Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[AM9]

I guess that Siemens are numbering everything sequentially, so train 1 would have been 700101, train 2 was 700102 up to train 15 (700115) before switching to the 8 cars. Probably

I imagine that just like aircraft, Siemens will give each unit sequential numbers for various reasons:
its path through the production line will be against a number
its progress through final testing will be against a number
its certification number
its delivery consignment
its customer acceptance number
for a given unit, some of those numbers may be the same, providing that there are no problems or test failures in manufacture, final test, certification, delivery or acceptance. They will however have a continuing significance during the period of the support contract.
The TOPS/EU code painted on each unit when delivered is for end-user systems only and I doubt that there is any official recognition of it once the stock has left the paint shops.

 

[Class377/5]

I have a feeling we have been through this before on this thread. The 700's stopping window is designed around the eventual use of automatic door open (the doors open as soon as the train stops, as long as the train is in the right place). This is part of the ATO functionality.

Correct. The Core will be far more uniform that outside.

Are these "unit numbers" different from the Siemens production numbers? Only... 700 018 has been running around on test with notices in the windows saying "zug 33".

i.e. "train 33".

Nothing connected to that. Just my way of keeping count of how many we are up to on in easy to read way.

Siemens does have a build methods although I don't know it. However Zug basically means unit in English so that's one way we have of seeing which one of the actual build it was.

I guess that Siemens are numbering everything sequentially, so train 1 would have been 700101, train 2 was 700102 up to train 15 (700115) before switching to the 8 cars. Probably

Nope. IIRC the build was 700101-106 as pre production trains where various parts were test and any mods made to the production batch.

The 8th train built was 700002, that was shown off to the press a few years ago (Im pretty sure of that as I joked with someone about the fact it was also the 8th delivery).

Don't forget the announced batch are as follows...

1 - 11x 700/1
2 - 6x 700/0
3 - 4x 700/1
4 - 40x 700/0
5 - 30x 700/1
6 - 12x 700/0
7 - 10x 700/1
8 - 2x 700/0

Note were are currently receiving deliveries from batch 4. However deliveries do not have to follow this pattern.

Worth noting here the 700/0 had thier own testing to be done that was similar to the 700/1 hence early build of the first two 8 cars compared to the batches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I imagine that just like aircraft, Siemens will give each unit sequential numbers for various reasons:
its path through the production line will be against a number
its progress through final testing will be against a number
its certification number
its delivery consignment
its customer acceptance number
for a given unit, some of those numbers may be the same, providing that there are no problems or test failures in manufacture, final test, certification, delivery or acceptance. They will however have a continuing significance during the period of the support contract.
The TOPS/EU code painted on each unit when delivered is for end-user systems only and I doubt that there is any official recognition of it once the stock has left the paint shops.

None of that applies. All carriages have a destination in mind as part of the overall plan.

 

[tsr]

The 700's stopping window is designed around the eventual use of automatic door open (the doors open as soon as the train stops, as long as the train is in the right place).

The trains already do this - complete with PIS commentary! I think I posted this "upthread".

 

[D365]

However Zug basically means unit in English so that's one way we have of seeing which one of the actual build it was.

Not quite; "Zug" means train, whilst "Triebwagen" means multiple unit

 

[AM9]

... None of that applies. All carriages have a destination in mind as part of the overall plan.

So what happens if a single car fails test or has a breakdown etc.?
Is the whole production line stopped until it is cleared, the faulty car swapped out or the whole unit moved further down the queue?

 

[Class377/5]

So what happens if a single car fails test or has a breakdown etc.?
Is the whole production line stopped until it is cleared, the faulty car swapped out or the whole unit moved further down the queue?

How would you know if it was fault while building? You'd only know that when it's shipped out for testing. And no the productions lines (there's four IIRC) don't shut down.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not quite; "Zug" means train, whilst "Triebwagen" means multiple unit

And? Basically the same thing in this case as the train is a single unit.

 

[Starmill]

The trains already do this - complete with PIS commentary! I think I posted this "upthread".

PIS commentary regarding the doors opening automatically? Nice.

 

[AM9]

How would you know if it was fault while building? You'd only know that when it's shipped out for testing. And no the productions lines (there's four IIRC) don't shut down.

Because any complex equipment should be progressively tested/cleared throughout its manufacturing process as the cost of failure rises the later faults are found. You have already told us that the train is crammed full of electronics with complex wiring interconnections, specifically in the roof. In a live production environment, every practicable measure is taken to reduce the risk of damage to components, infrastructure integrity (mechanical & wiring) and mismatching of key interface tolerances. In the real world, even where costs are not the prime driver, accidents and shortfalls do occur.
So when these measures don't cover the unexpected, units affected cannot just be built blindly hoping that the problem will go away when it all gets switched on. To repeat my earlier post, there are then three options, all potentially disruptive to a serial production line:

Is the whole production line stopped until it (the issue) is cleared
the faulty car (or assembly/equipment/component/material) swapped out
the whole unit (quarantined and) moved further down the queue​

In my personal experience specifically with German multinational companies, good as they are, they are no more immune to such problems and they always plan for such events.
Of course, serial/identity numbers are fixed at the point of shipment, and the order in which they appear may not be the same as that in which the structures were first laid out at the beginning of the production line. So the documentation showing the 'as built' status may contain many out-of-sequence serial numbers, depending on how clean the unit's path through production was. The TOPS/EU scheme number is only of relevance to the train in service in the UK.

 

[Class377/5]

Because any complex equipment should be progressively tested/cleared throughout its manufacturing process as the cost of failure rises the later faults are found. You have already told us that the train is crammed full of electronics with complex wiring interconnections, specifically in the roof. In a live production environment, every practicable measure is taken to reduce the risk of damage to components, infrastructure integrity (mechanical & wiring) and mismatching of key interface tolerances. In the real world, even where costs are not the prime driver, accidents and shortfalls do occur.
So when these measures don't cover the unexpected, units affected cannot just be built blindly hoping that the problem will go away when it all gets switched on. To repeat my earlier post, there are then three options, all potentially disruptive to a serial production line:

Is the whole production line stopped until it (the issue) is cleared
the faulty car (or assembly/equipment/component/material) swapped out
the whole unit (quarantined and) moved further down the queue​

In my personal experience specifically with German multinational companies, good as they are, they are no more immune to such problems and they always plan for such events.
Of course, serial/identity numbers are fixed at the point of shipment, and the order in which they appear may not be the same as that in which the structures were first laid out at the beginning of the production line. So the documentation showing the 'as built' status may contain many out-of-sequence serial numbers, depending on how clean the unit's path through production was. The TOPS/EU scheme number is only of relevance to the train in service in the UK.

You may not be aware that you cannot do such tesing on fixed formation at Krefield (partly because it's not electrified), hence why Siemens has a full testing facility at Wildenrath where full system testing is done with minor work carried out there if required.

You cannot test the 700 equipment fully until it's interconnected. You can do basic part testing on individual components but that can be done off site.

Asking for full testing is a bit like trying to test a plane on the assembly line. Not something you do either.

 

[physics34]

People seem outraged that there aren't Tables, armrests, Plugs or Wifi on these. I commute on trains without these into London currently and will do for many years to come. Does it bother me or most of the people on these trains? I think you'll find the answer is no. They just want it to get them to where they need to be in a decent time in relative comfort. Which is the primary purpose of a train in the busy south of England - Mass transportation.

thats all well and good but some commuters will be spending a total of up to 3 1/2 hours a day on these units....and some leisure travellers will utilise these service to travel for over an hour to Luton and Gatwick Airport..and even day trips to Brighton and Cambridge for example. Bottom line is, the longer distance units should be a sub class or more comfort.

 

[387star]

remind me when full 700 use will commence on all TL routes?

Am I correct in thinking the services driven by southeastern drivers to kent house sevenoaks etc will be the last to go over to 700s or are southeastern drivers trained?

Have the first 377s gone back to southern yet?

 

[westcoaster]

remind me when full 700 use will commence on all TL routes?

Am I correct in thinking the services driven by southeastern drivers to kent house sevenoaks etc will be the last to go over to 700s or are southeastern drivers trained?

Have the first 377s gone back to southern yet?

I'm sure it was said SE services will start a month after the Wimbledon loop (iirc please don't quote me on it), I'm lead 5o believe SE driver training starts in December.

 

[Class377/5]

remind me when full 700 use will commence on all TL routes?

Am I correct in thinking the services driven by southeastern drivers to kent house sevenoaks etc will be the last to go over to 700s or are southeastern drivers trained?

Have the first 377s gone back to southern yet?

No dates been officially given for full 700 usage but it's 2017.

The Southeastern drivers started learning after the Thameslink drivers. Not quite sure where they are at but over the summer they were putting the training package together and going on 700s.

However I'm sure the Kent House is Thameslink drivers not SE so goes over fairly soon.

No 377s have yet been released. Don't think they do just yet as some work needs to be done on the fleet prior to cascade to Southern.

 

[Mordac]

No dates been officially given for full 700 usage but it's 2017.

The Southeastern drivers started learning after the Thameslink drivers. Not quite sure where they are at but over the summer they were putting the training package together and going on 700s.

However I'm sure the Kent House is Thameslink drivers not SE so goes over fairly soon.

No 377s have yet been released. Don't think they do just yet as some work needs to be done on the fleet prior to cascade to Southern.

If you don't mind me asking, do you know when the final batch of 319s is released for Northern, or can't you say?

 

[Class377/5]

If you don't mind me asking, do you know when the final batch of 319s is released for Northern, or can't you say?

Is that the final few they are expecting? It's soonish but not really paid attention to it.

 

[Bishopstone]

Made two short hops on 700s today.

This evening, the PIS was stuck on the 'Don't annoy other passengers with loud phone calls or music' screen.

This morning - 07.48 from Brighton - I thought the background temperature was exactly right, where 377 (and 442) heating/aircon can be a bit iffy on cold mornings. Still impressed with the ride quality, also.

But... the 07.48 was an 8-car unit. From Haywards Heath most joiners had to stand, and the loading indicator suggested there were no seats bar a few in coach one, ie first class.

There is a modest churn on Thameslink services at Three Bridges (for Crawley) and Gatwick, which creates seats for some of the Haywards Heath set, but I watched the train depart Gatwick with 20-40 standees per carriage: most, no doubt, on board for the 50 minute ride to the Thameslink core.

I'm unimpressed at the use of an 8-car variant on such a service. Do the commuters of Flitwick and Harlington have to stand on their fifty minute rides to work?

 

[Mordac]

Is that the final few they are expecting? It's soonish but not really paid attention to it.

To be honest I'm not sure. I've heard all sorts of conflicting numbers about how many have already gone. I think it's pretty certain that there's 4 gone already, and I've heard everything from 5 to 8 gone in total. So they'd need anything from 4 to 7 to make up the total 12. So no actual idea. Would really appreciate some gen on this, but I understand if it's only tangentially related to the thread. I've just been wondering if they had dropped to the bottom of the queue because from what you've been saying it's 377s and 387s that are being displaced now.

EDIT: What I've gleaned from Today's Railways is: 319004/005/219/431/442 at Wolverton. Everything else hasn't turned up yet and is just from conflicting online sources.

 

[ComUtoR]

The Southeastern drivers started learning after the Thameslink drivers. Not quite sure where they are at but over the summer they were putting the training package together and going on 700s.

Not started yet.

 

[mrmatt]

Do the commuters of Flitwick and Harlington have to stand on their fifty minute rides to work?

This morning some had to due to the fast service being delayed 20 minutes so the next semi-fast 4 minutes later was busier than usual. Before the 700s the semi-fast was an 8 coach train. The 700 this morning swallowed up the extra passengers and I didn't see anyone left at St Albans as would have been the case before they were introduced.

So from that perspective it did its job well (if not a little ram packed in places)!

 

[AM9]

thats all well and good but some commuters will be spending a total of up to 3 1/2 hours a day on these units....and some leisure travellers will utilise these service to travel for over an hour to Luton and Gatwick Airport..and even day trips to Brighton and Cambridge for example. Bottom line is, the longer distance units should be a sub class or more comfort.

If the mean journey time on Thameslink is the 25 minutes as has been stated more than once in this forum, it would seem that the comfort levels are appropriate for that sort of time. For it to be a mean, it must be so for a very large proportion of the total as there can't be many who travel much less than that on Thameslink. Of course there are a few who travel for much longer than that but the trains are optimised for the majority of their passengers to be able to cope with the loading levels expected rather than the few.
That is the same as all rolling stock, e.g., the Central Line tubes travel from Epping to West Ruislip in about 1hr 25mins but the passenger accomodation is designed for the average journey times of around 20-30 mins. Conversely, the mean journey times on the ECML, WCML and GWML are probably nearer 2+ hrs, so there is an expectation that passengers will need a different passenger experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This morning some had to due to the fast service being delayed 20 minutes so the next semi-fast 4 minutes later was busier than usual. Before the 700s the semi-fast was an 8 coach train. The 700 this morning swallowed up the extra passengers and I didn't see anyone left at St Albans as would have been the case before they were introduced.

So from that perspective it did its job well (if not a little ram packed in places)!

The ability of the class 700s to recover the service with their very high capacity under crush load conditions is key to successful operation of 24tph passenger levels. It's good to see that they are demonstrating their crowd-clearing abilities so early in their deployment.

 

[Bald Rick]

If the mean journey time on Thameslink is the 25 minutes as has been stated more than once in this forum, it would seem that the comfort levels are appropriate for that sort of time. For it to be a mean, it must be so for a very large proportion of the total as there can't be many who travel much less than that on Thameslink.

Speaking for north of the river only... around 30% of Thameslink passengers are on board for less than 12 minutes, and around another 40% for less than 25...

 

[bramling]

Speaking for north of the river only... around 30% of Thameslink passengers are on board for less than 12 minutes, and around another 40% for less than 25...

Presumably that doesn't include Great Northern. As already posted on here, 25 minutes barely gets you from London to Stevenage or Welwyn depending on stopping pattern.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably that doesn't include Great Northern. As already posted on here, 25 minutes barely gets you from London to Stevenage or Welwyn depending on stopping pattern.

Correct, as Thameslink doesn't serve the GN (for another 18 months or so).

 

[D365]

Correct, as Thameslink doesn't serve the GN (for another 18 months or so).

Though I believe several Class 700s will be operating into Kings Cross before then.

 

[Bald Rick]

Though I believe several Class 700s will be operating into Kings Cross before then.

Quite so. But on GN services (albeit with Thameslink on the side of the train!)

 

[D365]

Operationally I can see the benefit of all Class 700s being specified with a metro interior, the problem is that Thameslink is basically looking like it's going to become an XXL metro.

However like I said before, GTR can afford to lose passengers. There's always going to be more to fill the void. It's not the best but it is what it is.

(Before I'm accused of a lack of empathy, do bear in mind that I am planning to commute in the near future)

 

[asylumxl]

Speaking for north of the river only... around 30% of Thameslink passengers are on board for less than 12 minutes, and around another 40% for less than 25...

12 minutes? I'm gonna need you to cite a source.

 

[Abpj17]

12 minutes? I'm gonna need you to cite a source.

Ditto - that really doesn't feel right.

[I'm still mourning tables - it's killing my commuting productivity levels]

 

[bramling]

Ditto - that really doesn't feel right.

[I'm still mourning tables - it's killing my commuting productivity levels]

I would imagine the figures are heavily weighed by short-hop journeys in the core, and perhaps by St Albans which accounts for a comparatively high number of journeys, and the fact that passengers from Luton Airport Parkway, Luton and Bedford have the option of EMT for some journeys.

It's a safe bet that the average length would increase if GN were taken into account. There's nowhere on the GN as heavily concentrated as St Albans. My impression is the busiest stations are Hatfield, Welwyn, Stevenage, Hitchin, Biggleswade, St Neots, Huntingdon, Letchworth and Royston, plus of course Cambridge and Peterborough. All of these with the exception of Hatfield are roughly 25 minutes or more from London, and apart from Cambridge and Peterborough there's no Intercity/express service except a limited one from Stevenage.

As an aside, there seems to be a push locally for the proposed King's Cross to Royston peak service to run hourly through the off-peak too. This wasn't something I thought of, but actually it sounds like not a bad plan. It would allow one of the stopping TL-Cambridge services to be diverted up towards Peterborough, giving the Peterborough branch 3tph, and maintaining the link between the Peterborough branch and the intermediate stations like Welwyn GC and Hatfield. Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton could still get 2tph if one of the semi-fast Thameslink trains stop there, with the added benefit of giving them a regular semi-fast service to London for the first time ever. Should be plenty of 365s available during the off-peak, so to my eyes this idea works rather well, and presumably if formed of 2x365 could provide a use for the otherwise under-utilised suburban platforms at King's Cross. It also resolves the issue of the faster Thameslink trains being proposed to omit Baldock, which has provoked local outrage there.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does the system that generates the loading data log anything that could be used by TL to analyse trends in passenger numbers?