Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[ChiefPlanner]

Had a run up on no 14 yesterday - pretty good - bogies chatter a bit on MML track , but overall good ...this is the future ....

 

[Class377/5]

Had a run up on no 14 yesterday - pretty good - bogies chatter a bit on MML track , but overall good ...this is the future ....

Them give a good ride on the BML, haven't tried one properly on the MML (other than express while standing).

 

[tsr]

Them give a good ride on the BML, haven't tried one properly on the MML (other than express while standing).

With light to moderate loadings, better than a 455, 319 or 171/2 or /4, but significantly worse than a lot of the 377s and 442s, as well as most of the 171/7s or /8s. I should know, I ride all of the above (bar 442s now) on a very regular basis, and sign the BML, plus a number of the TL diversions around South London & several other routes now cleared for 700s. I had a very uncomfortable ride in a lightly-loaded 700 the other day through the Purley area again. A 377 on the same line not long afterwards did not behave the same way at all.

I would say, though, that when heavily loaded, they are actually much more acceptable. As this is no doubt increasingly going to be the experience of many regular users, I am not as concerned as I could be.

 

[Class377/5]

With light to moderate loadings, better than a 455, 319 or 171/2 or /4, but significantly worse than a lot of the 377s and 442s, as well as most of the 171/7s or /8s. I should know, I ride all of the above (bar 442s now) on a very regular basis, and sign the BML, plus a number of the TL diversions around South London & several other routes now cleared for 700s. I had a very uncomfortable ride in a lightly-loaded 700 the other day through the Purley area again. A 377 on the same line not long afterwards did not behave the same way at all.

I would say, though, that when heavily loaded, they are actually much more acceptable. As this is no doubt increasingly going to be the experience of many regular users, I am not as concerned as I could be.

On the BML known bad junctions they are the best stock I've travelled on (and my colleagues all agree on this). Funny you mention Purley, over the recently relaid tracks?

Where in South London do you feel is a poor ride then?

 

[richa2002]

All I can say is thank god the rear compartment on these is declassified. If not, my regular journeys from Harpenden to Brighton wouldn't be too pleasant. As it happens though, this poorly advertised declassified section offers a half decent journey (for 2016 anyway).

Have to agree on the poor ride comments though. Definitely not as smooth as a 377/387/319, and they can be a bit choppy!

 

[tsr]

On the BML known bad junctions they are the best stock I've travelled on (and my colleagues all agree on this). Funny you mention Purley, over the recently relaid tracks?

Where in South London do you feel is a poor ride then?

Recent poor (not necessarily rough, as such) ride in that area that I've experienced has been at the South throat of East Croydon (over the points in general, but mainly via the Down Fast & Fast Reversible), DF around Purley Oaks and through Purley, on the Up Slow on approach to Stoats Nest Jn. On these bits of track I am usually on a 377, though sometimes a 455/319, or a 171 if at East Croydon. There are other places too, but those are the most distinct.

As I understand it, the bulk of the renewals recently has been on the Slow Lines through Purley station itself, which is not included on my list. I never felt the actual ride quality of any train through there was particularly bad anyway, though I can of course understand why there could have been a multitude of other factors dictating heavy maintenance was required.

I've also felt very strange sensations such as rocking motion on 700s which I've not felt at the same locations on any other stock, such as accelerating over the M25 bridge just North of Merstham station. Other bad locations in the last couple of months have included the approaches to Platforms 10/11/12 at London Bridge, which strikes me as strange to say the least, as well as Tinsley Green and Gatwick North. To be fair Tinsley Green can be rough on a 377 as well, and I often have to make sure I'm within reach of a handrail. Obviously I appreciate that there are some locations which are currently pretty bumpy on all traction, such as the Up Fast adjacent to Salfords Aggregates and at Earlswood South Jn, and I'm very well used to such joys as the combination of Greenhurst Junction and 171s, or the rollercoaster that is Ockley-Warnham, so it's hardly like I'm going to be especially picky when it comes to this type of stuff!

Having not been on the whole 700 fleet, I can't say if it's unit-specific but it doesn't feel like it. As I say, the effects are much reduced when the units are heavily loaded, and if they have numerous standees or they're running full and standing, the problem is almost completely diminished.

 

[Bald Rick]

With light to moderate loadings, better than a 455, 319 or 171/2 or /4, but significantly worse than a lot of the 377s and 442s, as well as most of the 171/7s or /8s. I should know, I ride all of the above (bar 442s now) on a very regular basis, and sign the BML, plus a number of the TL diversions around South London & several other routes now cleared for 700s. I had a very uncomfortable ride in a lightly-loaded 700 the other day through the Purley area again. A 377 on the same line not long afterwards did not behave the same way at all.

I would say, though, that when heavily loaded, they are actually much more acceptable. As this is no doubt increasingly going to be the experience of many regular users, I am not as concerned as I could be.

This is curious, as on the MML the 700s are far, far better riding than electrostars or 319s on the bad spots on the Down Fast, namely Cricklewood S Jn, Silkstream and around Scratchwood. Bear in mind the 319s will be lucky to be doing 85 at these points, whilst the 700s and electrostars will be at 100.

 

[asylumxl]

This is curious, as on the MML the 700s are far, far better riding than electrostars or 319s on the bad spots on the Down Fast, namely Cricklewood S Jn, Silkstream and around Scratchwood. Bear in mind the 319s will be lucky to be doing 85 at these points, whilst the 700s and electrostars will be at 100.

I honestly think the 319s are only slightly worse than the 700s. The Electrostars on the other hand are awful and bottom out constantly.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does anything about the 700s suspension get automatically adjusted according to the passenger load?

 

[ComUtoR]

This is curious, as on the MML the 700s are far, far better riding than electrostars or 319s on the bad spots on the Down Fast, namely Cricklewood S Jn, Silkstream and around Scratchwood. Bear in mind the 319s will be lucky to be doing 85 at these points, whilst the 700s and electrostars will be at 100.

Cricklewood South is 95mph and I'm assuming that the 700 is not stopping at West Hampstead.

I've been up the pointy end on the up and it can certainly shift and I didn't even see the Driver use full power.

 

[swt class 450]

Does anyone know why the 22:22 Bedford to Brighton 01:03 is using a 387 today instead of the usual 700?

 

[childwallblues]

Does anyone know why the 22:22 Bedford to Brighton 01:03 is using a 387 today instead of the usual 700?

700 failure?

 

[Class377/5]

Does anything about the 700s suspension get automatically adjusted according to the passenger load?

In a way yes.

Does anyone know why the 22:22 Bedford to Brighton 01:03 is using a 387 today instead of the usual 700?

Properly driver no cover. Take it was a 8 car 387 as its booked 8 car 700.

 

[SAPhil]

What's happened to the 12-car units? Both the train I caught last night and two in a row this morning were 8-car versions when they are all usually 12 cars. Not good in the rush hour

 

[samuelmorris]

Interesting fault I noticed this morning on 700105 - one of the lighting panels flickered on and off regularly (the whole panel, but only one of them, rest of the vehicle seemed fine), but that stopped as soon as the train switched from DC to AC. I can only assume the voltage to the lighting circuit is higher when the train is fed from AC but that does surprise me as I would have expected it to be the same regardless. A bit shabby for an LED controller to be going bad on a unit that's only been in service for a week, but I suppose it could be a lot worse. Everything else seemed functional although I still think the 6-7 second automatic door opening time on some of the units (including that one) could be improved. Had 700104 on the way back and that performed the same. I'm sure I've seen some 700s do it faster, unless the way it works has been changed.

 

[Bald Rick]

What's happened to the 12-car units? Both the train I caught last night and two in a row this morning were 8-car versions when they are all usually 12 cars. Not good in the rush hour

Indeed. There were several hundred people left behind after the second one (I counted 50 people left behind from just one coach in the middle) which given that particular service has only been 12 car for a few weeks does indicate how busy they are.

 

[Deepgreen]

Recent poor (not necessarily rough, as such) ride in that area that I've experienced has been at the South throat of East Croydon (over the points in general, but mainly via the Down Fast & Fast Reversible), DF around Purley Oaks and through Purley, on the Up Slow on approach to Stoats Nest Jn. On these bits of track I am usually on a 377, though sometimes a 455/319, or a 171 if at East Croydon. There are other places too, but those are the most distinct.

As I understand it, the bulk of the renewals recently has been on the Slow Lines through Purley station itself, which is not included on my list. I never felt the actual ride quality of any train through there was particularly bad anyway, though I can of course understand why there could have been a multitude of other factors dictating heavy maintenance was required.

I've also felt very strange sensations such as rocking motion on 700s which I've not felt at the same locations on any other stock, such as accelerating over the M25 bridge just North of Merstham station. Other bad locations in the last couple of months have included the approaches to Platforms 10/11/12 at London Bridge, which strikes me as strange to say the least, as well as Tinsley Green and Gatwick North. To be fair Tinsley Green can be rough on a 377 as well, and I often have to make sure I'm within reach of a handrail. Obviously I appreciate that there are some locations which are currently pretty bumpy on all traction, such as the Up Fast adjacent to Salfords Aggregates and at Earlswood South Jn, and I'm very well used to such joys as the combination of Greenhurst Junction and 171s, or the rollercoaster that is Ockley-Warnham, so it's hardly like I'm going to be especially picky when it comes to this type of stuff!

Having not been on the whole 700 fleet, I can't say if it's unit-specific but it doesn't feel like it. As I say, the effects are much reduced when the units are heavily loaded, and if they have numerous standees or they're running full and standing, the problem is almost completely diminished.

Funnily enough, I happened to at Merstham station yesterday while caught up in the failed trains debacle and noticed a significant undulation in the up line's right hand running rail (facing north) between the platform end and the M25 bridge. I have yet to travel on a 700, but the 377s don't seem too bad a this spot.
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Indeed. There were several hundred people left behind after the second one (I counted 50 people left behind from just one coach in the middle) which given that particular service has only been 12 car for a few weeks does indicate how busy they are.

So - have most of the 700/1s lost their shoes (!), or what else may be causing their absence?

 

[jon0844]

A bit shabby for an LED controller to be going bad on a unit that's only been in service for a week

I guess with most electronics, the time to fail is going to be pretty soon after being first used. As long as it's pretty isolated, hopefully nothing to worry about.

If they don't go wrong early on, chances are they'll last for ages - unless there's an inherent design fault.

 

[D365]

Eh? It could be as simple as a component failure or a bad solder joint.

 

[Bald Rick]

I honestly think the 319s are only slightly worse than the 700s. The Electrostars on the other hand are awful and bottom out constantly.

By coincidence I was on a relatively empty 700 today (perhaps only half full). It was a much worse ride than when there's an extra 1000 people on board. That extra 6 tonnes per coach makes all the difference.

 

[tsr]

By coincidence I was on a relatively empty 700 today (perhaps only half full). It was a much worse ride than when there's an extra 1000 people on board. That extra 6 tonnes per coach makes all the difference.

Exactly my point. To paraphrase, what we have here is (from your experience as stated, and mine on many other occasions) a train which is only comfortable to stand in when it is also simultaneously uncomfortable due to the volume of people having to stand in it.

Unfortunately this also means that the times which people may pick for relatively quiet leisure travel are also those times when the trains aren't sufficiently weighted to react as comfortably to the track, meaning when you need to fill the trains, people might be put off.

 

[Bald Rick]

Exactly my point. To paraphrase, what we have here is (from your experience as stated, and mine on many other occasions) a train which is only comfortable to stand in when it is also simultaneously uncomfortable due to the volume of people having to stand in it.

Unfortunately this also means that the times which people may pick for relatively quiet leisure travel are also those times when the trains aren't sufficiently weighted to react as comfortably to the track, meaning when you need to fill the trains, people might be put off.

I think it unlikely that people would choose not to use the train because of a slight bump at Scratchwood

To be fair, I was specifically on the look out (strictly, feel out) for a bad ride as it was my first trip on the down on a lightly loaded train. I'm not sure I would have noticed it if I hadn't been looking.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think TL is ever going to struggle to find users to fill carriages, but I get your point. I suppose the real solution is to improve the track.

 

[asylumxl]

I think it unlikely that people would choose not to use the train because of a slight bump at Scratchwood

A slight bump? In an Electrostar you get thrown every which way and bloody get whiplash!

 

[ComUtoR]

When my units get really busy and overcrowded I tend to drive smoother than normal. I tend to be smooth anyway but I am more conscious of it when there is any overcrowding. It's the least I can do.

From a technical and 700 relevant point. Does ATO have a smooth braking curve ? I've read that it bolts out the station and charges up to a signal and hits the anchor and generally a more aggressive driving style. Does the ATO braking curve adapt to the passenger load ? I know ATO through the core is a long way off.

 

[tsr]

A slight bump? In an Electrostar you get thrown every which way and bloody get whiplash!

You don't at Purley Oaks...

 

[Bald Rick]

A slight bump? In an Electrostar you get thrown every which way and bloody get whiplash!

I agree (except for the whiplash). But on a loaded 700 it's barely a quiver.
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When my units get really busy and overcrowded I tend to drive smoother than normal. I tend to be smooth anyway but I am more conscious of it when there is any overcrowding. It's the least I can do.

From a technical and 700 relevant point. Does ATO have a smooth braking curve ? I've read that it bolts out the station and charges up to a signal and hits the anchor and generally a more aggressive driving style. Does the ATO braking curve adapt to the passenger load ? I know ATO through the core is a long way off.

I doubt ATO will adapt to pax loads. I'm reasonably sure that it won't be as aggressive as on the tube though.

Incidentally it's not that far off - testing has started I understand.

 

[Class377/5]

Eh? It could be as simple as a component failure or a bad solder joint.

But where's the drama in that?

I think it unlikely that people would choose not to use the train because of a slight bump at Scratchwood

To be fair, I was specifically on the look out (strictly, feel out) for a bad ride as it was my first trip on the down on a lightly loaded train. I'm not sure I would have noticed it if I hadn't been looking.

Do those that actually travel out side those that are interested in the railways even notice? My experience is not unless its very severe like Stoats nest used to be like.

I don't think TL is ever going to struggle to find users to fill carriages, but I get your point. I suppose the real solution is to improve the track.

Ah but its a way of complaining about the 700s. This thead seems to now think track defects are supposed to be fixed by a train.

A slight bump? In an Electrostar you get thrown every which way and bloody get whiplash!

If its that bad, it'd be reported. Truth is I've seen nothing reported by the public (and they do report rough rides alot). The reason why I asked for more details is this is the first mention of this 'issue' I've seen reported.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do those that actually travel out side those that are interested in the railways even notice? My experience is not unless its very severe like Stoats nest used to be like.

If its that bad, it'd be reported. Truth is I've seen nothing reported by the public (and they do report rough rides alot). The reason why I asked for more details is this is the first mention of this 'issue' I've seen reported.

In my experience the poor ride at Cricklewood is certainly noticed by the Muggles, but only when on a 377 / 387. Less so further north unless it is a particularly soft unit.

The poor ride is reported (by me) when it starts to get consistently worse.

 

[Goldfish62]

I agree (except for the whiplash). But on a loaded 700 it's barely a quiver.
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I doubt ATO will adapt to pax loads. I'm reasonably sure that it won't be as aggressive as on the tube though.

Incidentally it's not that far off - testing has started I understand.

The only line where I'd describe ATO as aggressive is the Central, which has an older "all or nothing" system.