Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Class 466]

Yes, this is one of the main operational issues with the units. Missing the stop mark results in being unable to open any doors, unlike the 377 which will still open the minimum number. Also, the SDO system is somehow tied to the PIS code, no PIS code means that the train will only open the front 4 at each station, and the system has a habit of dropping the stored PIS code without warning during the journey.

I've read there's a similar issue with the AC/DC changeover: if the driver isn't exactly on the GPS-defined coordinates the system will refuse to changeover.

In all cases, the egress handles are available for emergency use so there is no danger, just inconvenience.

I've been on a few 700s without a code entered and the doors have functioned correctly. I'd imagine half the time people say that the screens were broken, they weren't, there just wasn't a PIS code on the drivers schedule card.

In any case, there's a lot of people picking holes on what is a brand new train with technology not seen on any train in this country before. There's going to be glitches, I personally like them and a lot of the issues raised won't be raised by the majority.

People seem outraged that there aren't Tables, armrests, Plugs or Wifi on these. I commute on trains without these into London currently and will do for many years to come. Does it bother me or most of the people on these trains? I think you'll find the answer is no. They just want it to get them to where they need to be in a decent time in relative comfort. Which is the primary purpose of a train in the busy south of England - Mass transportation.

 

[Class2ldn]

No if there's no pis code to put in the doors will default to 4. Even if we have the correct code it doesn't mean the pis will be working inside the train

 

[Class377/5]

Yes, this is one of the main operational issues with the units. Missing the stop mark results in being unable to open any doors, unlike the 377 which will still open the minimum number. Also, the SDO system is somehow tied to the PIS code, no PIS code means that the train will only open the front 4 at each station, and the system has a habit of dropping the stored PIS code without warning during the journey.

I've read there's a similar issue with the AC/DC changeover: if the driver isn't exactly on the GPS-defined coordinates the system will refuse to changeover.

In all cases, the egress handles are available for emergency use so there is no danger, just inconvenience.

Missing the stopping Mark on a 377 will stop the doors opening. Especially in the Core, just just the window for a 700 is smaller. Worth noting the Electrostar's have a more basic override compared to the 700s.

Note there no GPS for changeover as it's done underground northbound and partially underground southbound. It runs off track balise (for the record so do the 377/387s but use a different system but same basic principles).

If you miss the Mark you press some buttons (FASDO for Core, MSDO outside it) and the doors can be opened. It's not a complex situation, however it's very different order to what's on the Electrostar's. It this that is causing drivers headaches as they are doing the standard practice on what they are used to. Learning curve is improving and it's becoming less of an issue.

There is a way to the force a unit to use a different code, however Driver needs to be warned first as it will alert him to it while on the move (distraction possibility). Just a driver needs to contact Fleet first to get it done.

 

[glbotu]

Just a thought, but couldn't the units do with a quick software upgrade to allow RLUs to stop ANYWHERE between the FLU and RLU marks? Surely there isn't a situation where this would cause a problem? It just seems that enforcing a really tight stopping mark on drivers, when there aren't any notable safety implications seems a bit pointless.

 

[ComUtoR]

The SDO System isn't tied into the PIS code.

The PIS software is tied into the location detection.

Which is it ?

 

[Class377/5]

Just a thought, but couldn't the units do with a quick software upgrade to allow RLUs to stop ANYWHERE between the FLU and RLU marks? Surely there isn't a situation where this would cause a problem? It just seems that enforcing a really tight stopping mark on drivers, when there aren't any notable safety implications seems a bit pointless.

No. The standards are rasping ever higher in making sure accidental opening are reduced future. The vast majority of drivers are already adapting to it. LOOK at how quickly reports on here have dropped.

Which is it ?

It's tied in. In fact I read the recent drivers brief to it just yesterday.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which is it ?

It's both.

The PIS software relies on the location detection system.

The SDO software relies on the location detection system.


So the software is all linked, but only in certain circumstances will a failure in one one trigger the other.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers.

Who decided the stopping points ? They really do appear to have been placed on the nearest convenient pole. There is no consistency where they have been placed and are very different to the existing stop markers.

I appreciate the unit length is different and there are various stock that uses each route but to create an entirely new stopping point that is wholly different to existing behaviour and infrastructure just seems crazy. We now have a very crowded set of signage around a safety critical point.

 

[W230]

Who decided the stopping points ? They really do appear to have been placed on the nearest convenient pole. There is no consistency where they have been placed and are very different to the existing stop markers.

I believe they've been decided relating to the disabled coach. The plan being that the wheelchair ramps are located on station walls right next to said coach. This way it doesn't matter if it's a FLU or a RLU, the disabled coach (including ramp and therefore staff) will all be together for a quick exit. I understand this to be the idea anyway....

The more I drive these trains the more I like them. I know i've been rather singing their praises recently but after another week of them I've not even had one with a minor fault let alone anything to lead to them being cancelled. In fact i've not had to cancel one in the time i've been driving them (over 4 months). Maybe i've been lucky but i'm a convert. The well drilled commuters will see these capable of 24tph I really think it can be done. Of course, whether they can all arrive at the core at the right time is another thing, and in my opinion the biggest challenge to actually having 24tph!!

 

[Clip]

Is 018 a new delivery on test? Just saw it trundle through Norwood junction empty but with stickers on windows

 

[Failed Unit]

I agree I don't think the trains will be the issue, just very interested about how they get the timetable to work. Great northern can't manage 50% right time. If that happens in 2018 we have no chance. The Welwyn viaduct isn't going anywhere but watching the peak a WGC they need to increase the dwell if possible at Stevenage & WGC / Finsbury Park.

Currently if a service from Cambridge/ Peterborough is late out of Welwyn the the following stopper is held so it isn't followed. The delay to the stopper then cascades to the next fast as it struggles from Alexander palace.

Don't get me wrong - great northern are not normally more than 3-4 mins down. Nothing in terms of life but a lot if you need a 24tph timetable to work.

 

[shaun]

On one for the first time now, been on for 30 min and it's not uncomfortable! Expected worse, they're fine for a commuter train and much better than the 450s on SWT. Wouldn't choose one all the way to Brighton over a 2+2 seated part of a 377, but for commuting they do the job fine! The first class looks like a big improvement over a 387 at least.

 

[Hadders]

I agree I don't think the trains will be the issue, just very interested about how they get the timetable to work. Great northern can't manage 50% right time. If that happens in 2018 we have no chance. The Welwyn viaduct isn't going anywhere but watching the peak a WGC they need to increase the dwell if possible at Stevenage & WGC / Finsbury Park.

Currently if a service from Cambridge/ Peterborough is late out of Welwyn the the following stopper is held so it isn't followed. The delay to the stopper then cascades to the next fast as it struggles from Alexander palace.

Don't get me wrong - great northern are not normally more than 3-4 mins down. Nothing in terms of life but a lot if you need a 24tph timetable to work.

They'll just add 3-4 minutes padding to the timetable. In fact a minute's already been added over the last year or so between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park.

The 06/23/36/53 departures suddenly became 05/22/35/52 with no change in arrival times at Stevenage. Maybe GTR think we won't notice.....

On one for the first time now, been on for 30 min and it's not uncomfortable! Expected worse, they're fine for a commuter train and much better than the 450s on SWT. Wouldn't choose one all the way to Brighton over a 2+2 seated part of a 377, but for commuting they do the job fine! The first class looks like a big improvement over a 387 at least.

But what about people who use these trains to commute from Brighton, Bedford, Peterborough, Cambridge etc to London. Thousands do this every day!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is 018 a new delivery on test? Just saw it trundle through Norwood junction empty but with stickers on windows

It was out yesterday as well... here's a tweet I put out of it at East Croydon.

https://twitter.com/Peter_Mugridge/status/794323764364398598

( Original picture is too large for the forum at 2.5Mb and I haven't got time to shrink it right now )

 

[Class377/5]

Is 018 a new delivery on test? Just saw it trundle through Norwood junction empty but with stickers on windows

yes along with 015.

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree I don't think the trains will be the issue, just very interested about how they get the timetable to work. Great northern can't manage 50% right time. If that happens in 2018 we have no chance. The Welwyn viaduct isn't going anywhere but watching the peak a WGC they need to increase the dwell if possible at Stevenage & WGC / Finsbury Park.

Currently if a service from Cambridge/ Peterborough is late out of Welwyn the the following stopper is held so it isn't followed. The delay to the stopper then cascades to the next fast as it struggles from Alexander palace.

Don't get me wrong - great northern are not normally more than 3-4 mins down. Nothing in terms of life but a lot if you need a 24tph timetable to work.

Given that by the time the 2018 TT is in service, pretty much all services that stop south of Hitchin will be formed of 7xxs with wide doors (= much shorter dwells) and better acceleration, you can expect it to be much easier for trains to keep to right time and even recover minor delay.

As an example my 700 yesterday morning was nearly 3 minutes down leaving St Albans, but was only half a minute late leaving St Pancras, and that service only has 1 minute recovery time between those points.

 

[Domh245]

Given that by the time the 2018 TT is in service, pretty much all services that stop south of Hitchin will be formed of 7xxs with wide doors (= much shorter dwells) and better acceleration, you can expect it to be much easier for trains to keep to right time and even recover minor delay.

As an example my 700 yesterday morning was nearly 3 minutes down leaving St Albans, but was only half a minute late leaving St Pancras, and that service only has 1 minute recovery time between those points.

Surely the timetable is going to be recast to take advantage of the superior performance though? Why would you have a timetable where you have trains arriving early and standing for a long time when you could fit more trains in?

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course, whether they can all arrive at the core at the right time is another thing, and in my opinion the biggest challenge to actually having 24tph!!

Oh we'll be having 24tph. Not necessarily in the right order, I'll give you that sunshine!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely the timetable is going to be recast to take advantage of the superior performance though? Why would you have a timetable where you have trains arriving early and standing for a long time when you could fit more trains in?

a) because you can't fit more trains in for other reasons
b) because, as is demonstrated across the network, at peak times trains are struggling to meet dwell times and sectional running times because they are so much busier than they were when the timetable was last recast. The superior performance of the new trains is simply going to get us back to where we should be.

 

[westcoaster]

yes along with 015.

015 &021 have swapped places at cricklewood today.

 

[IKB]

Missing the stopping Mark on a 377 will stop the doors opening. Especially in the Core, just just the window for a 700 is smaller.

Is that just in the Core or applicable everywhere? I was under the impression that (on the regular network) the SDO on a 377 will open the specified number of doors for that station, even if you have inadvertently stopped at the wrong stop car mark.

 

[Class377/5]

Is that just in the Core or applicable everywhere? I was under the impression that (on the regular network) the SDO on a 377 will open the specified number of doors for that station, even if you have inadvertently stopped at the wrong stop car mark.

The 377 system of SDO uop to the 377/5 has station info. However from the 377/6 onwards it has correct door has correct door if enabled. The latter plus stations where platform lengths vary you need balise.

On the 700s, in the Core area it's all done via balise (because this is how the ATO works) where out at stations it's more GPS stations bar, again, stations with different platform lengths. One example of this is Balcombe where the Up is 12 cars and the Down is 8.

 

[westcoaster]

Missing the stopping Mark on a 377 will stop the doors opening.

Not true. The train does not even need to be in a station to open the doors, only needs to be in the general area.

 

[Class2ldn]

The only place generally we ever have issues with doors on 377s is st Pancras, its nothing like the 700s in terms of sdo, it's much more lenient and like above, it will release the doors as long as you are close enough for it to be picked up. If I go to to the 12 board on an 8 car it will still open the correct amount, something that won't necessarily happen on a 700. Definitely in the core.

 

[Class377/5]

Not true. The train does not even need to be in a station to open the doors, only needs to be in the general area.

So I was correct. Different is the stopping window on a 377 is much bigger than a 700.

 

[redbutton]

So I was correct. Different is the stopping window on a 377 is much bigger than a 700.

And a 377 only uses the PIBS beacons to determine how many doors to open and on which side. If you're within a certain radius of the station as determined by GPS, at least the minimum platform length at that station will open.

If there's no GPS lock, it prompts you to manually select which station you're at before the doors will release.

 

[Class377/5]

Class 700 update for everyone.

Deliveries to the UK so far...

Unit 1 - 700106 - 31/07/15
Unit 2 - 700107 - 30/09/15
Unit 3 - 700108 - 28/10/15
Unit 4 - 700110 - 16/12/15
Unit 5 - 700109 - 06/01/16
Unit 6 - 700111 - 20/01/16
Unit 7 - 700102 - 02/03/16
Unit 8 - 700002 - 09/03/16
Unit 9 - 700112 - 16/03/16
Unit 10 - 700103 - 23/03/16
Unit 11 - 700113 - 30/03/16
Unit 12 - 700114 - 20/04/16
Unit 13 - 700003 - 27/04/16
Unit 14 - 700004 - 04/05/16
Unit 15 - 700005 - 18/05/16
Unit 16 - 700104 - 01/06/16
Unit 17 - 700006 - 08/06/16
Unit 18 - 700007 - 29/06/16
Unit 19 - 700105 - 06/07/16
Unit 20 - 700010 - 13/07/16
Unit 21 - 700115 - 20/07/16
Unit 22 - 700008 - 27/07/16
Unit 23 - 700014 - 10/08/16
Unit 24 - 700101 - 17/08/16
Unit 25 - 700018 - 24/08/16
Unit 26 - 700015 - 29/08/16
Unit 27 - 700019 - 07/09/16
Unit 28 - 700016 - 14/09/16
Unit 29 - 700020 - 21/09/16
Unit 30 - 700021 - 28/09/16
Unit 31 - 700023 - 04/10/16
Unit 32 - 700027 - 02/11/16

Current list of 700s that have been in service. Note that today will be 700105 first day.

700/0
700002 - 06/10
700003 - 04/10
700005 - 26/10
700008 - 03/10
700014 - 25/10
700019 - 07/10

700/1
700101 - 01/11
700102 - 29/07
700103 - 30/08
700104 - 12/07
700105 - 06/11
700107 - 04/07
700108 - 20/06
700109 - 21/06
700110 - 02/08
700111 - 25/08
700112 - 20/07
700113 - 25/07
700114 - 04/07

EDIT: Just passed 700105 on its maiden trip as 2W14 07:36 Brighton to Bedford.

 

[DerekC]

So I was correct. Different is the stopping window on a 377 is much bigger than a 700.

I have a feeling we have been through this before on this thread. The 700's stopping window is designed around the eventual use of automatic door open (the doors open as soon as the train stops, as long as the train is in the right place). This is part of the ATO functionality.

 

[ComUtoR]

As an example my 700 yesterday morning was nearly 3 minutes down leaving St Albans, but was only half a minute late leaving St Pancras, and that service only has 1 minute recovery time between those points.

Timings through the core and into St Pancras are very generous. Even when I'm on a 319 you tend to get back to timetable at St Pancras. Even when I'm +5 late I can make time back between St Pancras and Blackfriars.

I tend to hit West Hampstead and then start pulling time back. Typically on my schedules I have a minute at St Pancras (hence typically leaving on time or pulling time back) I wouldn't specifically put this down to 700 performance.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Class 700 update for everyone.

Deliveries to the UK so far...

Unit 25 - 700018 - 24/08/16

Are these "unit numbers" different from the Siemens production numbers? Only... 700 018 has been running around on test with notices in the windows saying "zug 33".

i.e. "train 33".

 

[Domh245]

Are these "unit numbers" different from the Siemens production numbers? Only... 700 018 has been running around on test with notices in the windows saying "zug 33".

i.e. "train 33".

I guess that Siemens are numbering everything sequentially, so train 1 would have been 700101, train 2 was 700102 up to train 15 (700115) before switching to the 8 cars. Probably