I feel for those folk trying to get on 6 coach trains.

EDIT: So the short formed train left Vic 6 mins late. Lost more time due to crowding and now 10 down at Lewisham. This has delayed at least 3 following trains. Assuming padding doesn't help how much will that cost? 2 years of similar must add up £££ let alone worse conditions for passengers.