Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[swt_passenger]

Alternatively, the shoes are retractable, as seen in the photo, but will not be retracted during service because it is essentially something else that can go wrong, and these trains are being designed for high reliability. Shoes would probably be retractable by a key switch on the back wall or by physically moving them and locking them so that the shoe can be changed once it has worn out, but I am interested to see what the case actually is.

As a side point, this is a significant difference between a 450/444 or a 350/1. The shoe arm that you can see below the shoe beam is the same in all three classes, but only the 350/1 has the retracting mechanism, which is out of sight within the bogie.

A 450/444 shoe can however be raised manually to the same height as on the 350/1 by holding it up and tying it there. (I saw an SWT training session at Bournemouth a few years ago, practising lifting shoes with the wooden paddle on a full size model, and the trainer told me that the proper bogies did not have the remote raise facility as it saved about £1000 per bogie.)

So it is possible to have a situation where shoes can be lifted up away from the juice rail manually - however I have no idea if this explains the photos being discussed.

I'd expect though that planned shoe changes are done in the depot, where they don't have third rail installed, but are powered by the overhead shore supply cables, so the lack of remote control on the SWT variants wouldn't be an issue.

 

[A-driver]

Really? Never knew they made it to Cambridge knew they've made it to Biggleswade and Royston frequently though.



On a side note, that 313 to Cambridge was it a All Stations and did it lose any time?

Was an all stations but still looses time as 100moh stick will be doing 80-90 between many stations, a 313 can't get above 75 and struggles on any gradients to reach 60.

313s seem quite capable of going faster than 75, having been fortune enough to get on one that was moved onto the fast line due to a broken down train - and it being fast from Potters Bar to Hatfield. I'd say we got to around 90, perhaps even more.



For all stations it would never have a chance to accelerate and probably struggles to even reach 75 on most days, but I wonder if A-driver can say what the physical top speed is in his experience?

Think that's just because on the slow line they slow to 55 at brookmans park. Fast line is 75 through. They wouldn't have reached near 90-for a start no driver would be stupid enough to risk their career and prosecution by driving 15mph above the units speed. Secondly, even on the fast line you would struggle to hit 75 in a 313 for long. You would get about 45 by potters bar neutral section, shut off and loose all that power you built up. Open up again once clear and may have 60-70 by welham green. It's downhill from there to Hatfield and you can just about get 75 on the fast lines before breaking for Hatfield. A good unit will sometimes touch 70 for a few seconds before breaking for Hatfield on an all stations.

I can't see how you would get over 75 though.

 

[Aictos]

Ahh see, I just wished I was on that 313 if just for the unusual factor of something other then a 317/321/365 to Cambridge.

 

[samuelmorris]

313s seem quite capable of going faster than 75, having been fortune enough to get on one that was moved onto the fast line due to a broken down train - and it being fast from Potters Bar to Hatfield. I'd say we got to around 90, perhaps even more.

For all stations it would never have a chance to accelerate and probably struggles to even reach 75 on most days, but I wonder if A-driver can say what the physical top speed is in his experience?

Funny you should mention that - off topic I know, but I'm almost certain I've been on a 315 well over 80 on AGA's one(?) diagram a day where a 315 runs on the fast lines non-stop Shenfield to Stratford, the driver had it up to a speed well beyond what I've ever experienced on the units before/since and then by Harold Wood, as if he remembered, slowed down by a good 10mph for the rest of the way. I wondered if I imagined it as I thought speeding was extremely rare but perhaps going over the speed of the stock but not the linespeed is less obvious and therefore more common in such circs?

On topic - re the retractable shoes, surely the units would run on test past the anticipated problem areas plenty often enough to establish if that's an issue before ending up in service?

 

[southern442]

I'm not actually on here to complain about the seats!

What I am on here to complain about ( :roll: ) is actually more of an issue than the seats. I am interested to see that, on a 12 car train, there is only one accessible toilet, whereas on a 377 or 387, there would be three. Also what I find interesting is that all three of the disabled access areas are smack bang in the middle of the train, where it is likely to be busiest for the most part of the day. So it is incredibly likely that, if Thameslink continues to be as busy that it has been for the past few years which it no doubt will be, that a wheelchair user will not be able to board the train because of the amount of people in that area, so they will then have to wait for the next train, which will be just as full, and then the next, and so on and so forth. I do find it very short-sighted of the designers to place all disabled accomoation in exactly the same place, in the busiest part of the train. There is the cycle storage areas, however, but if I was in a wheelchair I would find that incredibly degrading, and if I needed to go to the toilet, i would have to navigate my way through the incredibly full middle section of the train. Sure, they are putting screens in to tell people where the train is the busiest, but do they really truly think people will take any notice of them? I genuinely think they haven't thought this issue through, which is a big problem...

 

[Bald Rick]

On topic - re the retractable shoes, surely the units would run on test past the anticipated problem areas plenty often enough to establish if that's an issue before ending up in service?

Of course.

But, despite countless briefings of all relevant staff, a team doing some ballast re-profiling, or changing a rail, will leave something *just* in the way of the shoes. It will be a Monday morning.

It's not exclusive to this line, it happens routinely south of the river and on the MML.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the wheelchair area has to be in the middle of the train because it will use Selective Door Opening at some stations where the train is longer than the platforms. If it was at one end there would be a risk of a wheelchair passenger not realising their destination was one of those stations and being unable to get off the train.

 

[cyclebytrain]

Of course.

But, despite countless briefings of all relevant staff, a team doing some ballast re-profiling, or changing a rail, will leave something *just* in the way of the shoes. It will be a Monday morning.

It's not exclusive to this line, it happens routinely south of the river and on the MML.

Didn't it happen at Farringdon of all places not so long ago? I vaguely remember something about it not only happening when the first 319 went through, not the 377 before it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Also what I find interesting is that all three of the disabled access areas are smack bang in the middle of the train, where it is likely to be busiest for the most part of the day. So it is incredibly likely that, if Thameslink continues to be as busy that it has been for the past few years which it no doubt will be, that a wheelchair user will not be able to board the train because of the amount of people in that area, so they will then have to wait for the next train, which will be just as full, and then the next, and so on and so forth. I do find it very short-sighted of the designers to place all disabled accomoation in exactly the same place, in the busiest part of the train. There is the cycle storage areas, however, but if I was in a wheelchair I would find that incredibly degrading, and if I needed to go to the toilet, i would have to navigate my way through the incredibly full middle section of the train. Sure, they are putting screens in to tell people where the train is the busiest, but do they really truly think people will take any notice of them? I genuinely think they haven't thought this issue through, which is a big problem...

It has been thought through very carefully. To make Thameslink frequencies work, dwell times have to be max 60 seconds in the core. This means mobility impaired passengers have to be got on and off the train in that time. Not possible with ramps, and particularly not if the station staff are chasing around up and down the platforms trying to find differently located MIPs on successive trains. So the disabled accommodation is in the same place on every train, which will stop in the same place on every core platform. And this part of the platform will be raised to be level with the train. And it will also be adjacent to the lifts on the platforms at St P and London Bridge.

Furthermore, at stations outside the core, MIPs will have to be out in these two coaches, simply because the ramps will only fit the doors in those two coaches. Again this helps dwell times at stations further out.

As an aside, in my experience the middle of the train is no busier than anywhere else. Indeed in the peak the front and rear of the train is busiest as that is the best place for exits at Farringdon (front), City TL (both) and Blackfriars (both).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Didn't it happen at Farringdon of all places not so long ago? I vaguely remember something about it not only happening when the first 319 went through, not the 377 before it.

Not sure about farringdon, it certainly happened on the Brighton Main line and Midland Main line in the past year.

The most common way is to drop long welded rail for a future renewal just off the sleeper ends, and then the sun comes out, makes it expand, buckle slightly and the first shoe will get it.

 

[southern442]

I still think it was rather short-sighted to put only one disabled toilet for every 12 carriages, when there would be one for every four carriages before.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It has been thought through very carefully. To make Thameslink frequencies work, dwell times have to be max 60 seconds in the core. This means mobility impaired passengers have to be got on and off the train in that time. Not possible with ramps, and particularly not if the station staff are chasing around up and down the platforms trying to find differently located MIPs on successive trains. So the disabled accommodation is in the same place on every train, which will stop in the same place on every core platform. And this part of the platform will be raised to be level with the train. And it will also be adjacent to the lifts on the platforms at St P and London Bridge.

Furthermore, at stations outside the core, MIPs will have to be out in these two coaches, simply because the ramps will only fit the doors in those two coaches. Again this helps dwell times at stations further out.

As an aside, in my experience the middle of the train is no busier than anywhere else. Indeed in the peak the front and rear of the train is busiest as that is the best place for exits at Farringdon (front), City TL (both) and Blackfriars (both).

Well, I suppose if you are a regular commuter of the TL line, I will have to take your word for it. I just thought it was a bit strange.

 

[jon0844]

no driver would be stupid enough to risk their career and prosecution by driving 15mph above the units speed.

Is it an offence to drive a train above its maximum speed (if it can go faster) but within the limit? I know there can be limits for some stock, but if there isn't
and it's merely limited naturally by the train, is there a problem?

If I was a driver, I'd be tempted to turn up the power to 11, which is of course why I'm not - or probably wouldn't be for long!

 

[cyclebytrain]

I'm curious, what happens if a wheelchair has a 1st class ticket?

 

[Fincra5]

Is it an offence to drive a train above its maximum speed (if it can go faster) but within the limit? I know there can be limits for some stock, but if there isn't
and it's merely limited naturally by the train, is there a problem?

If I was a driver, I'd be tempted to turn up the power to 11, which is of course why I'm not - or probably wouldn't be for long!

Not sure but 377's can go faster than the 100mph which is stated as maximum. Its probably not advised in general practice.

 

[AM9]

I still think it was rather short-sighted to put only one disabled toilet for every 12 carriages, when there would be one for every four carriages before.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well, I suppose if you are a regular commuter of the TL line, I will have to take your word for it. I just thought it was a bit strange.

Surely the provision of three accessible toilets per 12-car train is just a consequence of there being three units that can each run as four cars in their own right. Legally, there isn't any option not to. Just as two-car units will need one accessible toilet. Are you saying that a 6-car single-unit train replacing trains made up from 4x2-car turbostars would need three accessible toilets?
One thing about concentrating all the accessible need passengers in the same part of the train means that the toilet is less likely to be occupied by those who don't need the specialised facility.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm curious, what happens if a wheelchair has a 1st class ticket?

Then its owner* will be able to take it down through the wide gangways to the accessible toilet so that it can relieve itself.

* assuming that it's owner also has a 1st class ticket or the wheelchair texts them to let them know of its need.

 

[cyclebytrain]

Then its owner* will be able to take it down through the wide gangways to the accessible toilet so that it can relieve itself.

* assuming that it's owner also has a 1st class ticket or the wheelchair texts them to let them know of its need.

I was thinking more about the peak in the core needing to get from the accessible doors to the 1st class area. Presumably this is something that's been considered and modelled, but I can't see what the answer is!

 

[Domh245]

Is it an offence to drive a train above its maximum speed (if it can go faster) but within the limit? I know there can be limits for some stock, but if there isn't
and it's merely limited naturally by the train, is there a problem?

If I was a driver, I'd be tempted to turn up the power to 11, which is of course why I'm not - or probably wouldn't be for long!

I don't know if it is illegal, but it's certainly ill-advisable. The train will have been designed for a certain speed, and the motor, gearing and related parts will have been rated for a certain speed. Whilst running at slightly higher than the rated speed for a very small amount of time will be relatively harmless, extended running above speed will be have a detrimental effect on the components and will lead to an early demise of those parts - quite possibly in a place and at a time when you don't want it to go, and possibly in a smoky fashion

 

[A-driver]

Is it an offence to drive a train above its maximum speed (if it can go faster) but within the limit? I know there can be limits for some stock, but if there isn't

and it's merely limited naturally by the train, is there a problem?



If I was a driver, I'd be tempted to turn up the power to 11, which is of course why I'm not - or probably wouldn't be for long!

Yes it is. 365s will easily go over 100. Very easy to do if you leave the power open. If the stock is limited to 75 or 100 and you go above tht you are speeding. If nothing else breaching design speed is a serious safety issue especially as the brakes may not function as expected in excess of the stated speed. A 313 will keep going but if you take it over 75 you face serious disciplinary action, same as if you take a 25mph set of points at 40mph.

 

[bramling]

Funny you should mention that - off topic I know, but I'm almost certain I've been on a 315 well over 80 on AGA's one(?) diagram a day where a 315 runs on the fast lines non-stop Shenfield to Stratford, the driver had it up to a speed well beyond what I've ever experienced on the units before/since and then by Harold Wood, as if he remembered, slowed down by a good 10mph for the rest of the way. I wondered if I imagined it as I thought speeding was extremely rare but perhaps going over the speed of the stock but not the linespeed is less obvious and therefore more common in such circs?

On topic - re the retractable shoes, surely the units would run on test past the anticipated problem areas plenty often enough to establish if that's an issue before ending up in service?

Speeding just doesn't happen on the railway nowadays. But it used to be more common, even as late as the 1990s. With a clear run the XX36 from King's Cross could reach Hitchin by XX16. Nowadays, even with a departure at XX35 you'll never see it there until XX17 at the earliest. This is with the same trains, the same stopping pattern, the same line speeds, and minimum dwell times everywhere.

 

[jon0844]

Yes it is. 365s will easily go over 100. Very easy to do if you leave the power open. If the stock is limited to 75 or 100 and you go above tht you are speeding. If nothing else breaching design speed is a serious safety issue especially as the brakes may not function as expected in excess of the stated speed. A 313 will keep going but if you take it over 75 you face serious disciplinary action, same as if you take a 25mph set of points at 40mph.

Fair enough about the braking maybe being an issue, or causing undue stress that the TOC/ROSCO might not appreciate, but surely a 75mph unit on a 100mph line isn't actually speeding like a 365 doing over 100 when the limit is 100.

 

[A-driver]

Fair enough about the braking maybe being an issue, or causing undue stress that the TOC/ROSCO might not appreciate, but surely a 75mph unit on a 100mph line isn't actually speeding like a 365 doing over 100 when the limit is 100.

It technically is still speeding. Speed limits on the railway include train speed and track speed. Breaking the limit involves passing the lower of those two. By your logic you could argue doing 90mph in a 365 on a 75mph stretch of slow line is not speeding as the only reason line speed is 75 is signal spacing. The enhanced braking on a 365 mean that that is not an issue. Except that it's still speeding. If a freight train is limited to 40 on a 100 track and does 50 then it's still speeding. During snow you reduce your speed by 10mph above 50. If you are in a 365 on a 125 section you do 90. If you are in a 313 on a 125 section you do 65. The actual speed limit for a train is not what is written in big black letters on a white sign with a big red circle round it but is the speed that the train you are driving is permitted to do up as far as the line speed. So a 75mph unit can never go above 75mph, regardless of line speed.

 

[talldave]

As a passenger, you can check the train's speed using a smartphone app such as DigiHUD, which I use for continental driving but find works fine on trains too.

 

[A-driver]

As a passenger, you can check the train's speed using a smartphone app such as DigiHUD, which I use for continental driving but find works fine on trains too.

Oh yea-please everyone do this. What we have always needed in the industry is a load of completely clueless wannabe driver managers on our train checking up on us...

What is recommend is that you then take your findings to Twitter when you 'think' your driver may be speeding. That way the TOC has to spend time taking the driver off track and investigating only to find (as happens every time some idiot reports a driver for speeding) that in fact the driver was not speeding at all but the punter who thought the knew what the line speed was actually didn't!

Like the idiot who tweeted that their driver was speeding between finsbury and potters. This punter was obviously used to 75mph slow line runs so decided the driver must have been speeding when he reached 100mph on the fast...

 

[talldave]

Sorry, I was hoping for the reverse outcome!!

That all the amateur speed-guessers would find that their estimates are wildly out and nobody's breaking any speed limits!!

And hence we'd have less pointless discussions like this one!

And I don't do Twitter, or Facebook, or Insta whatever it is. I have a life, well mostly, except for those parts of it I spend having inane conversations with the idiots at Southern's Customer Services Dept..

 

[A-driver]

Sorry, I was hoping for the reverse outcome!!



That all the amateur speed-guessers would find that their estimates are wildly out and nobody's breaking any speed limits!!



And hence we'd have less pointless discussions like this one!



And I don't do Twitter, or Facebook, or Insta whatever it is. I have a life!!!!

To be clear, I wasn't having a go directly at you, just at those who do sit there with a Gps app on the go trying to catch drivers out.

 

[hulabaloo]

To be honest, you can all drive as fast as you bl**dy like - live a little folks

 

[broadgage]

Oh yea-please everyone do this. What we have always needed in the industry is a load of completely clueless wannabe driver managers on our train checking up on us...

What is recommend is that you then take your findings to Twitter when you 'think' your driver may be speeding. That way the TOC has to spend time taking the driver off track and investigating only to find (as happens every time some idiot reports a driver for speeding) that in fact the driver was not speeding at all but the punter who thought the knew what the line speed was actually didn't!

Like the idiot who tweeted that their driver was speeding between finsbury and potters. This punter was obviously used to 75mph slow line runs so decided the driver must have been speeding when he reached 100mph on the fast...

I frequently observe the speed of trains by means of a hand held GPS unit. This is simply for my own interest, I certainly do not put the results on social media or the internet.
Whilst it could be argued that I should report suspected speeding, I never have because in most, perhaps all cases, the speed is in fact correct and I am mistaken as to what the permitted speed is.
Very few drivers indeed exceed the proper speed and I take the view that those who do will soon be caught without me interfering.
When was the last UK railway accident caused by speeding ? such events are exceedingly rare.

 

[causton]

Very few drivers indeed exceed the proper speed and I take the view that those who do will soon be caught without me interfering.
When was the last UK railway accident caused by speeding ? such events are exceedingly rare.

Indeed, this is not the exact issue.

The issue is people emailing, tweeting, phoning a TOC and going "your driver on the xxxx to abc is speeding" and of course the TOC has to investigate that, so cancelling the driver's next trains, bringing them in for an investigation, to find out that there was nothing wrong in the first place!

 

[jon0844]

By your logic you could argue doing 90mph in a 365 on a 75mph stretch of slow line is not speeding as the only reason line speed is 75 is signal spacing.

That's not my logic at all. If a train can do 90, 100, 110, 125, 140 but the speed limit is 75, then they can ALL do only 75.

If a train can only reach 75 but in reality at a push can hit 90, and the limit is 100, then is that speeding? You're saying it is, which is fair enough - but I am not ever suggesting that trains that can go faster than the line speed isn't speeding. Not sure how you can take that from what I've written either?!

 

[cjmillsnun]

As a passenger, you can check the train's speed using a smartphone app such as DigiHUD, which I use for continental driving but find works fine on trains too.

The accuracy is poor at best.

 

[Domh245]

If a train can only reach 75 but in reality at a push can hit 90, and the limit is 100, then is that speeding? You're saying it is, which is fair enough - but I am not ever suggesting that trains that can go faster than the line speed isn't speeding. Not sure how you can take that from what I've written either?!

Imagine the following: you have an articulated truck and a saloon car going down the motorway. The lorry has got a 62mph limiter, but the limiter is a bit pants so the driver can go at 70mph. That lorry would be speeding, because it is going above it's lowest possible limit.