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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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tsr

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Between the parallel lines
Many people seem to have an utterly unrealistic view of what 'control' can actually do during a disruption. So much depends on where the resources, trains and crews, happen to find themselves, and when. We're talking about a few people with a few telephones dealing with hundreds of people all wanting to know what's happening to *them*. All the while hundreds of people continue to pour into the network leading to crowding at places like Farringdon with its narrow platforms. Dream on if you really think disruption will be cleared by magic at the drop of a hat, it's simply not like that, even on a simple railway.

I'm not saying it will solve everything, by any means, but GTR have been restructuring certain aspects of Control so that there is special focus on just the points you mention - there are dedicated roles which only involve managing the interaction of the Core stations (and selected other major ones, such as Victoria) with the wider remit of the train operator's Control and similar functions from the likes of NR. In the last few weeks the rollout of a new command structure has begun in earnest, though that's actually not quite as impressive in my eyes (time will tell if my hunch is right).

Control also do have access to more than just "a few telephones" now, and whilst there are still awkward occasions where you just cannot get through to them, they seem to be able to act a bit more quickly on what you're telling them. I've had to arrange a few fairly interesting things recently which were very much out of the ordinary, which would have been met with the telephone equivalent of a blank face only 6 months ago, but which can now be communicated and acted on relatively well.

NR still have a bit to do to catch up, as their incident control process has positives and negatives which are in an unfortunate position of stark opposition - a lot of the time they broadcast reams of data without actually being able to cope with the overriding operational procedures which the crew on the ground know should be happening. As and when that is done, hopefully both TOC and NR Controls will be in a better position to help.

What continues to worry me are three things: the continued instability which is almost culturally embedded in the mainline operations south of the Core, including in morale and therefore willingness to think laterally to solve problems; new things cropping up with the 700s which shouldn't be happening at all, such as the DOO camera failures of recent days; and the sheer complexity of the route map, which will not always be understood well by the people under the most pressure and having to communicate to customers on the ground (few people will understand their Rainhams as well as their Littlehamptons!).

For example, suppose the staff at Station X on the south BML are disgruntled and less enthusiastic about trying to help the passenger flows at a station. A northbound train becomes 3 minutes late, loses a path, becomes 5, 10, 15 or 20 late. By this time it is having to skip stops and the stop order is urgently issued by someone in the ROC. Unknown to them, a driver from somewhere in darkest Kent needs to travel "pass" to one of the stations which has just been omitted. A train is therefore left in an awkward place. This causes a ripple effect and the driver feels under pressure to reduce dwell times. His train then gets a route like the one at Blackfriars the other day - not to the wrong place, per se, but to an impractical one, perhaps caused by an unfamiliar 9xxx headcode. Said route is taken and a Brighton service goes via Elephant & Castle. Passengers pull egresses at Tulse Hill. It's a 700 and the brakes then don't release when the situation is dealt with...

How does this work when half the railway in the South-East of England is trying to squeeze through Farringdon? It's anyone's guess, and I'll quite possibly be caught in the crossfire. Do wish us all luck.
 
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ComUtoR

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What continues to worry me are three things: the continued instability which is almost culturally embedded in the mainline operations south of the Core, including in morale and therefore willingness to think laterally to solve problems;

I have found that is less of a morale and unwillingness. I have certainly discovered, the hard way, on many occasions that we just aren't allowed to think for ourselves. Pick up phone, speak to control, do as told. I feel we have a culture of do as your told and no deviation from the preset plans.


new things cropping up with the 700s which shouldn't be happening at all,

Yep and 'control' still not being able to figure it out either. I had a door issue a couple of weeks ago and called fleet. They had no idea how to resolve it. Lots of shouting in the background over the phone and then they gave up and left me to it. :/ Things breaking i understand but things that really shouldn't be happening wind me up.
 

bramling

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Enjoying all this legendary German reliability.

The entertaining thing is how certain individuals on here and elsewhere intimated how the introduction of these particular trains would be so different and better than anything seen before. Reality is clearly different. Other fleets have entered service without all these issues. Time is running out - 2018 is fast approaching. When will reality dawn?
 

jon0844

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I am quietly confident the 700s will be fine, just as I'd be the first to admit the latest stuff coming out of Derby seems quite reliable. I hope about the buttons, but they've even fixed those a long time ago.

I think the rail infrastructure and passenger behaviour will cause the biggest problems, and there are safety issues to think of.

I've already seen issues with trying to regulate passenger flows at St Pancras low level due to overcrowding (during disruption), and the design of the entrance means you can't really control it. You hold people back then invite people in as and when, but can't really stop those who will just go through even if they are waiting for another train.

And when people are let in at the entrance, many will run in some sort of panic.

Farringdon would be another nightmare.
 

bramling

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I am quietly confident the 700s will be fine, just as I'd be the first to admit the latest stuff coming out of Derby seems quite reliable. I hope about the buttons, but they've even fixed those a long time ago.

I think the rail infrastructure and passenger behaviour will cause the biggest problems, and there are safety issues to think of.

I've already seen issues with trying to regulate passenger flows at St Pancras low level due to overcrowding (during disruption), and the design of the entrance means you can't really control it. You hold people back then invite people in as and when, but can't really stop those who will just go through even if they are waiting for another train.

And when people are let in at the entrance, many will run in some sort of panic.

Farringdon would be another nightmare.

The 700s will (probably) be ok eventually no doubt, although time will tell if they live up to the particularly superior reliability standards that they will need. As things are at present they are definitely not fine however, this is bad enough for existing users, but the clock is ticking away, and 2018 will very soon be here. There's definitely no room for complacency from both GTR and Siemens - trains become reliable through hard work, not just through time and the bathtub curve.

As to the points about infrastructure, fully agree with all this. Passenger behaviour in particular will play a big part. My local station sees people turn up 20 minutes early for peak London trains, not because this means the difference between getting a seat or not, but in order for people to secure a decent seat of their choice. Many of the proposed services will be half hourly, and the journey times involved appear - based on how people behave today - to make it worthwhile for people to wish to be first on the train. Others will expect to be first on the train simply because of the good old-fashioned British custom of queueing. Again at my local station one would think someone had commuted mass murder based on what happens if a train stops slightly adrift of the normal spot and the last people to arrive get to board first. These behaviours are not going to cease just because the logo changes from Great Northern to Thameslink.
 

Agent_Squash

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Compared to the 345 introduction which was delayed so the units would be as reliable as possible, the 700 introduction does seem a bit rushed. This obviously lead to many unforeseen technical issues that would probably have been ironed out if they had been kept in testing a bit longer.

Desiro Classic as a platform was always more simple than the equivalent Electrostar, and with Desiro City it appears they are catching up. Derby have had ASDO on units since at least the 377s, whereas even the last batch of 350s were still fitted with UDS. As a result, these 'teething issues' are to be expected when a lot of new technology is being introduced, and warranted an extended testing period.

But it is GTR. And common sense doesn't really fit in with the 'everything must be done at once' mantra they have.
 
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bahnause

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Control also do have access to more than just "a few telephones" now, and whilst there are still awkward occasions where you just cannot get through to them, they seem to be able to act a bit more quickly on what you're telling them. I've had to arrange a few fairly interesting things recently which were very much out of the ordinary, which would have been met with the telephone equivalent of a blank face only 6 months ago, but which can now be communicated and acted on relatively well.
Sound a bilt like our RCS-ALEA / RCS-DISPO:
https://www.sbbrcs.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/bilder/broschuere/Broschuere_ALEA_EN_Web.pdf
https://www.sbbrcs.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/bilder/broschuere/Broschuere_DISPO_EN_Web.pdf
 

EMD

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We live in a world now (and I'm talking about more than just the railways) where project managers believe their own hype, senior managers/directors don't know enough about their current vocation to know if what they are being sold I'd workable or not, before they themselves move on.

We employ consultants to fill the knowledge vacuum and then have to employ more to ensure as to have a second opinion, as there is no knowledge within industries to cross check anymore. Lower and middle managers are no longer employed having to know what the department or industry they work in as actually about, just as long as they can sort of manage people and have some basic accounting & budget skills that will do. Then they move on up within or go outside to the next available higher paid job as quick as you can, which promotes a merry go round of basically untrained mangers in what every industry we work in.

Sounds like you've been on those projects too eh?

This video is a good illustration of what you wrote above and how the class 700 tender/design/build process (and perhaps the whole TL project too although it predates modern project management developments) could have looked like.

https://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg
 
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Bald Rick

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Compared to the 345 introduction which was delayed so the units would be as reliable as possible, the 700 introduction does seem a bit rushed. This obviously lead to many unforeseen technical issues that would probably have been ironed out if they had been kept in testing a bit longer.

The 345 introduction is making the 700s look like world beaters. Like the 378s and 172s in their first few months, it's almost a case of measuring delay incidents per mile rather than the other way round.
 

theageofthetra

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The 345 introduction is making the 700s look like world beaters. Like the 378s and 172s in their first few months, it's almost a case of measuring delay incidents per mile rather than the other way round.

Classic British motor industry attitude where the customer is quality control. How did that work out?
 

Triumph

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Are there any more 319/377s going out of service this weekend?
Should be 319002/009/220/446 going from Cricklewood to Hornsey on Sunday for onward's to Long Marston on Monday & Tuesday next week. 002/009 & 220/446
The last 319's on TL will be on Friday 25th August.
 

hwl

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The 345 introduction is making the 700s look like world beaters. Like the 378s and 172s in their first few months, it's almost a case of measuring delay incidents per mile rather than the other way round.

But they are only running one 345 unit in service on extra off peak services. That seems like a very sensible form of testing so that issues are found and resolved on the other units before they enter service and cause performance issues in the peaks.
 

AM9

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But they are only running one 345 unit in service on extra off peak services. That seems like a very sensible form of testing so that issues are found and resolved on the other units before they enter service and cause performance issues in the peaks.

Then compare the failures per train mile which is he only way to measure actual reliability.
 

387star

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Still a few 700 with the old logo

I wish the livery would be redesigned

ThamesLink is an iconic route and with the expansion too..

I think a blue based livery would make sense

On a grey day a 12 car 700 looks so drab!
 
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Should be 319002/009/220/446 going from Cricklewood to Hornsey on Sunday for onward's to Long Marston on Monday & Tuesday next week. 002/009 & 220/446
The last 319's on TL will be on Friday 25th August.

Thankyou Triumph. Do you know what day the last 377s will be?
 
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Still a few 700 with the old logo

I wish the livery would be redesigned

ThamesLink is an iconic route and with the expansion too..

I think a blue based livery would make sense

On a grey day a 12 car 700 looks so drab!

I completely agree. I don't think the current livery could be any more boring if they tried. I wish they are continued with the old FCC livery but obviously with new Thameslink branding. Something like this:IMG_1128.jpg
 

Bald Rick

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But they are only running one 345 unit in service on extra off peak services. That seems like a very sensible form of testing so that issues are found and resolved on the other units before they enter service and cause performance issues in the peaks.

Well yes, but, the reliability figures I've been told about also include the mileage accumulation runs, and it's not pretty. I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that more than one diagram should have been in service by now, even compared to the revised schedule.


Anyway, back to 700s. I hear on the grapevine from somebody who spoke to somebody who knows that the first 700 with seat back tables has arrived.
 

JaJaWa

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Anyway, back to 700s. I hear on the grapevine from somebody who spoke to somebody who knows that the first 700 with seat back tables has arrived.

How is the Thameslink timetable going to cope!!! :lol:
 

bramling

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How is the Thameslink timetable going to cope!!! :lol:

And how are the gloaters (*) on here who thought it wouldn't happen for years going to cope?

Still, it means when things go up the wall next year, as is inevitable, Thameslink Programme can blame it all on those who wanted the tables. I can just hear it now - "If only we hadn't been pressured into fitting tables, our crazy timetable would have worked just fine!".

(* The ones who extol the wonders of the class 700s, but make a bee-line for the declassified section when *they* use one - they know who they are)!
 
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387star

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Tables great news and wifi soon.. that's all they need to be a great train

Fgw 158s had tables missing for several years too
 

physics34

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Still a few 700 with the old logo

I wish the livery would be redesigned

ThamesLink is an iconic route and with the expansion too..

I think a blue based livery would make sense

On a grey day a 12 car 700 looks so drab!

there seems to be no one in the hierarchy that has any idea on liveries, seat comfort, interior design etc.... its bizarre really. Nothing is good enough really.
 

jon0844

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Still, it means when things go up the wall next year, as is inevitable, Thameslink Programme can blame it all on those who wanted the tables. I can just hear it now - "If only we hadn't been pressured into fitting tables, our crazy timetable would have worked just fine!".!

You read my mind! And it has to be said like the end of a Scooby Doo episode.
 

physics34

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Well yes, but, the reliability figures I've been told about also include the mileage accumulation runs, and it's not pretty. I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that more than one diagram should have been in service by now, even compared to the revised schedule.


Anyway, back to 700s. I hear on the grapevine from somebody who spoke to somebody who knows that the first 700 with seat back tables has arrived.

hope the bay seats have also got a small table of some kind
 

Marklund

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I don't think you will find many who want it to fail as too many of us (including myself) need it to work to get to and from work. But there are not many who believe this Thameslink experiment is actually going to work day in day out.

In less than 18months your going to have trained all the GTR TL, SN & GN pus SE drivers to such a high standard that inline failures of class 700s won't have a huge knock on effect on train service. Not to mention getting these class 700 cattle trucks working reliably as well.

At great expense we have tha most modern 2 1/2 miles of state of the art signalling and about 4miles of totally rebuilt railway controlled from a state of the art signalling centre, being fed by 70mile radial approach routes from the four corners of the old NSE land that are relying on 1970s/80s signalling and technology. As much I hate to say this, this has Virgin's "operation princess" written all over it.

The ECML Keeps having wires down effecting that part of the world, the MML seams to be the suicide capital of the world when it's not being effected by either signalling or overhead wire problems and the BML can't run reliably now. There is nothing in the great December 2018tt change that is going to improve those facts.

But as this is a class 700 thread, I have no doubt in the end that they will prove to be a near totally reliable train, I'm just not sure when that will be.

We live in a world now (and I'm talking about more than just the railways) where project managers believe their own hype, senior managers/directors don't know enough about their current vocation to know if what they are being sold I'd workable or not, before they themselves move on.

We employ consultants to fill the knowledge vacuum and then have to employ more to ensure as to have a second opinion, as there is no knowledge within industries to cross check anymore. Lower and middle managers are no longer employed having to know what the department or industry they work in as actually about, just as long as they can sort of manage people and have some basic accounting & budget skills that will do. Then they move on up within or go outside to the next available higher paid job as quick as you can, which promotes a merry go round of basically untrained mangers in what every industry we work in.

Sir/Madam

I wholly agree with your sentiments here. Do you have a newsletter that I can subscribe to? :lol:
 
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