Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Fincra5]

I get that there needs to be space for the CORE section but theres a hell of a lot of route outside of that! The CORE will have 24trains ph... in peak, I cant see how so much standing room is needed.
The seats should be like 377/1 (2+2), they are comfortable and spacious. There should at least be some tables in standard and and least drop down tables from the airline seats, its preposterous that there isn't!
Ive been on 450s and 360s and for long journeys they are awful! Ends up being my drink that takes over a seat as I need somewhere to put it

 

[jon0844]

Besides the doorways and in the accessible section of the train, it's going to be normal 2+2 seating - with the added advantage of wide gangways making it easy to walk along to find a seat (many people don't even try to use internal doors to walk along the train to look for seats - hence all crowding in the first few carriages).

On S-Stock when I've been to Hammersmith and boarded, a lot of people do walk through the train and not simply sit down in the first carriage. People seem to board because they fear the train might go early, so if they can walk through then it should help spread the load. Proof of that is when boarding a Jubilee line train at Stratford, where loads of people just join the first carriage or two and clearly don't use the (unsafe) internal doors. Perhaps some people assume that a Thameslink train is like this too, especially the older stock?

As said before, the mock up of the train was a bit of a hybrid and wasn't able to show everything as it will be. Look at the carriage layout plans and it all seems a lot more positive.

 

[Minstral25]

Besides the doorways and in the accessible section of the train, it's going to be normal 2+2 seating - with the added advantage of wide gangways making it easy to walk along to find a seat (many people don't even try to use internal doors to walk along the train to look for seats - hence all crowding in the first few carriages)

QUOTE]

I disagree, they are not normal 2+2 but a narrow 2+2 with no tray tables or armrests.

If they were normal 2+2 as in 377's I'd be very happy

 

[jon0844]

I've emailed some feedback and mentioned the lack of seat back tables, but I am not bothered about armrests and felt the seats were sufficiently wide enough.

Of course, that's my opinion - but I'm not exactly skinny!

 

[CC 72100]

The seating is poor?

RER seats:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Rame_MI09_du_RER_A_-_IMG_1572.jpg

I've spent a good half an hour in those seats, not bad at all given the circumstances.

I mean you've got the 'plank of wood with a fabric covering' flip up seats on the MS61 stock..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed here's another (single deck) Transilien refurb with the same seating.
this more modern stock looks rather comfier

this doesn't

The first one - fairly common reburb as carried out to the single and double deck sets between 2003 and 2010, and certain trains (not all of them) on the RER D. They're not too bad. Not the most comfortable but tidied up the trains which going through some of Ile-de-France's crumbiest areas meant that they get a lot of abuse. Journey time vary - but if it's Paris - Mantes la Jolie or Rambouillet, you could be looking at an hour spent on there.

The second one - the B82500, although on the Transilien line P, isn't really suburban stock at all. Basically, the line P contains two unelectrified branches. The only bits that aren't electrified on the whole Transilien / RER network. In order to supplement and all but replace a few of the last remaining stock + BB67400 combos, this stock - which to be honest, is more rural than suburban - has been used. The truth is it isn't very adapted at all, and the more luxurious fixtures have just given the vandals more stuff to wreck. The spotlights, for example, which are finally being replaced by strip lighting. Stuff like Paris Est - Provins is a good 90 minute/ 60 mile run though.

They are far from the ideal choice for the line, and are essentially TER stock which even SNCF has admitted itself is just the best possible fit given the circumstances.

The last one is from the new pink units - Z50000. Not been on one myself, but looking at pictures of the Desiro city, I can see similarities. These units have been ordered in a significant quantity (200+) but as for how long the services they operate are, i'm not sure.

 

[4-6-2 Coast]

I was not impressed with the leg room:

But then I'm 6'5"

 

[Electrostar]

Do we know if the Thameslink core will receive coloured parallel lines on the tube map like Crossrail, DLR and Overground? If it really is to become a north-south version of Crossrail in Londoners' eyes then it should do. As has been mentioned above the core will have tube-like frequencies. Certainly at present I always check FCC connections but I guess that's what the powers that be hope to change.

 

[Class377/5]

Do we know if the Thameslink core will receive coloured parallel lines on the tube map like Crossrail, DLR and Overground? If it really is to become a north-south version of Crossrail in Londoners' eyes then it should do. As has been mentioned above the core will have tube-like frequencies. Certainly at present I always check FCC connections but I guess that's what the powers that be hope to change.

Its expected to gain its status on the Tube map at some point especially if Oyster starts to become valid to Gatwick.

 

[Fincra5]

I dislike the idea of Oyster to Gatwick... Means I have to carry an oyster reader for ticket checks after ECR. SIGH

 

[The Box Photter]

Having looked at the mock-up yesterday. My initial thoughts were that the seats in standard were comfortable enough. I didn't have the pleasure of sharing a double seat with another potential user though.

Looking back, they are a bit on the narrow side. I've been commuting from one stop south of Bedford for 10 years and can't wait to see the back of the 319s. They are falling to pieces.

As for how busy will the trains be, well currently all the morning peak fasts and semi fasts are full and standing (often crush-loaded) from St Albans into St Pancras (even the 12-car trains) and all the available seats are usually taken by Luton or Harpenden. All those stations are a long way from being suburban North London. The trains then begin to thin out from St Pancras, with lots of passengers alighting at Farringdon, City Thameslink and Blackfriars. The trains are usually no more than a quarter full leaving Blackfriars going south. The reverse happens in the evenings.

I do feel that too much emphasis has been put on "24 trains per hour through the core" as being a wonderful improvement, especially as those trains will be arriving from places as far afield as Bedford, Peterborough, Cambridge and King's Lynn. Not all the trains through the core will be coming from Bedford or going to Bedford. 24tph through the core is only relevant if your journey starts at St Pancras and ends at London Bridge or vice versa. Not many commuters will be using that facility for the entirety of their journey. I also really don't understand why GN trains need to be shoehorned through St Pancras LL and then on to sundry destinations in third-rail land.

I hope GN commuters are ready to experience their train turning up at St Pancras LL already half-full or delayed because of "leaves on the line just outside Littlehampton". That's what Bedford line passengers currently have to endure and its not much fun.

I don't envisage any improvement in peak time capacity for Bedford line passengers. In fact I feel as though we've had "our railway" (the old Bed-Pan) stolen from us and turned into a glorified tube line for passengers who want to avoid the Northern and Victoria Lines to cross London.

 

[asylumxl]

I hope GN commuters are ready to experience their train turning up at St Pancras LL already half-full or delayed because of "leaves on the line just outside Littlehampton". That's what Bedford line passengers currently have to endure and its not much fun.

I think it's fair to say that the reason they are being shoehorned in to TL is to increase frequency to places in the SE such as Brighton. Apparently their current high level of service is not enough.

 

[Loki]

Do we know if the Thameslink core will receive coloured parallel lines on the tube map like Crossrail, DLR and Overground? If it really is to become a north-south version of Crossrail in Londoners' eyes then it should do. As has been mentioned above the core will have tube-like frequencies. Certainly at present I always check FCC connections but I guess that's what the powers that be hope to change.

Sure hope so. In my opinion both the Crossrail lines and Thameslink should also receive letters or numbers similar to the German S-bahn or French RER when added to the maps.
Perhaps C 1, C 2, C 3...? It's much easier for people unfamiliar with the network.

 

[Electrostar]

Is the door to first class a manually operated swing door? I know the rest of the train won't need automatic doors because of the wide inter-carriage gangways but it feels like a bit of a step backward.

Pleased to hear it will be on the tube map. I think it needs to be in a colour. The black and white line of yesteryear is psychologically too off-putting.

 

[transmanche]

Sure hope so. In my opinion both the Crossrail lines and Thameslink should also receive letters or numbers similar to the German S-bahn or French RER when added to the maps.
Perhaps C 1, C 2, C 3...? It's much easier for people unfamiliar with the network.

Good idea. I assume C=Crossrail and T=Thameslink? I also think LO needs to have line numbers (perhaps just plain numbers without prefix?) And the DLR too D1, D2, etc.

 

[Aictos]

Is the door to first class a manually operated swing door? I know the rest of the train won't need automatic doors because of the wide inter-carriage gangways but it feels like a bit of a step backward.

Yes it is a manually operated door and it has a gap between the door and the door frame for two reasons, one for the air conditioning to work properly (yes really) and two so people don't trap their fingers in the doors.

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't really see the complaints about the timetable - if the draft timetable is anything like what comes out in reality, we should be looking at 4tph to Bedford, 2tph to Luton and 4tph to St Albans off-peak, with 2tph to Peterborough, 2tph to Cambridge and 4tph to Welwyn on the GN side. Peak would add another 4ph to Bedford and 2tph to Luton, but nothing on the GN side (presumably because that would come from Kings Cross).
This doesn't seem terribly intrusive to me, as it seems like the extra services that go 'the other way' north of St Pancras are just using up slots in the central section that are no longer used by virtue of the fact that the Sutton services no longer run through it. If I remember rightly they will use the terminus platforms at Blackfriars now, but still use the Class 700 rolling stock? Is that right, or has that changed since I last read?

Apart from the risks regarding GN delays blocking up the TL core, I don't think there are any negative implications to the timetable here other than passengers who previously used the Sutton lines from places further north than Blackfriars now having to change trains.

 

[asylumxl]

I don't really see the complaints about the timetable - if the draft timetable is anything like what comes out in reality, we should be looking at 4tph to Bedford, 2tph to Luton and 4tph to St Albans off-peak

So only 2 trains more than the current off-peak service?

 

[jon0844]

Apart from the risks regarding GN delays blocking up the TL core, I don't think there are any negative implications to the timetable here other than passengers who previously used the Sutton lines from places further north than Blackfriars now having to change trains.

I wonder how often it will be GN delays affecting the core, as against the other way around, with delays in the core affecting the GN side (and the ECML in general).

Unless the WGC services are going to be made to ONLY use the slow lines, so as not to affect the Intercity services, thus having to fit in around the all-station stoppers from Moorgate?

If so, that's going to be interesting as I'd have hoped the WGC services would be skipping some stops and so it's going to be quite tightly packed - and there's much more scope for the GN side to be messed up because a train missed its path (coming back, with services all starting from WGC, it is less likely for them to be delayed significantly).

 

[samuelmorris]

It's still more. Given that the same central section is now serving the GN as well, how much were you expecting?

The one thing I'm interested to know is if, despite all this, they can tighten up the timing of the central section, with signalling changes and faster trains. I'm assuming the remodel of London Bridge is what will help most there as that bit's painful at the best of times. Looking at the journey times, 15 minutes from London Bridge to St Pancras on Thameslink with 3 intermediate stops versus 10 minutes on the Northern line with 4 is a little laughable.

 

[jon0844]

Yes it is a manually operated door and it has a gap between the door and the door frame for two reasons, one for the air conditioning to work properly (yes really) and two so people don't trap their fingers in the doors.

Cue people on Twitter in the future saying how badly designed the trains are because the doors don't fit properly!

 

[Class377/5]

As for the CIS, what was on display isn't the final system. Its in development. What was shown was what the system can do.

So only 2 trains more than the current off-peak service?

Yes, however the trains will be a mix of 8 and 12 compared to today's 4/8 and rare 2 12 car a day.

It's still more. Given that the same central section is now serving the GN as well, how much were you expecting?

The one thing I'm interested to know is if, despite all this, they can tighten up the timing of the central section, with signalling changes and faster trains. I'm assuming the remodel of London Bridge is what will help most there as that bit's painful at the best of times. Looking at the journey times, 15 minutes from London Bridge to St Pancras on Thameslink with 3 intermediate stops versus 10 minutes on the Northern line with 4 is a little laughable.

There will be speeding up of times from Kentish Town to Elephant & Castle/London Bridge. Can't remember how much the target was but sure Kentish Town to St Pancras gets a saving of something like 1.5mins.

 

[MCR247]

IMO, the interior layout looks perfect for Crossrail, but not really for TL. I do think that the DfT needs to realise that the two lines are completely different and have completely different needs

 

[Electrostar]

The other thing about the manual door is the chance of it not locking properly and swinging open. I guess an automated door is more expensive and requires more maintenance, it just feels like a step backwards. If there's wheelchair space in standard class am I to assume the there's no requiremt for the swing-door to have a button for assisted operation?

 

[jopsuk]

GN trains through the core will be a boon to those working in the London Bridge area, relieving the Northern Line.

 

[starrymarkb]

Good idea. I assume C=Crossrail and T=Thameslink? I also think LO needs to have line numbers (perhaps just plain numbers without prefix?) And the DLR too D1, D2, etc.

I think all of the Suburban routes should be numbered that way. "Take the M2 or M3* Train from Waterloo to Stoneleigh" is far clearer then "To get to Stoneleigh look for a train going towards Dorking or Guildford" [which isn't great if you get on a Guildford via Woking or Cobham service)

*I chose M for metro - numbers random

 

[swt_passenger]

This doesn't seem terribly intrusive to me, as it seems like the extra services that go 'the other way' north of St Pancras are just using up slots in the central section that are no longer used by virtue of the fact that the Sutton services no longer run through it. If I remember rightly they will use the terminus platforms at Blackfriars now, but still use the Class 700 rolling stock? Is that right, or has that changed since I last read?

Yes you've definitely skipped a few pages of the overall saga there I'm afraid.

You must have missed the DfT's fairly well discussed U-turn - announced during the TSGN consultation - that left the Wimbledon/Sutton loop as a through service. Happened last January:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-safeguards-future-of-the-wimbledon-loop

...and the broad effect is that there are significantly less (i.e. 4 tph less) services off the Southeastern compared to early proposals.

 

[transmanche]

I think all of the Suburban routes should be numbered that way. "Take the M2 or M3* Train from Waterloo to Stoneleigh" is far clearer then "To get to Stoneleigh look for a train going towards Dorking or Guildford" [which isn't great if you get on a Guildford via Woking or Cobham service)

*I chose M for metro - numbers random

Of course, until relatively recently nearly all suburban routes did have route numbers - and the 455s still display them on the front. (I can still remember it was routes 51/52/53 from Waterloo to Alton, with 51 being the fastest and 53 being the slowest.)

Its a shame that the route numbers were removed from new trains and just faded away - when they should have been included in announcements and station PIS.

 

[jon0844]

Would certainly help for Thameslink when so many trains through the core will be going to all sorts of different places, and then you have those that skip some stations and those that don't. Knowing what train you need by code will be easier than looking first at the destination and then trying to see if that stops where you want to go.

I don't envy things when some trains have faulty screens!

 

[asylumxl]

Would certainly help for Thameslink when so many trains through the core will be going to all sorts of different places, and then you have those that skip some stations and those that don't. Knowing what train you need by code will be easier than looking first at the destination and then trying to see if that stops where you want to go.

I don't envy things when some trains have faulty screens!

But then it gets more complicated as the stopping patterns aren't always consistent. For example some peak Sutton/Sevenoak services will run fast between St Albans and St Pancras, while others will stop at Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway and West Hampstead Thameslink. The usual off-peak Sutton services stop at all stations while the Sevenoaks services only go as far north as Kentish Town. That's just one example obviously. There are then the various inconsistencies in the Brighton/Bedford services and various services to Kent.

 

[DJL]

But then it gets more complicated as the stopping patterns aren't always consistent. For example some peak Sutton/Sevenoak services will run fast between St Albans and St Pancras, while others will stop at Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway and West Hampstead Thameslink. The usual off-peak Sutton services stop at all stations while the Sevenoaks services only go as far north as Kentish Town. That's just one example obviously. There are then the various inconsistencies in the Brighton/Bedford services and various services to Kent.

The in-bound services from Sevenoaks also have some odd stopping patterns in the mornings.
It seems to be somewhat random as to which stops each train will serve. Since it doesn't affect me I've not bothered to figure out if there is a pattern. I'm sure there is some logic to it.

Also at least one out-bound to Sevenoaks train in the evening skips SMY and one skips Bickley while the slightly later "fast" train stops! (either Rochester or Ashford bound, I'm not sure which)

With all this in mind simple route numbers are unfortunately not quite that simple.

The timings of the sevenoaks and other kent services do seem to be somewhat haphazard currently. (Mind you I think the same is true of most/all Southeastern services)

Maybe by 2018 this will all change though. If the newer trains enable shorter dwell times the desire to randomly skip stops may be reduced and the new franchise owner might be keen on a predictable clockface public timetable (whether it can be achieved is another matter of course).