Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Dr Iver]

It managed to stop the job at Farringdon because it couldn't get the pans up!

 

[Trainfan344]

IIRC there is a maximum number of 8 cabs permitted in trains, does that mean we could see a 48 car train on the network?

 

[bluegoblin7]

I'm not entirely up on all the railway lingo so I'll let someone else explain exactly what happened, but here's the 24-car train running north through St. Pancras low level and south through Blackfriars. Both trips were somewhat later than booked.

700108 - St. Pancras International (Low Level) by Jack Gordon, on Flickr

700107 - St. Pancras International (Low Level) by Jack Gordon, on Flickr

700107 - Blackfriars by Jack Gordon, on Flickr

700108 - Blackfriars by Jack Gordon, on Flickr

 

[LBSCR Times]

Read the brief Pack as that's incorrect.

Ok, the 2nd and 14th coaches.....
I didn't realise there were pans on the 1st and 2nd coaches.

 

[AM9]

I can assure you that my season ticket is already well north of £5k. I don't drink coffee/tea on the train, so I'm not that bothered about tables but I would like a reasonably comfy seat. I'm hoping that the distance between the seats is sufficient so that my knees aren't rubbing on the back of the seat in front.

The comment was in reply to a post that sought to justify various creature comforts on the basis that the poster had paid a lot for his season ticket. My point is that season ticket travellers pay about the same as an off-peak passenger (based on 240-ish return peak journeys as is used by the TOCs) for access to the services that are heavily subsidised by a combination of off-peak passengers and a direct subsidy of public funds from the DfT.

I've already questioned the specification of these "Wundertrains" in this thread and been shot down in flames so many times I now have to wear asbestos gloves when I type.

As I have no alternative way of getting to and from work, I'm keen to experience the train under actual service conditions. When will the fare-paying public get a chance to enjoy the more comfortable standing experience?

I agree with you on that. There are so many comments about this or that being unacceptable based on no experience of the train in question. Only when they have been in de-bugged service for a few months, running through the peak with full loads, will comments based on actual experience be valid. The '700s have a demanding role to fulfil with very high passenger loads and short headways. Most passengers just want to get to and from their destinations safely, reliably and in reasonable comfort. I would consider that tables, windows/seats lining up and wi-fi shortfalls would be drowned out by the clamour of the designs failure to cope with the demands of the intensive high-capacity service, (and the St Albans lot, being the largest volume of Thameslink north passengers, will certainly make a lot of noise!).

 

[swt_passenger]

IIRC there is a maximum number of 8 cabs permitted in trains, does that mean we could see a 48 car train on the network?

The '8 cab' limit is all about certain older classes of DMU working in multiple, it isn't a general purpose limitation, or capability, that must be applied to every type of unit. Power restrictions, and the physical space it takes up on the tracks, will hit a hypothetical 48 car EMU first.

 

[po8crg]

I've seen trains with more than 8 cabs - when Merseyrail were rescuing trains when they had icing problems on the third rail last winter, they had at least eight units (ie 16 cabs) coupled together.

 

[tsr]

Compare and contrast...

(OK, Crewe isn't in Lincolnshire. Etc.)

 

[AM9]

Compare and contrast...

(OK, Crewe isn't in Lincolnshire. Etc.)

So how many passengers per day use that service?

 

[tsr]

So how many passengers per day use that service?

Not as many.

But it was a joke...

 

[D365]

Two cabs? That's cute.

 

[The Box Photter]

If only they'd specified end gangway connections in the Class 700s, by coupling them all together you'd be able to walk from St Pancras to St Albans without leaving the train!

 

[D365]

If only they'd specified end gangway connections in the Class 700s, by coupling them all together you'd be able to walk from St Pancras to St Albans without leaving the train!

For comparison, how far would the cumulative Class 442 fleet reach?

 

[Domh245]

For comparison, how far would the cumulative Class 442 fleet reach?

23*5*24=2760m~=St Pancras to Kentish Town

 

[The Box Photter]

23*5*24=2760m~=St Pancras to Kentish Town

Yes, not as far, but in much greater comfort.

 

[Bald Rick]

If only they'd specified end gangway connections in the Class 700s, by coupling them all together you'd be able to walk from St Pancras to St Albans without leaving the train!

Not quite. Elstree perhaps.

 

[physics34]

The £5K is irrelevant. In fact for Brighton to London Terminals it is £4408. For that you get anytime travel on 240 peak-hour return journeys of 102 miles, that's about 18p per mile. It's about 40% of an anytime ticket and almost as cheap as an off-peak ticket without all its restrictions. Sounds like a well subsidised journey on services that are the most expensive to provide.

Now back to essentials:
There is no way that a table is a NEED to have however much you would like it. Working toilets would be a need to have (which I accidentally left off the essential list) on journey over say 1 hour, (maybe less than that if you drink too much coffee.
Wi-fi is not essential but for some they feel a need for it. The problem is that although relatively easy to provide the hardware, once it is there, then whatever its capacity, (which depends on local reception, that the TOC cannot control) there will be those whose exessive demands will eventually render it less than useful. As many have noted, that well within the life of the class 700s, those passengers who simply must be connected to their internet mother ship will probably make their own provision for reliable 4G (or later generations) of WAN comms.
I can forsee a time, that there could be a cap put on free wi-fi data rates to prevent selfish users denying others basic access. Arguably, if TOCs, bus companies et al continue to increase online information provision at the expense of other means, e.g. verbal, station and train PIS details etc., that a basic wi-fi feed, able to deliver textual information to a full train might be regarded as essential.

Still think tables are a need to haveon longer distance journeys (and I mean seatback folding tables where required) for longer distance journeys, when many people now watch media on their 'devices' for example and the previously mentioned overpriced upper crust coffee.. It's one of those things that should be there to increase the experience of a rail journey. Not having them is blatantly cost cutting and/or ignoring customers needs. How many passengers who get on a train go straight to the table seats? Most of them.

Still don't know how the woman who gets on a London bridge train at woldingham every morning who treats the table as a dressing table whilst doing her make up is gonna cope! Ha ha.

 

[AM9]

Still think tables are a need to haveon longer distance journeys (and I mean seatback folding tables where required) for longer distance journeys, when many people now watch media on their 'devices' for example and the previously mentioned overpriced upper crust coffee.. It's one of those things that should be there to increase the experience of a rail journey. Not having them is blatantly cost cutting and/or ignoring customers needs. How many passengers who get on a train go straight to the table seats? Most of them.

Still don't know how the woman who gets on a London bridge train at woldingham every morning who treats the table as a dressing table whilst doing her make up is gonna cope! Ha ha.

Rail today is a means to an end:

profit for the TOCs (even if the franchise actually needs public funds to subsidise it to cover the costs).
a method to convey large numbers of people safely from A to B
a greener (and safer) way of doing the above compared with individual road vehicles.​

I wonder how many passengers have any real enthusiasm for an 'increase in the experience' that doesn't involve a reduction in the cost to them or a faster or more frequent journey. That is excepting the unfortunate Woldingham woman who doesn't allow enough time to do things in a way yhat doesn't inconvenience others.

The fact that passengers make a beeline for the table seats just means that they will take them if they are there. Would they stop travelling by train if they weren't there, - maybe a very few, but I doubt if any of them would stop for that reason alone, they would just manage with their coffee and/or media device without, - or read a book. The TOCs and the DfT know that and remember, the railway is a device to generate profit.

 

[Dr Iver]

Let's not forget that they spent two million quid on the consultation alone regarding the layout inside the train. This included train crew, controllers, signallers, managers and even cleaners were asked and this, the 700 we are seeing now, is what everyone agreed with in the final design so this moral outrage and harumping regarding tables/plugs is a bit too much considering it was the public who decided on it!!

 

[A-driver]

Let's not forget that they spent two million quid on the consultation alone regarding the layout inside the train. This included train crew, controllers, signallers, managers and even cleaners were asked and this, the 700 we are seeing now, is what everyone agreed with in the final design so this moral outrage and harumping regarding tables/plugs is a bit too much considering it was the public who decided on it!!

Lol. You mean they asked people what they wanted then filed it in the bin before going for the cheapest option!

Most points raised by train crews were ignored which is why there have been several delays with Aslef getting involved so far. Including door controls which independent medical experts stated would lead to various forms of RSI in the position they were in.

 

[Hadders]

Can you imagine a car manufacturer removing cup holders from a new range of cars?

Yet this is what is happening with the 700s.

I know their primary purpose is to move people but some consideration needs to be given to journey length etc.

 

[Domh245]

Can you imagine a car manufacturer removing cup holders from a new range of cars?

Yet this is what is happening with the 700s.

I know their primary purpose is to move people but some consideration needs to be given to journey length etc.

Can you imagine a situation where everyone on the train had to hold onto the seat in front of them with 2 hands for the course of the journey?

Apples and Oranges.

 

[67018]

The fact that passengers make a beeline for the table seats just means that they will take them if they are there. Would they stop travelling by train if they weren't there, - maybe a very few, but I doubt if any of them would stop for that reason alone, they would just manage with their coffee and/or media device without, - or read a book. The TOCs and the DfT know that and remember, the railway is a device to generate profit.

I'm not convinced that passengers make a beeline for the table seats. On my regular commute the airline seats always fill first. I'm sure there has been a debate on here at least once before, and the opinions were largely split.

Up thread there was (I think) a suggestion that lack of tables was something to do with saving weight and making the saloon as uncluttered as possible to facilitate fast loading/unloading of large volumes of people. Maybe, if this is the case, someone more knowledgeable can explain the reasoning a bit further.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can you imagine a car manufacturer removing cup holders from a new range of cars?

Yet this is what is happening with the 700s.

I know their primary purpose is to move people but some consideration needs to be given to journey length etc.

Average journey time on Thameslink? 25 minutes.

Number of tables and cup holders in standard class on the trains that ran Thameslink for the first 20 years? 0

 

[RichardN]

I'm not convinced that passengers make a beeline for the table seats. On my regular commute the airline seats always fill first. I'm sure there has been a debate on here at least once before, and the opinions were largely split.

Up thread there was (I think) a suggestion that lack of tables was something to do with saving weight and making the saloon as uncluttered as possible to facilitate fast loading/unloading of large volumes of people. Maybe, if this is the case, someone more knowledgeable can explain the reasoning a bit further.

The 2 + 2 coaches on the older 377s fill up first. The airline seats are also priority seats, so have a large pitch. They fill up as quickly as the tables, but there are fewer seats of this type. On SWT 455s the facing seats fill up faster than the airline seats, but again there are fewer seats like this...

 

[physics34]

Average journey time on Thameslink? 25 minutes.

Number of tables and cup holders in standard class on the trains that ran Thameslink for the first 20 years? 0

But now there will be many other journey options, and the train should cater for the highest common denominator. i.e people who may be on it for 2 hours. 377s on the brightons have been on there several years and were seen as an improvement on 319s.

 

[LBSCR Times]

But now there will be many other journey options, and the train should cater for the highest common denominator. i.e people who may be on it for 2 hours. 377s on the brightons have been on there several years and were seen as an improvement on 319s.

True, such as Worthing to London Bridge, for onward connections to Cannon Street, Blackfriars etc, which will become 700's.
Average journey time 86 minutes.
Number of years with a table......right back to the early 60's!

 

[AM9]

But now there will be many other journey options, and the train should cater for the highest common denominator. i.e people who may be on it for 2 hours. 377s on the brightons have been on there several years and were seen as an improvement on 319s.

So using your proposition, public transport should be organised on the basis of the longest journeys that passengers might make as opposed to the average. I can't speak for buses on the south coast but here in Hertfordshire, a major route is the Arriva 300/301 which runs between Hemel Hempstead and Stevenage. That takes about 2 hours so the buses would need on-board toilets, - DDA compliant of course, seats with tables, coffee cup holders, waste bins, wi-fi and sockets to charge all those things that weren't charged before the passenger boarded. Only problem is that with a 10 metre bus, there would only be enough room for about 10 passengers to sit. I suppose at least those starting at the beginning of the route would be really comfortable, - tough on anybody else! The same is true for some of the tube lines in London, end to end journey times approaching two hours, but the average passenger would take about 15-30 minutes.
If the average journey time on Thameslink was 80-120 minutes, the seating would be more like the Electrostars 2+2 or 2+3, - the 377/387s already running the services are a stop-gap because of the delays in the class 700 programme, (and let's not get into yet another RUK discussion about 3-seats). But the Thameslink services provide the stopper trains south of the river. North of London, the lines are faster and most journeys are slightly longer in distance, but not much different in elapsed time. Thameslink has more passengers at St Albans than at most of the other stations on the MML combined and the journey times from there into into St Pancras will mostly be between 20-30 minutes. Some passengers wouldn't even finish their coffee before they had to get off.

 

[Dr Iver]

Lol. You mean they asked people what they wanted then filed it in the bin before going for the cheapest option!

Most points raised by train crews were ignored which is why there have been several delays with Aslef getting involved so far. Including door controls which independent medical experts stated would lead to various forms of RSI in the position they were in.

My post was tongue-in-cheek as you probably gathered!

 

[Class377/5]

But now there will be many other journey options, and the train should cater for the highest common denominator. i.e people who may be on it for 2 hours. 377s on the brightons have been on there several years and were seen as an improvement on 319s.

Er half of the 377s carriages don't have tables ither so highest common denominator is no tables!