Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[AM9]

Class 700 is the designation for the Thameslink NXEMU rolling stock only. Any next builds from their Desiro City design (including the SWT Class 707) will bear a number in the 7xx range.

Not necessarily so. If they are ac only, they should be numbered in the 3xx range.

 

[Emblematic]

Class 700 is the designation for the Thameslink NXEMU rolling stock only. Any next builds from their Desiro City design (including the SWT Class 707) will bear a number in the 7xx range.

That's true, simply because all new EMU designs are now being allocated a number in the 7xx range (other than high-speed which will be 8xx.)
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Not necessarily so. If they are ac only, they should be numbered in the 3xx range.

No, 700-799 is for a.c. and a.c. / d.c. electric multiple unit sets (same as 300-399). See this link for details (Table 5, P18)
You're right for d.c. though - d.c. only remains in the 4xx-5xx range, so no change other than the 'southern' distinction going.

 

[AM9]

That's true, simply because all new EMU designs are now being allocated a number in the 7xx range (other than high-speed which will be 8xx.)
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No, 700-799 is for a.c. and a.c. / d.c. electric multiple unit sets (same as 300-399). See this link for details (Table 5, P18)
You're right for d.c. though - d.c. only remains in the 4xx-5xx range, so no change other than the 'southern' distinction going.

Thanks for that. So will the 707s be fully ac-ready, i.e. with pantograph?

 

[D365]

Thanks for that. So will the 707s be fully ac-ready, i.e. with pantograph?

The SWT fleet won't encounter OHLE on their suburban duties for a long time, so I'm fairly sure not.

 

[Aictos]

The SWT fleet won't encounter OHLE on their suburban duties for a long time, so I'm fairly sure not.

However if you look at ALL new build for the South East unless the requirements have changed, they HAVE to have provision for future conversion to to 25 kV AC overhead supply or dual voltage although only the 377/2s, 377/5s, 375/6s, 387/1s and 395s currently have this ability.

Even if the SWT won't see OHLE on their duties for a while, I can see it will be foolhardy not to have the provision included that they can be converted to either dual voltage or 25 Kv AC trains.

 

[D365]

Not AC-ready 'out of the box', but obviously they will be capable should a conversion to OHLE traction be necessary.

 

[Emblematic]

I don't think SWT have any facility to test pantographs, and if fitted they would need to be maintained and tested. Whether the new units are fitted with a transformer, or just the capability (like classes 444, 450) remains to be seen. ROSCOs won't want units that are restricted to one area, as they can be lumbered with hard to deploy units (as has happened with classes 442 and 460 in the past.) Last genuinely d.c. only unit was the GatEx 460, although the 458s likely lost any realistic chance of a.c. conversion when rebuilt.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think SWT have any facility to test pantographs, and if fitted they would need to be maintained and tested. Whether the new units are fitted with a transformer, or just the capability (like classes 444, 450) remains to be seen. ROSCOs won't want units that are restricted to one area, as they can be lumbered with hard to deploy units (as has happened with classes 442 and 460 in the past.) Last genuinely d.c. only unit was the GatEx 460, although the 458s likely lost any realistic chance of a.c. conversion when rebuilt.

Surely if and when ac conversion occurs, depots would be reorganised, expanded etc., staff trained, as part of that process.

I remember when the 458s were unloved and almost sent off-lease by SWT, there was talk of sending them to Glasgow to join their class 334 cousins. Of course that never happened, and being 4-car in an area at the time dominated by 3/6-car formations might have caused issues anyway. Given their ahem... difficult history it wouldn't have surprised me if any conversion had been hit with just as many "gremlins" as the current overhaul/merger seems to be!

 

[Class377/5]

Let's not forget the example of the 375/6 who to this day have pans but SE have been unable to inspect it until recently.

And as for the 707 (tad more on topic), well the ITT IIRC stated any new build should be dual voltage. Will try and find out if the 707 are coming with a pan, especially as they are made besides the 700s.

 

[RobShipway]

You will probably find like the class 450's that there is no pantograph, but there will be provision made for future conversion to AC power in the future.

 

[Aictos]

Let's not forget the example of the 375/6 who to this day have pans but SE have been unable to inspect it until recently.

And as for the 707 (tad more on topic), well the ITT IIRC stated any new build should be dual voltage. Will try and find out if the 707 are coming with a pan, especially as they are made besides the 700s.

Like I said above, I know there used to be requirements for all new built stock in the South East to be dual voltage capable however as I also said above I wasn't sure if this was still the case.

I be interested to learn if the 707s will be coming with a pan or will just be passive ready as in the space will be there for the AC equipment but not installed.

 

[swtandgw]

The SWT fleet won't encounter OHLE on their suburban duties for a long time, so I'm fairly sure not.

Until at least BSK-SOU 25kV conversion does come to fruition, though that would only concern units that do use the route, as opposed to within London and Surrey.

 

[AM9]

I don't think SWT have any facility to test pantographs, and if fitted they would need to be maintained and tested.

They could do a quick mechanical check by coasting into platform 10 at Wimbledon.

 

[Goldfish62]

Until at least BSK-SOU 25kV conversion does come to fruition, though that would only concern units that do use the route, as opposed to within London and Surrey.

Indeed, given that the 707s will have no toilets it's unlikely they'll ever do this route.

 

[RobShipway]

Okay, from the South West Trains link http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/Pa...n order for UKs busiest commuter network.aspx you have the comment below:

The new second generation Desiro City trains being provided by Siemens are similar in style to the Class 700 units being produced for the Thameslink route.

Now, it maybe me but the only styling change that I see SWT making is with the interior so I would suspect that they 707's would have a recess area for a pantograph, even though a pantograph is not being provided that would be in the same place where it would have been if it was a class 700.

Although, any mock photos of the class 707's are not showing the recess but they did not show the recess in any mock photos of the class 450's/444's before they where introduced.

 

[edwin_m]

Leasing companies tend to insist on EMUs having provision for both electrification systems, so if they go off-lease there is more chance of being able to find a new user for them. According to Modern Railways the 707s are on a very short lease until 2019, so this issue is likely to be particularly important. The extra cost is likely to be minimal particularly if it's just a question of providing a pantograph well, mounting points for the pan and transformer, and possibly some cabling that would be difficult to add later.

 

[AM9]

Leasing companies tend to insist on EMUs having provision for both electrification systems, so if they go off-lease there is more chance of being able to find a new user for them. According to Modern Railways the 707s are on a very short lease until 2019, so this issue is likely to be particularly important. The extra cost is likely to be minimal particularly if it's just a question of providing a pantograph well, mounting points for the pan and transformer, and possibly some cabling that would be difficult to add later.

I presume that the wiring would be standard looms as for the 700s currently in production. If the transformer isn't fitted when delivered, will there be a concrete one in it's place?

 

[Class377/5]

The Desiro City is designed to be a very flexible product that can be altered during its life time. I'd be surprised if they can be changed to dv if needed later on (if they aren't already).

 

[D365]

Leasing companies tend to insist on EMUs having provision for both electrification systems, so if they go off-lease there is more chance of being able to find a new user for them. According to Modern Railways the 707s are on a very short lease until 2019, so this issue is likely to be particularly important. The extra cost is likely to be minimal particularly if it's just a question of providing a pantograph well, mounting points for the pan and transformer, and possibly some cabling that would be difficult to add later.

I was going to mention about Crossrail 2 but 2019 is for the Crossrail 1 launch, never mind the future!

By the time Crossrail 2 comes together Class 455 will be due for retirement (in any case they won't be compatible if OHLE conversion takes place) so I suspect if the 707s stick around (especially if additional units are ordered) that along with the Crossrail 2 fleet this will take care of fleet renewal.
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I presume that the wiring would be standard looms as for the 700s currently in production. If the transformer isn't fitted when delivered, will there be a concrete one in it's place?

They use ballast on the DC-only Electrostars to ensure a consistent weight, that I know of.

 

[edwin_m]

I was going to mention about Crossrail 2 but 2019 is for the Crossrail 1 launch, never mind the future!

By the time Crossrail 2 comes together Class 455 will be due for retirement (in any case they won't be compatible if OHLE conversion takes place) so I suspect if the 707s stick around (especially if additional units are ordered) that along with the Crossrail 2 fleet this will take care of fleet renewal.

The 2019 date for the 707 leases is the end of the current SWT franchise, nothing to do with Crossrail.

Yes Crossrail 2 could happen at about the right time to replace the 455s, which are being re-tractioned and should go for another decade or so. Also any remaining 317/321 on the GE network.

 

[Class377/5]

Rail Engineer has some good pictures of Three Bridges (including a 12 car 377 next to the depots) In an article about the build and stabling of the 700s.

http://www.railengineer.uk/2015/05/06/thameslink-testing-and-stabling/

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm pretty sure they have retractable shoes. Look at this picture:
Class 700

Third rail isn't as high as the shoe.
FlippyFF's picture looks like the shoe is a lot lower.

Just to return to the subject of the shoes definitely having a raised position, (whether it is remotely controlled or not being a separate point as I posted earlier), but I have just seen a clear picture in something many of us might have.

The April Modern Railways included a pull out section about 'Wabtec'. That included two pages about Brecknell Willis, who make the shoe gear for the Thameslink Desiro City, and at the foot of the rh page is a clear view of the raised shoe gear, with the angle to the horizontal being obvious.

 

[4-COR 3142]

The first of the new Siemens Class 700's is due imminently into the UK, the original first delivery was to have apparently been this coming Wednesday (29th) although this has now supposedly been put back into early August.

Does anyone know a bit more about the timings, route and method of the deliveries?

I'm assuming that they will come through the Chunnel effectively as a freight working - so hauled.

I also assume that they will take a seemingly tortuous route from Dollands Moor to the new depot at Three Bridges maybe via Willesden.

Any facts to substantiate or disprove my thoughts would be really interesting.

 

[Domh245]

I don't know why they would go all the way up to Willesden before going south. A more sensible delivery route would surely be going to ashford, reversing and then going along the coast and up to three bridges. Also, have a look through the other thread, the answer is probably in there.

 

[4-COR 3142]

Other thread? Over the last few weeks I've only seen info about the 700's on the 387 thread ....so searched using the forums search engine for class 700 and couldn't find one...Sorry!

When you say along the coast do you mean via the marsh link and then reverse at Eastbourne before turning North at Lewes?

 

[Hophead]

When you say along the coast do you mean via the marsh link and then reverse at Eastbourne before turning North at Lewes?

In which case, going via Tonbridge/Redhill (reverse) might be simpler.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've merged the threads. The forum search function is usually rubbish (unless you want to search by username) so I usually use Google. If you put your search terms and then site:www.railforums.co.uk Google will only list results from the forum

 

[Domh245]

Other thread? Over the last few weeks I've only seen info about the 700's on the 387 thread ....so searched using the forums search engine for class 700 and couldn't find one...Sorry!

When you say along the coast do you mean via the marsh link and then reverse at Eastbourne before turning North at Lewes?

That was my thinking. It would be a bit quieter, but now that I think more about it, you would need 2 locos, and i'm not sure if the entire train would fit into Eastbourne. I expect the movements to be done overnight, in which case, they could go via Tonbridge as they wouldn't have to worry as much about finding a path.

 

[Yabbadabba]

I have a copy of the "Clearance Assessment of Thameslink Class 700 Delivery Routes; 1a,1b, 1c, 2, 3a, 3b, 4, 5, and 6 for Units 1 to 5", i'll have another look through for their prefered route, but i believe it's via the old boat train route until factory junction then via Balham, Crystal Palace and Redhill.

There are also routes for Cricklewood and Hornsey but not Willsden.

The 1st five trains will be delivered as Engine, brake force wagons, 4 car 700, brake force wagons, 4 car 700, brake force wagons, 4 car 700 and brake force wagons. Note the fixed formation 12 cars are being slit up for the transit move.

The remaining sets should be delivered as Engine, Translator wagon, 12 or 8 car 700 then another Translator wagon.

 

[4-COR 3142]

I have a copy of the "Clearance Assessment of Thameslink Class 700 Delivery Routes; 1a,1b, 1c, 2, 3a, 3b, 4, 5, and 6 for Units 1 to 5", i'll have another look through for their prefered route, but i believe it's via the old boat train route until factory junction then via Balham, Crystal Palace and Redhill.

There are also routes for Cricklewood and Hornsey but not Willsden.

The 1st five trains will be delivered as Engine, brake force wagons, 4 car 700, brake force wagons, 4 car 700, brake force wagons, 4 car 700 and brake force wagons. Note the fixed formation 12 cars are being slit up for the transit move.

The remaining sets should be delivered as Engine, Translator wagon, 12 or 8 car 700 then another Translator wagon.

That certainly sounds a sensible route, I bet Class 92's aren't cleared for any of it though so it will have to be a shed on the front or maybe two or three ED's?
Any idea why the difference between the first five being split and the remainder coming whole?
Without sounding ignorant what is a brake force wagon exactly?