Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[A-driver]

That's not my logic at all. If a train can do 90, 100, 110, 125, 140 but the speed limit is 75, then they can ALL do only 75.



If a train can only reach 75 but in reality at a push can hit 90, and the limit is 100, then is that speeding? You're saying it is, which is fair enough - but I am not ever suggesting that trains that can go faster than the line speed isn't speeding. Not sure how you can take that from what I've written either?!

My point was that the speed limit for a train is the lowest speed allowed by the line, traction, load, isolated safety systems, weather conditions and possibly other factors. Going above the lowest speed out of all that is speeding.

Why would a unit be designated a maximum speed at all if it is ok to ignore it? The fact that 313s mainly work on lines below 75 is coincidence or perhaps more that they were built specifically for those routes so designing them for higher speeds is pointless but they still regularly run (several times daily in fact both empty and in service) on metals up to 125mph. But they are still 75mph units so even when running fast line from Hitchin South to digswell (as some do in the early morning) they can't exceed 75 any more than a 100mph 365 can exceed 100 on that same bit of track.

I'm slightly confused as to why you would think that a trains maximum design speed is optional and ok to be breeched when you don't seem to think it acceptable for a 365 to do 125 on the fast lines?

 

[jon0844]

So, as I suggested might be the case at the outset, the 313s do have a LIMIT of 75, so they cannot go faster even on a faster line if they're mechanically able to.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Imagine the following: you have an articulated truck and a saloon car going down the motorway. The lorry has got a 62mph limiter, but the limiter is a bit pants so the driver can go at 70mph. That lorry would be speeding, because it is going above it's lowest possible limit.

I'd hope an arctic doesn't have a 62MPH limiter (it should be 56) But yes a good example.

 

[samuelmorris]

in the middle of the train, where it is likely to be busiest for the most part of the day.

Are you certain about this? Because I'll be honest, while I'm not that familiar with the outer sections of Thameslink, my experience on a lot of railway lines is that more often than not the station entrances are at either end of the train than they are in the middle and thus I tend to see more people at each end of the train than in the centre.

On the GPS front, my experience is that's never going to work as they're just not accurate enough - on a 75 stretch of line at the same max speed I'm used to for years I dig the speedo out - 73, 74, 73 and then it jumps to 81 for a moment before dropping back down to 74. The train speed clearly hasn't changed.
Enough people would see that and think 'it's only 75 here, he must be speeding!' I'd have thought that TOCs would need multiple complaints about the same driver before they took any action.

Also, on the lorry point, quite a few people (not legally of course) remove or alter the limiters. Not just the ones for speed, but also for driving hours.

 

[87015]

Indeed, this is not the exact issue.

The issue is people emailing, tweeting, phoning a TOC and going "your driver on the xxxx to abc is speeding" and of course the TOC has to investigate that, so cancelling the driver's next trains, bringing them in for an investigation, to find out that there was nothing wrong in the first place!

Thats a (poor) TOC decision/policy if that is what actually happens, which I doubt. Certainly not what is required by the rules or what others do.

When I was doing the company twitter, yes we had to note it and send on to DM team but any idea of taking drivers off then and there would have been laughed at by us, DMs, Ops Director and anyone else who got wind of it. A download would only be done if the running time showed anywhere near a likely major overspeed, otherwise it was ignored.

It was also extremely rare, most of the driver complaints are over early departures, which the person receiving can do a quick check of trust or whatever on and make a call on whether it is worth raising.

 

[AM9]

This thread seems to have drifted off-topic into a discussion about speeding in various EMU types, (none of them 700s).

 

[Class377/5]

Class377/5, I know you are very knowledgeable about these trains, and am sure you are in contact with technical people working on the project, and enjoy your posts about these trains.
Have a look at those two pictures though. One shows the shoe lower down - look at the level of the shoe in the two pictures in relation to the bottom footstep. It's quite clearly lower. My understanding was they were to be fitted with retractable shoes (which is what looks like are fitted in the pictures). Has the train been fitted with retractable shoe gear for trials on the test track, and getting fitted with different (fixed) shoegear for when it gets to the UK?

Sorry this is being questioned, but it goes against what has been heard about the trains, and what seems to be in the pictures of them. Temporary shoegear for the test track is all I can think of.

One thing is for sure - the pantograph IS retractable!

The photo does look like it but the unit in the picture is a Thameslink production model therefore is the same as the rest of the fleet.

Do Siemens not offer retractable shoes or is it that Thameslink have opted not to have them retractable?

I don't know for sure. Will see if I can find out.

I'm not actually on here to complain about the seats!

What I am on here to complain about ( :roll: ) is actually more of an issue than the seats. I am interested to see that, on a 12 car train, there is only one accessible toilet, whereas on a 377 or 387, there would be three. Also what I find interesting is that all three of the disabled access areas are smack bang in the middle of the train, where it is likely to be busiest for the most part of the day. So it is incredibly likely that, if Thameslink continues to be as busy that it has been for the past few years which it no doubt will be, that a wheelchair user will not be able to board the train because of the amount of people in that area, so they will then have to wait for the next train, which will be just as full, and then the next, and so on and so forth. I do find it very short-sighted of the designers to place all disabled accomoation in exactly the same place, in the busiest part of the train. There is the cycle storage areas, however, but if I was in a wheelchair I would find that incredibly degrading, and if I needed to go to the toilet, i would have to navigate my way through the incredibly full middle section of the train. Sure, they are putting screens in to tell people where the train is the busiest, but do they really truly think people will take any notice of them? I genuinely think they haven't thought this issue through, which is a big problem...

There had been an huge amount of thought put into it. Claiming otherwise is rather igorant

Didn't it happen at Farringdon of all places not so long ago? I vaguely remember something about it not only happening when the first 319 went through, not the 377 before it.

Yes it did. One week track was placed foul of the line. Lessons were learnt and it placed free of that line the flowing week which unfortunately was foul of the other line so the same thing happened in the opposite direction! Hadn't happened since toh.

I still think it was rather short-sighted to put only one disabled toilet for every 12 carriages, when there would be one for every four carriages before.

Short sighted? Currently you have one small area for one wheelchair per 4 car. New trains have 2 wheelchair spaces for 8 cars and 3 for 12 cars. And let's forget that we are seeing an increase in capacity length since the start of the programme from 4/8 cars to 8/12 cars so capacity for wheelchair users has increased. And not that's counting the fact a lot of the units the 700s replace didn't have any wheelchair accessible locations so it's a complete improvement.

Don't fall into the tap of comparing a limited number of trains to the norm.

I'm curious, what happens if a wheelchair has a 1st class ticket?

Every route on Thameslink current and future routes had wheelchair locations and first class as seperate locations. So the situation is the same. Seeing as onboard the difference between First Clad and standard is more in the seats is not so much of an issue.

Surely the provision of three accessible toilets per 12-car train is just a consequence of there being three units that can each run as four cars in their own right. Legally, there isn't any option not to. Just as two-car units will need one accessible toilet. Are you saying that a 6-car single-unit train replacing trains made up from 4x2-car turbostars would need three accessible toilets?
One thing about concentrating all the accessible need passengers in the same part of the train means that the toilet is less likely to be occupied by those who don't need the specialised facility.

Then its owner* will be able to take it down through the wide gangways to the accessible toilet so that it can relieve itself.

* assuming that it's owner also has a 1st class ticket or the wheelchair texts them to let them know of its need.

Rule is if you provide a toilet you must provide an accessible one. You could provide just a single accessible loo if you wanted too but add long as it's accessible is fine.

Don't forget from 2020 all trains need to be accessible. So 4 cars that attach will need to have thier accessible facilities if they currently have them.

Of course having the accessible facilities in one place on the 700s had the benefit of no worry where to be too board the train, having things like the call points well suited to people's needs etc will make for a better experience then shoved in a door way with nothing like in a (unaccessible) 319 at present.

There is the thought that you might get around the rules of providing accessible facilities by adding something like a pacer only in peak with a unit that does have a accessible facilities especially add the Pacer won't be accessible but as long as there is access on some part of the train that will be fine.

However this is well of the topic for this thread people.

 

[A-driver]

Thats a (poor) TOC decision/policy if that is what actually happens, which I doubt. Certainly not what is required by the rules or what others do.

When I was doing the company twitter, yes we had to note it and send on to DM team but any idea of taking drivers off then and there would have been laughed at by us, DMs, Ops Director and anyone else who got wind of it. A download would only be done if the running time showed anywhere near a likely major overspeed, otherwise it was ignored.

It was also extremely rare, most of the driver complaints are over early departures, which the person receiving can do a quick check of trust or whatever on and make a call on whether it is worth raising.

Certainly at my TOC all driver complaints are investigated. They only take a driver off if the allegation is serious enough. But I spoke with my DM about this last year and he said thy have to investigate them all and out of every driver complaint they have looked into only 2 had any real basis of truth to the complaint. And only one was serious enough to warrant talking to the driver at all about. The rest were false/malicious/misunderstood (such as a train running at higher speeds than normal due to being on the fast line rather than slow road).

 

[43074]

I can't quote directly as I'm on my mobile phone but this is comedy gold! They will be 'luxury', have WiFi and offer departures from Brighton to London every 2-4 minutes according to this quality piece of journalism:http://m.theargus.co.uk/news/12914596._/

 

[Class377/5]

It states

The programme aims to transform north-south travel through London. When complete, in 2018, passengers will have new spacious trains that run every two to three-minutes through central London in peak times, improved connections and better options to more destinations across an expanded Thameslink network.

New robust track and signalling systems will also allow for more reliable journeys.

Hundreds of brand new Class 700 trains will offer increased comfort and luxuries like WiFi and on-board, real-time travel information.

Hundreds of Class 700? Only 115 have been ordered.

The way it was written sounds like they confused talk of the Core with Brighton but don't actually state anything about departures from the station. One class line is about Brighton station finally getting a single operator. Er what was BR? Or the original Southern?

 

[bramling]

Certainly at my TOC all driver complaints are investigated. They only take a driver off if the allegation is serious enough. But I spoke with my DM about this last year and he said thy have to investigate them all and out of every driver complaint they have looked into only 2 had any real basis of truth to the complaint. And only one was serious enough to warrant talking to the driver at all about. The rest were false/malicious/misunderstood (such as a train running at higher speeds than normal due to being on the fast line rather than slow road).

Where I am, *every* complaint will be investigated - although quite a few complaints we get involve allegations of rudeness over the PA which are pretty well impossible to prove or disprove.

I wouldn't normally stand a driver down until an allegation has been substantiated by some evidence - normally either CCTV or train incident recorder download.

Certainly most complaints end up with the evidence disproving the customer's allegation, although I can think of a speeding allegation where the download showed the train was doing over 40 mph in a 25 mph area, and also a platform overrun where the driver was proven to have not followed the correct follow-up procedure. Very much the exception to the rule however.

 

[jon0844]

I've been on many trains where a driver has had a go at someone who held the doors open.

If there were, say, 800 people on the train then I suspect 799 of them would be happy with the announcement and 1 rather upset at 'how rude the driver was'.

 

[swt_passenger]

The way it was written sounds like they confused talk of the Core with Brighton but don't actually state anything about departures from the station.

They keep amending it, latest at 1505 today.

But this section still does read as though you'll not have to wait more than four minutes from a train from 'anywhere' despite the first sentence clearly pointing out that frequencies at Brighton will only double:

“We’re also lengthening Brighton to St Pancras services from eight to 12 carriages, doubling the number of peak direct services between Brighton and London Bridge and creating a turn-up-and-go service, tube-style.

“You’re not going to be checking when your train is. You’ll turn up and know in two or four minutes there’s a service to East Croydon, London Bridge and up towards St Pancras. It’s a high frequency service.”

The journalist has presumably completely misinterpreted what he was told, or given in a written brief. Useless...

 

[fgwrich]

It states



Hundreds of Class 700? Only 115 have been ordered.

The way it was written sounds like they confused talk of the Core with Brighton but don't actually state anything about departures from the station. One class line is about Brighton station finally getting a single operator. Er what was BR? Or the original Southern?

Er... apart from Southern & Thameslink being merged into one and both being operated by Govia... I think we've forgotten about the albeit limited FGW services then!

 

[FlippyFF]

I'm pretty sure they have retractable shoes. Look at this picture:
Class 700

Third rail isn't as high as the shoe.
FlippyFF's picture looks like the shoe is a lot lower.

There is a restriction on class 313s (because of shoe gear) - they can't go north of St Neots, not that they need to. But 700s will need to.

Just a minor correction, the picture I linked to wasn't taken by me. The text accompanying the picture on the website reads as follows :

22-04-15. As of 21 April 2015, seven Class 700 Thameslink EMUs were under test at the Siemens Test and Validation Centre at Wildenrath, Germany. Six 12-car sets Nos. 700101-700106 plus eight-car set No. 700001 were present, with the seventh of the 12-car sets No. 700107 nearing completion at the Krefeld factory. No. 700101 in base white livery is seen on the Wildenrath T1 test track where speeds of up to 100mph have been attained under both ac and dc power systems. The first 12-car set is due to be shipped by rail to the UK for further type test approval in August 2015, with the first set handed-over to the operator in December. All 115 sets should be delivered by June 2018. Production at the Krefeld factory, close to Dusseldorf, Germany will be ramped up from late summer with up to two units a week being completed. All sets will visit the Wildenrath test track before being shipped to the UK. In the UK sets will be based at the new Siemens-operated depots at Three Bridges and Hornsey. A full write up on the Class 700s and other developments with Siemens, will be posted on line over the next few days. Colin J. Marsden

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will they be allowed on the routes (DC mode only) where SWT intend to run there 707s and vice-versa?

 

[AM9]

Will they be allowed on the routes (DC mode only) where SWT intend to run there 707s and vice-versa?

Wouldn't they be the wrong length, - 707s are 5 cars so the routes will be set up for 5 or 10 car trains. They will be fully occupied on TSGN work anyway so apart from emergency diversionary routes, e.g. Victoria, there won't be the need.

 

[Class377/5]

Will they be allowed on the routes (DC mode only) where SWT intend to run there 707s and vice-versa?

Allowed to run empty no reason they couldn't but doubtful they ever will add the 700s will be very busy with Thameslink. But cutie cascade away is always possible but would be very expensive add good need to build new depots.

 

[Paynetrain]

Siemens Vectron DE 247 901 mit Thameslink in Herz…: https://youtu.be/4_wvBDVO7kc

 

[physics34]

Siemens Vectron DE 247 901 mit Thameslink in Herz…: https://youtu.be/4_wvBDVO7kc

is that an extra grey stripe/relief at the base of the bodysides i see or is that a trick of the light/dirt??!!

 

[Paynetrain]

Not sure, doors look a bit stained too! Dust from manufacturing process? Prob heading to wash it was 700101 there was a coach missing on the end can't remember if 101 is the 12 or 8 car?

 

[jopsuk]

101 to 155 are the 12 car- that's only six unless I'm miscounting? Ie half the train

 

[Class377/5]

is that an extra grey stripe/relief at the base of the bodysides i see or is that a trick of the light/dirt??!!

700101 isn't in livery yet. Just been used for extensive running so it's rather dirty.

Not sure, doors look a bit stained too! Dust from manufacturing process? Prob heading to wash it was 700101 there was a coach missing on the end can't remember if 101 is the 12 or 8 car?

Its only half (6 cars) of 700101. The 700/1 are 12 cars and the 700/0 8 cars

 

[physics34]

fair enough

 

[jon0844]

700101 isn't in livery yet. Just been used for extensive running so it's rather dirty.

Dirty enough to be confused with a white Electrostar?

 

[387star]

Will 700s be used to replace Great Northern 313s and Overground 317/315?

When will South West Trains 700s enter service?

 

[Domh245]

As far as I know, the 700s won't replace the 313s on GN services, they will be replaced by the new 6 car units. The 317s and 315s will be replaced by a type of 4 car unit yet to be confirmed as part of a new tender. The SWT 707s aren't due to start coming online until 2017.

 

[Class377/5]

Will 700s be used to replace Great Northern 313s and Overground 317/315?

When will South West Trains 700s enter service?

The 700s will replace 317/321 and some 365s on GN.

South West Trains won't get any class 700 Desito Cities. They are getting class 707 Desiro Cities.

Overground stock is yet to be announced but they won't get getting 700s even if Siemens wins.

 

[Emblematic]

The Moorgate service 313 replacements will need cab-end doors for emergency passenger egress in tunnels. Thameslink units prior to the 700s also needed this for the Farringdon-Moorgate section, but as that is now closed the 700s do not have the facility.

 

[D365]

Class 700 is the designation for the Thameslink NXEMU rolling stock only. Any next builds from their Desiro City design (including the SWT Class 707) will bear a number in the 7xx range.