Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Supercoss]

Don't think the Canal Tunnels have been commissioned yet?

Fully available in either direction and Bi-Bidirectionally signalled also for class 700 stock in non revenue use only at this stage with no planned passenger working until late 2018 (Dec Timetable) but watch out for a few planned tunnel evacuation exercises prior to this which will require volunteers (and lots of them) to validate emergency planning instrctions

 

[Class377/5]

The test team tell me that 700110 will be based at Hornsey E.M.U.D until around late March and will be running each night out and about on the GN.

700110 is also the 12 car ETCS test bed unit that been going to the Core for testing overnight. 700012-019 are also there at the depot.

Don't think the Canal Tunnels have been commissioned yet?

Commissioned last year. Several 700s have used them.

What was the reason the route from St Pancras to Finsbury Park isn't going to be used at first? Was it an engineering issue?

The Canal Tunnels aren't to be used until the 700s take over most of the routes that will use them. At present the only units allowed through are 319, 377 and 700s.

However driver training on them has started.

As for the gap around the 1st class door, the engineers responsible should hang their heads in shame. I know why it's there but a door where you can grab one edge to open it, but the equivalent top edge is a finger trap hazard that needs a warning sign? That's just poor design.

The door is there is section off First Class, however the way the train keeps you alive in the case of a major fire means it needs to keep the air flow going through all carriages to keep people alive.

So rather than poor design, its there to keep you alive by allowing fresh air into the air while the train is damaging itself.

 

[Class377/5]

Fully available in either direction and Bi-Bidirectionally signalled also for class 700 stock in non revenue use only at this stage with no planned passenger working until late 2018 (Dec Timetable) but watch out for a few planned tunnel evacuation exercises prior to this which will require volunteers (and lots of them) to validate emergency planning instrctions

First timetabled service for passengers is May 2018 when 4tph start running between Finsbury Park and St Pancras. The final 4tph comes in December 2018.

Idea is to slowly step up in service getting everyone used to the increase in tph in manageable steps.

 

[OFFDN]

700110 is also the 12 car ETCS test bed unit that been going to the Core for testing overnight. 700012-019 are also there at the depot.

Yes, I was told RLUs will also be out and about on the GN too on nights that 700110 isn't. 700110 will only be doing ETCS testing in the core at the weekend from now until April - weekday nights it's for GN.

 

[Roast Veg]

Thanks for the information.

watch out for a few planned tunnel evacuation exercises prior to this which will require volunteers (and lots of them) to validate emergency planning instrctions

I will keep my eyes peeled!

 

[cyclebytrain]

The door is there is section off First Class, however the way the train keeps you alive in the case of a major fire means it needs to keep the air flow going through all carriages to keep people alive.

So rather than poor design, its there to keep you alive by allowing fresh air into the air while the train is damaging itself.

I did say I know why it's there, but that doesn't stop it being a bad design. A good design would solve the ventilation issues without creating the finger trap hazard.

 

[387star]

The units are fitted with a dwell time counter

anyone know more about this?

 

[carriageline]

The units are fitted with a dwell time counter



anyone know more about this?

From what I understand, it's for the driver, and it can help even the service out and stop trains sitting in tunnels unnecessarily.

Plus, when integrated with TM, during major disruption it should realise that dwell times will be increased by extra passengers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The power sockets in the declassified 1st are nice, but there's an awful buzzing noise. If I didn't have my noise cancellers I would literally have to bail out and wait for the next train. Presumably (hopefully?) this is a fault? (2O49, the 1200 from Blackfriars in case anyone wants to check).

Are you sure its a problem with the power sockets or might you have misophonia?

 

[mrmatt]

Are you sure its a problem with the power sockets or might you have misophonia?

Not sure they were referring to the sockets buzzing but the first class area in general. I have noticed the buzzing in there and wondered what Kit was around causing it as I haven't heard it in any other part of the train and it is away from the pantographs.

 

[childwallblues]

I'm (finally) doing my first 700 journey and so far I don't find the seats comfortable (disappointing to me, because I find the 387 seats to be wonderful. These are definitely not the same).

The power sockets in the declassified 1st are nice, but there's an awful buzzing noise. If I didn't have my noise cancellers I would literally have to bail out and wait for the next train. Presumably (hopefully?) this is a fault? (2O49, the 1200 from Blackfriars in case anyone wants to check).

The white on blue LCD screens are great an easy to read. Personally, I think the accessible toilet arrangements aren't good for someone in a wheelchair, the gap to get past it is too small to get past comfortably in a wheelchair.

As for the gap around the 1st class door, the engineers responsible should hang their heads in shame. I know why it's there but a door where you can grab one edge to open it, but the equivalent top edge is a finger trap hazard that needs a warning sign? That's just poor design.

Still, the ride is pretty nice; so overall I'd say, 7 / 10 from me.

I rode my first 700s on Tuesday. I agree that the seats are not comfortable and would not like to do long journeys on them.

 

[Bedpan]

I rode my first 700s on Tuesday. I agree that the seats are not comfortable and would not like to do long journeys on them.

I'd say that they were the most uncomfortable trains I have ridden on apart perhaps from the 19th Century Metropolitan rake on the Bluebell. No tables, no armrests, hard narrow seats and a very austere interior. And a fellow traveller sitting opposite commented that she felt vulnerable as she preferred to have each carriage segregated by a door. I hate to think what will happen if/when there is an accident and people will be thrown the full length of the train.

I was going to Brighton and decided to get off and change at East Croydon so as to get some feeling back into my backside, and have the chance of completing the journey on a 377 or 387. It just shows the disdain shown by First Capital Connect, who I understand had a large say in the interior design.

So much for the improvements we were promised that Thameslink 2000 would bring, all those years ago. Now only 2 trains per hour to Brighton and they have extrended journey times due to stopping at all stations after Haywards Heath. In hindsight I'd happily go back to 319s.

 

[D365]

And a fellow traveller sitting opposite commented that she felt vulnerable as she preferred to have each carriage segregated by a door. I hate to think what will happen if/when there is an accident and people will be thrown the full length of the train.

Hold on, I thought that walk-through carriages were supposed to improve the perception of onboard safety... suburban units with full-width gangways have been in service on the continent for a number of years, so I can't see why it's any worse with the Class 700s.

 

[AM9]

... And a fellow traveller sitting opposite commented that she felt vulnerable as she preferred to have each carriage segregated by a door. I hate to think what will happen if/when there is an accident and people will be thrown the full length of the train. ...

Maybe you should consider the following:

What sort of a cataclysm have you in mind where a train will suffer such an acceleration at 100mph or less where passengers will be propelled directly along the axis of the train for over 200 metres?
Furthermore, what is the probability of such an event in any practical train design?
What chance would anybody have surviving such an event?​

 

[TheDavibob]

Hold on, I thought that walk-through carriages were supposed to improve the perception of onboard safety... suburban units with full-width gangways have been in service on the continent for a number of years, so I can't see why it's any worse with the Class 700s.

Yeah, I know (female) people who have commented on the vastly improved feeling of security from the open S-Stock, given that there's no chance of ending up in a situation with just you and one other person on a closed carriage.

 

[Deepgreen]

I did say I know why it's there, but that doesn't stop it being a bad design. A good design would solve the ventilation issues without creating the finger trap hazard.

Exactly - by, for example, having a similar gap at the top that would not trap hands!

 

[The Box Photter]

50 mins late tonight. 1W96 (700003) reduced to half-power and stood at Kentish Town for 10 mins whilst the driver gamely tried to rectify the problem. He was unable to solve the problem so we continued north at a much reduced speed.

The shenanigans were't appreciated by the massive number of standing passengers (1W96 is timetabled for a 12-car unit and we were 33% short).

On alighting I noticed the reason for the problem ... the rear pantograph was not raised. Could that have been the mysterious cause of the loss of 50% power? Can't the drivers see whether the pan is raised or not from the cab?

Ho hum, another delay repay claim. I'll soon have enough to pay for next year's season ticket.

 

[All Line Rover]

The declassification message in the rear first class compartment was not displayed when I travelled earlier today. Is the declassification policy still in force?

 

[jon0844]

I think GTR will need to make it very clear as and when the policy changes.

It does raise a good question though. How will it be conveyed to passengers? And will people have a just defence if they get caught without being made aware?

I'd say the trains will need notices - both ends - in printed form, or for the screens to say it is now in operation and not declassified, to make sure.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think GTR will need to make it very clear as and when the policy changes.

It does raise a good question though. How will it be conveyed to passengers? And will people have a just defence if they get caught without being made aware?

I'd say the trains will need notices - both ends - in printed form, or for the screens to say it is now in operation and not declassified, to make sure.

They could just do similar to the roads I am afraid. My mother got caught twice in one week speeding on the same road at 40mph. The road had only just had its limit reduced from 40mph to 30mph. One could tell because the signs advising a driver that they could drive at 40mph had been removed !. She found out when the letters arrived through the post - if she had done a few more trips close together she would have been banned.

They have got to make money somehow [/cynicism}..

 

[jon0844]

We've had a few roads adjusted near me. 60 to 40 and 40 to 30. Plus our road still has 20 one way and 30 the other, and apparently had no traffic order to impose the 20 limit but they still put up the signs. Bet they could still prosecute and have people pay and accept points, oblivious to the fact it's not enforceable.

I'd hope GTR do things the right way, but then I look at the 387s on GN and realised they won't.

 

[Bungle965]

The declassification message in the rear first class compartment was not displayed when I travelled earlier today. Is the declassification policy still in force?

Certainly was when I used it on Saturday, it did say on the PIS screens that standard class ticket could use the space, however it did take a while to get though the rotation for it to actually show that screen.
Sam

 

[jopsuk]

They could just do similar to the roads I am afraid. My mother got caught twice in one week speeding on the same road at 40mph. The road had only just had its limit reduced from 40mph to 30mph. One could tell because the signs advising a driver that they could drive at 40mph had been removed !. She found out when the letters arrived through the post - if she had done a few more trips close together she would have been banned.

They have got to make money somehow [/cynicism}..

(A little off topic, yes, but still) If a street is lined with street lights the speed limit in the UK is 30mph unless there are signs marking a higher or lower speed limit. 30mph repeater signs are not legally permitted in street lit areas.

 

[W230]

On alighting I noticed the reason for the problem ... the rear pantograph was not raised. Could that have been the mysterious cause of the loss of 50% power? Can't the drivers see whether the pan is raised or not from the cab?

Most likely yes. Class 700's effectively run as two 6 cars (or 4 cars) bolted together. So if the rear pan was down then no traction power to the rear 4 coaches. I'm surprised it was really slow though - we've been told they can be run on one set of motors. Certainly driving a 319 under half power, while very sluggish it is still doable. I wonder if restrictions were placed on the 700 if there had been an ADD operation or similar. Local instructions forbid a VCB/pan being down in the core so maybe you got lucky with it happening at Kentish Town!

I've just had a look in my traction manual to see if there is any more information but it's a bit sparse pn that topic.

 

[jon0844]

(A little off topic, yes, but still) If a street is lined with street lights the speed limit in the UK is 30mph unless there are signs marking a higher or lower speed limit. 30mph repeater signs are not legally permitted in street lit areas.

I thought that rule had been relaxed and some councils were putting up small 30mph 'repeater' signs in built up areas.

It's a valid complaint though. You have a street with a 40mph limit for many, many years. Then the signs simply go and it's automatically 30 because of the street light spacing. It's not surprising some people are going to be caught out.

Of course you need to look for signs, but come on - that's a bit sneaky. At the very least put up some signs to say 'new speed limit'. I mean, for one, you want people to slow down - so you'd surely do everything to make sure people KNOW the speed limit has changed downwards!

But, once again to get back on topic, GTR still can't put up sufficient signs in first class on the 387s (or the 321s, although that doesn't matter now) so perhaps they'll send a Tweet at 2am on a Sunday morning to tell people first class is now back in effect and that will be that.

 

[Deepgreen]

Most likely yes. Class 700's effectively run as two 6 cars (or 4 cars) bolted together. So if the rear pan was down then no traction power to the rear 4 coaches. I'm surprised it was really slow though - we've been told they can be run on one set of motors. Certainly driving a 319 under half power, while very sluggish it is still doable. I wonder if restrictions were placed on the 700 if there had been an ADD operation or similar. Local instructions forbid a VCB/pan being down in the core so maybe you got lucky with it happening at Kentish Town!

I've just had a look in my traction manual to see if there is any more information but it's a bit sparse pn that topic.

A 700/1 (12car) has 6600hp in normal circumstances. That gives 3300hp on half power - easily adequate for normal speed operation; the same as a 12 car REP+TC+TC formation, which were hardly sluggish.

 

[Deepgreen]

Certainly was when I used it on Saturday, it did say on the PIS screens that standard class ticket could use the space, however it did take a while to get though the rotation for it to actually show that screen.
Sam

The first class de-classification on the 700s is bizarre and typically badly handled. The message only scrolls around every few minutes, and only shows in the area to which it applies, and so is only going to benefit those who board there and just happen to see the message before they walk through to the standard class area. What would be sensible would be for the information about the de-classification to be shown in standard class so people can move to the first class section.

 

[spark001uk]

The first class de-classification on the 700s is bizarre and typically badly handled. The message only scrolls around every few minutes, and only shows in the area to which it applies, and so is only going to benefit those who board there and just happen to see the message before they walk through to the standard class area. What would be sensible would be for the information about the de-classification to be shown in standard class so people can move to the first class section.

I've seen plenty of rif-raf in the 1st at both ends on the 700s (and other stock and other TOCs for that matter) who clearly aren't 1st passengers, saw a group the other day in 1st on a southern 377.
Thing is I rarely see RPIs doing a sweep on Southern DOO, and I don't think I've ever seen one on TL. So they're just going to keep doing it I guess, or even worse not have a ticket at all.

On your side note, yes the REPs were a beast, they weren't normally allowed to run with no TCs, but I remember once or twice in the 80s coming up from BMH on one solo due to stock shortage. That certainly shifted some!

 

[Deepgreen]

I've seen plenty of rif-raf in the 1st at both ends on the 700s (and other stock and other TOCs for that matter) who clearly aren't 1st passengers, saw a group the other day in 1st on a southern 377.
Thing is I rarely see RPIs doing a sweep on Southern DOO, and I don't think I've ever seen one on TL. So they're just going to keep doing it I guess, or even worse not have a ticket at all.

On your side note, yes the REPs were a beast, they weren't normally allowed to run with no TCs, but I remember once or twice in the 80s coming up from BMH on one solo due to stock shortage. That certainly shifted some!

First class checking on Southern and TL are a thing of the past. My train yesterday was a 377 from Victoria and had a group of 'non-firsts' in first - I know because they stood for a while before deciding to sit. The
(SE) guard sat in the back cab between every stop and made his way to a door to operate at stations. Not a single check in first as he passed through although it should have been clear that all was not right with the occupants' ticket validity.

I have never witnessed any ticket checks on any TL trains in all the years I have used them. Overall, the risk of penalty is so minute these days that people have given up worrying about the chance.

 

[Class377/5]

First class checking on Southern and TL are a thing of the past. My train yesterday was a 377 from Victoria and had a group of 'non-firsts' in first - I know because they stood for a while before deciding to sit. The
(SE) guard sat in the back cab between every stop and made his way to a door to operate at stations. Not a single check in first as he passed through although it should have been clear that all was not right with the occupants' ticket validity.

I have never witnessed any ticket checks on any TL trains in all the years I have used them. Overall, the risk of penalty is so minute these days that people have given up worrying about the chance.

I've had a ticket check every time I ridden a Thameslink unit lately apart from getting the 05.44 on early turn. And my trips have been at various hours and not aligned with revenue staff start times either.