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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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jon0844

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It would be difficult to have alternate trains on the BML with different rear first rules.

Indeed, but it might be a time when Thameslink decides to drop the declassification. It wouldn't be enough to just rely on looking at the onboard screens though, and there would have to be a long amnesty period.

I expect they'll not change things though. It means more space for Great Northern users, and it could be good for PR to keep it going.
 
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ComUtoR

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ITo be honest, I don't think anything short of SDO FLUs, or using a more aggressive skip-stop pattern to prevent services from becoming over-crowded will improve the AM commuting experience. E.g. Stop the first service at Beckenham Hill, Catford, Nunhead, and then the service behind it can call at Ravensbourne, Bellingham, Crofton Park, with both of them calling at Peckham Rye and/or Denmark Hill.

We already do that too. :/
 

bramling

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Indeed, but it might be a time when Thameslink decides to drop the declassification. It wouldn't be enough to just rely on looking at the onboard screens though, and there would have to be a long amnesty period.

I expect they'll not change things though. It means more space for Great Northern users, and it could be good for PR to keep it going.

Could be a double-edged sword though. I really can't see it being well received that one can sit in exactly the same accommodation at the other end of the train without paying extra. Especially if large numbers of people in the know make a bee-line for it.

There's certainly an over-provision of first on the 8-cars - seems to be another example of poor specification on these highly undesirable trains.
 

jon0844

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Could be a double-edged sword though. I really can't see it being well received that one can sit in exactly the same accommodation at the other end of the train without paying extra. Especially if large numbers of people in the know make a bee-line for it.

There's certainly an over-provision of first on the 8-cars - seems to be another example of poor specification on these highly undesirable trains.

I wonder how TL users took to the news early on about the rear being declassified, and indeed the fact that for some time they weren't doing ticket checks and so the front was effectively declassified too.

I wonder if more people on GN pay for first class, and would therefore be somewhat more upset?
 

EMD

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I was on a 365 last night (2330 or so at WGC) and it was pretty clean. Sadly the people on the train, most half asleep, nearly all had their feet up on the seats. Can't win 'em all!

I wonder, when has it become acceptable to keep feet... or rather wipe your soles clean on the seats? So many do it I must have missed a memo or something?
 

bramling

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I wonder how TL users took to the news early on about the rear being declassified, and indeed the fact that for some time they weren't doing ticket checks and so the front was effectively declassified too.

I wonder if more people on GN pay for first class, and would therefore be somewhat more upset?

I'd say first is still pretty empty on most of GN, even during the peaks. The exception is perhaps the fast Cambridge and Kings Lynn services, which are of course now largely 387s.

Furthermore, I'd say a lot of first class users are various on or off duty railway staff or those travelling on various forms of rail staff pass.
 

AM9

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It's only Kentish town, cricklewood which has short platforms. Mill hill Broadway, Elstree, Radlett have been extended on the slows. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'm assuming that the stopping trains will all be RLU's (round the loop) and the semi-fasts will be FLU's (Which skip the short platform stations). So in normal service, SDO won't be used too often unless in disruption?

But I was postulating that to provide more capacity in the core, the Sutton Loop trains could be turned at Blackfriars, allowing them to be replaced with FLUs probably running down the BML. That would mean that the slow services may need to be run with FLUs by design.
 

Bald Rick

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I'd say first is still pretty empty on most of GN, even during the peaks. The exception is perhaps the fast Cambridge and Kings Lynn services, which are of course now largely 387s.

Furthermore, I'd say a lot of first class users are various on or off duty railway staff or those travelling on various forms of rail staff pass.

Same as on the MML. I'd say the number of people with paid for first class tickets on each peak train to / from Bedford is in low single figures. It's a bit silly really, it should be standard throughout, or first class should have a "TL Only" fare and a lower premium price. However, ORCATS rules...
 

AM9

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It's only Kentish town, cricklewood which has short platforms. Mill hill Broadway, Elstree, Radlett have been extended on the slows. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'm assuming that the stopping trains will all be RLU's (round the loop) and the semi-fasts will be FLU's (Which skip the short platform stations). So in normal service, SDO won't be used too often unless in disruption?

But I was postulating that to provide more capacity in the core, the Sutton Loop trains could be turned at Blackfriars, allowing them to be replaced with FLUs probably running down the BML. That would mean that the slow services may need to be run with FLUs by design.
Ididn't know that Mill Hill had 240m platforms but I was aware of Elstree and Radlett, hence I didn't include them for SDO.
 

westcoaster

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I'm a regular traveller of BMS to BFR in the AM and PM peaks and always try to grab the fast services that originated from Sole Street, Ramsgate, Dover or Ashford, etc. - That's one more bum that can find a seat on the 0818 BMS starter. But if one of the fast ones get cancelled, I end up taking that 0818 and finding a nice comfy spot in the back.

From my experience, the train "feels" full as soon as Bellingham, and this is for a train that started from Bromley South. It skips Nunhead, sure, but I do still see a number of people fail to board at Denmark Hill.

To be honest, I don't think anything short of SDO FLUs, or using a more aggressive skip-stop pattern to prevent services from becoming over-crowded will improve the AM commuting experience. E.g. Stop the first service at Beckenham Hill, Catford, Nunhead, and then the service behind it can call at Ravensbourne, Bellingham, Crofton Park, with both of them calling at Peckham Rye and/or Denmark Hill.

But what do I know? For all I know, this could make the service even worse. But it's a suggestion.

I drive the 0818 regular, it's one busy train that's for sure. The busiest stop is Catford by a country mile. The platform is usually full the whole length 6 to 8 deep, honestly running FLU's is not the answer. I think a more even all stops pattern would help.
 

swt_passenger

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I saw my first Thameslink Class 700 heading south from Peterborough Station at around 13:20 today. I missed the leading 700 but saw 700019 on the rear.

It would be extremely unusual or unlikely to catch more than one 700 running in multiple, are you sure it wasn't just a normal 8 car?
 
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Silver Cobra

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I saw my first Thameslink Class 700 heading south from Peterborough Station at around 13:20 today. I missed the leading 700 but saw 700019 on the rear.

Now you mention it I think you are right. :oops: It didn't look more than a normal 8 car...

I saw 700019 heading north through Arlesey at around 09:00 this morning. I can confirm it definitely was just a single 8-car set.
 
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ijmad

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I took a Thameslink train earlier this week and I was sure the door vestibule I was standing in had the Open/Close buttons reversed (Open on the bottom). It's possible I was imagining it (very jetlagged at the time), but if not, I'm assuming it was an error, not an intentional change!
 

lev441

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But I was postulating that to provide more capacity in the core, the Sutton Loop trains could be turned at Blackfriars, allowing them to be replaced with FLUs probably running down the BML. That would mean that the slow services may need to be run with FLUs by design.
Ididn't know that Mill Hill had 240m platforms but I was aware of Elstree and Radlett, hence I didn't include them for SDO.

Mill Hill actually has all 4 platforms full length - Think it was the first one they did before realising by only doing the slow platforms at some of the other stations it would reduce their costs significantly!
 

jon0844

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I took a Thameslink train earlier this week and I was sure the door vestibule I was standing in had the Open/Close buttons reversed (Open on the bottom). It's possible I was imagining it (very jetlagged at the time), but if not, I'm assuming it was an error, not an intentional change!

Open has to be accessible (close is less important, if important at all), but on some trains where the door buttons are a lot lower I know that open can be back at the top.

I am not sure why it would be changed though, and if it was part way through the build then it would be very confusing for all!
 

AM9

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Mill Hill actually has all 4 platforms full length - Think it was the first one they did before realising by only doing the slow platforms at some of the other stations it would reduce their costs significantly!

So it's look like increasing some (or all) of the 700/0s to 12-car and using SDO where necessary is a viable option to deal with passenger traffic increases above current capacity. If the 700 contract has options for up to another 240 vehicles to do this it would be a fair bit of foresight by the DfT.
Of course platform extensions and associated track, OLE and signalling changes don't come cheap but against heavy duty engineering to provide additional paths through the core it carry a lower technical risk and much lower costs/disruption to services.
 

AlexNL

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I am not sure why it would be changed though, and if it was part way through the build then it would be very confusing for all!

If they are inversed, I'm curious if it's only the label on the button or if the logic of the entire module is upside down. Maybe someone took the wrong buttons from the parts box when the thing was assembled?
 

GodAtum

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I'd say first is still pretty empty on most of GN, even during the peaks. The exception is perhaps the fast Cambridge and Kings Lynn services, which are of course now largely 387s.

Furthermore, I'd say a lot of first class users are various on or off duty railway staff or those travelling on various forms of rail staff pass.

I struggle to get a 1st class seat from East Croydon, I wish they would provide more seating or kick standard class people out.
 

sarahj

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Saw my first one with tables on a run from Croydon down to Brighton. Small things they were. Could do with a little table on the group of 4. Still not keen on them, seat was rock solid, vent where my foot should go, and screaming baby 3 coaches down and no escape from the noise. As I tell folks, they are designed to get people on and off in 40 seconds in the central core station and cram as many folks in. They are not built to take folks from Brighton to Bedford, or Peterbrough, or even London, in comfort.

I guess the crossrail units will be the same. Great for central core, but to commute from Reading or Maidenhead, hahahahahaha
 

jon0844

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Saw my first one with tables on a run from Croydon down to Brighton. Small things they were. Could do with a little table on the group of 4. Still not keen on them, seat was rock solid, vent where my foot should go, and screaming baby 3 coaches down and no escape from the noise. As I tell folks, they are designed to get people on and off in 40 seconds in the central core station and cram as many folks in. They are not built to take folks from Brighton to Bedford, or Peterbrough, or even London, in comfort.

I guess the crossrail units will be the same. Great for central core, but to commute from Reading or Maidenhead, hahahahahaha
The 345 I tried was fine from Liverpool Street to Stratford. I got off so can't speak for longer journeys!!
 

AM9

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I struggle to get a 1st class seat from East Croydon, I wish they would provide more seating or kick standard class people out.

If you are talking about East Croydon northbound, that's a journey within the zones and the trend there is to provide for standard class only.
Maybe they will reinstate the rear 1sts when there are sufficient first class ticket receipts but there's no spare capacity on the route to carry empty seats in the peaks which are extended by including a lot of leisure and airport traffic.
 

EMD

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I took a Thameslink train earlier this week and I was sure the door vestibule I was standing in had the Open/Close buttons reversed (Open on the bottom). It's possible I was imagining it (very jetlagged at the time), but if not, I'm assuming it was an error, not an intentional change!

I'm pretty sure that TL reversed their door switches layout a couple years back. It took me a while to get used to it.
 

ijmad

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I'm pretty sure that TL reversed their door switches layout a couple years back. It took me a while to get used to it.

I just thought it was the other way up to the rest of the 700s I'd been in (which are quite a lot of them since I commute from the Catford Loop). I could be wrong.
 

Julia

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I *thought* I saw a 700 in Hornsey last Tuesday evening with Great Northern logos on rather than Thameslink. Was I right - and if so, are there going to be two separate cl700 fleets, in theory at least?
 
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