THAMESLINK services to Kent and Sussex routes 2018

[Ianno87]

Wonder how much it'll cost to go from Brighton to Cambridge...

Well, at weekends one can currently get a Super Off Peak Day return for a bargain £17.95 (with railcard)

 

[Sunset route]

I don't think the extension would any narrower than the section of platform already in place (and no narrower than many provided out of Waterloo for the ten car programme). However, although there is no pointwork in the way, the proximity of the previous ('home') signal may be an issue. That was why I wondered what the distances involved are. A frustrating situation at such a crucial spot!

From signal T108 on platform 4 to the fouling point across T1608 points is 40m and the standard overlap is 183m, so your looking at having to run over the down slow line in the up direction as far as T1600 points and putting in a scissor crossover in to regain the up slow line to the detriment of the down slow traffic.

As the overlap on signal T99 is currently 212m beyond the signal you would need to hold down trains back at either T89 on the Down London Bridge Slow line or T75 on Down Victoria Slow Line both of which can't hold a 12 car train without fouling the junction in rear.

Just to allow parallel arrival in platform 4 while departing platform 5 in the up direction.

 

[infobleep]

But 6tph to Gatwick at which almost all services to the coast should call.

But in the peaks don't, unless that is going to change.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[whoosh]

Interestingly the Horsham trains will run fast from Redhill to Purley, then East Croydon and London Bridge and the Three Bridges will call at Merstham, Coulsdon South, Purley, East Croydon, Norwood Junction and London Bridge. They both mean Purley keeps fast trains to London and extremely annoys all Redhill passengers as fastest train to London will be 34 minutes (previously 27!)

Out of interest, where have you seen information about these stopping patterns?
I was under the impression (perhaps from a London Reconnections article?) that the Peterborough to Horsham trains would be the ones calling at Norwood Junction (and maybe New Cross Gate?).

 

[Gerard92]

Don't know if this has been answered but will London Bridge become 24hr for the overnight Bedford - Three Bridges service

 

[RichardN]

When I get the slides it will be clearer but the Caterham via Tulse Hill train will call at most stations. As far as I could see there was a split between fast and slow along the Norwood route. It looked like 8 trains per hour as well but then they started talking about splitting so not sure how that worked.

This is welcome as some people travel East Croydon to Tulse and Herne Hills and without a service like this the journey would be very awkward...

 

[Class455]

South London Metro will also be changed. Trains from Caterham and Tattenham corner will all go to London Bridge (all 377/6 or 7 10 coach splitting at Purley - no 455's). Additionally there will be Caterham Trains via Tulse Hill to London Bridge

They put up a map but I couldn't write it all down. All subject to DfT permission but very likely to happen

Will this mean the 455's will never go back to Caterham/Tattenham Corner after 2018? The 377/6's are mainly found around Sutton. If this happens, what services will the 455's work?

Also, if this is to happen, Platform extensions must take place at Kenley, Whyteleafe and Whyteleafe South as these platforms can only fit 6 car trains at the most.

It would be really sad if all Caterham/Tattenham Corner services become entirely 377 operated. They've been around since I was born.
Also, I read in a Today's Railways issue when GTR won the franchise that there would be a Thameslink service from Welwyn GC to Caterham. Is this still going ahead?

 

[Class 466]

Will this mean the 455's will never go back to Caterham/Tattenham Corner after 2018? The 377/6's are mainly found around Sutton. If this happens, what services will the 455's work?

Also, if this is to happen, Platform extensions must take place at Kenley, Whyteleafe and Whyteleafe South as these platforms can only fit 6 car trains at the most.

It would be really sad if all Caterham/Tattenham Corner services become entirely 377 operated. They've been around since I was born.
Also, I read in a Today's Railways issue when GTR won the franchise that there would be a Thameslink service from Welwyn GC to Caterham. Is this still going ahead?

377s have SDO so a short platform isn't an issue at all...

 

[Deepgreen]

From signal T108 on platform 4 to the fouling point across T1608 points is 40m and the standard overlap is 183m, so your looking at having to run over the down slow line in the up direction as far as T1600 points and putting in a scissor crossover in to regain the up slow line to the detriment of the down slow traffic.

As the overlap on signal T99 is currently 212m beyond the signal you would need to hold down trains back at either T89 on the Down London Bridge Slow line or T75 on Down Victoria Slow Line both of which can't hold a 12 car train without fouling the junction in rear.

Just to allow parallel arrival in platform 4 while departing platform 5 in the up direction.

I don't doubt your statements, but the problem regularly causes significant delay, with further knock-on effects. If it really cannot possibly be surmounted, then places like East Croydon will forever be the needless bottlenecks that they are.

 

[Sunset route]

I don't doubt your statements, but the problem regularly causes significant delay, with further knock-on effects. If it really cannot possibly be surmounted, then places like East Croydon will forever be the needless bottlenecks that they are.

Thank you for not doubting my statement, I was using our signalling control diagrams for East Croydon interlocking

The solution as ever is time and money and lots it at that too!

 

[cyclebytrain]

This latest change hasn't reinstated the plans for services to Guildford has it?

 

[Phil.]

Agreed - it's just galling to have the junction used so little in future, notwithstanding the delays that it certainly can entail. South Croydon onwards to p4 is a disaster - maybe something could be done about the starting signals at p4 and p5 so that a train could enter p4 when one is leaving p5 to cross in front of it (some form of approach/speed control?).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Generally agree, but to be fair, it's not the through Peterborough traffic (?) that is being catered for, but the intermediate journeys. By the way, the new Redhill platform is to be a single-sided one, rather than an island.

Sorry, I meant island as in isolated rather than a two face island and I did mention that Peterborough - wherever will really cater for intermediate passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The service from Redhill to Gatwick will remain 2 all stations trains (Peterborough to Horsham) and 2 fast trains (Bedford to Gatwick).

Interestingly the Horsham trains will run fast from Redhill to Purley, then East Croydon and London Bridge and the Three Bridges will call at Merstham, Coulsdon South, Purley, East Croydon, Norwood Junction and London Bridge. They both mean Purley keeps fast trains to London and extremely annoys all Redhill passengers as fastest train to London will be 34 minutes (previously 27!)

Who from Southern told Redhill passengers that Brighton trains will reappear?

Historically someone or some group from Redhill must have really annoyed the train planners. I cannot think of one town that is expanding and being developed like Redhill where year on year the train service is getting worse in terms of capacity and journey time.

 

[swt_passenger]

This latest change hasn't reinstated the plans for services to Guildford has it?

Was that ever likely?

Guildford was binned off Thameslink years ago, it was one of those odd things that they never updated the service maps on various web sites for a good few years after.

But as it isn't in the listed service pattern in post #20 then I'd say it was a 100% no...

 

[Minstral25]

Out of interest, where have you seen information about these stopping patterns?
I was under the impression (perhaps from a London Reconnections article?) that the Peterborough to Horsham trains would be the ones calling at Norwood Junction (and maybe New Cross Gate?).

It was announced by GTR at our local Rail Users AGM in April. It makes sense as Horsham to Earlswood passengers get faster trains to London Bridge.

It was an update in plans at that time. Plans are still changing I believe, even from the stakeholders meeting I heard about.

New Cross Gate has never been in the plans but should be

 

[Bald Rick]

I must admit I am very confused as they still list Cambridge stoppers going through the core.

The only solution that could be done in the time scale is SDO with the front for coaches staying shut so avoid fowling the crossing but would this extend time in station?

Revers for trains from Cambridge

Platform extensions to 8 car on down platforms for Foxton / Shepreth, SDO on the up. Small extension at Meldreth, and the level crossing that's in the way will be closed; SDO both ways.

Planned completion next year if all necessary parties agree.

 

[FOH]

New Cross Gate has never been in the plans but should be

New Cross Gate has had 700 stopping markers fitted unlike the other metro stations so I presume it is planned to stop.

 

[Deepgreen]

New Cross Gate has had 700 stopping markers fitted unlike the other metro stations so I presume it is planned to stop.

Or possibly only as emergency provision, given that the other Metro stations have no fast line platforms until Norwood Junction.

 

[petersi]

Planned completion next year if all necessary parties agree.

That's good

 

[telstarbox]

I think the big news is the 4tph Catford Loop. Very low housing density for an area close to central London ripe for 'improvement' the only problem being the land owned by Lord Cator estate who for many years prevented Sunday services on the Mid Kent. TFL have a 4tph min service requirement too?

The housing density is increasing though - see Catford Green for example and there are plans for further development in Catford.

 

[swt_passenger]

Or possibly only as emergency provision, given that the other Metro stations have no fast line platforms until Norwood Junction.

Of course IF this proposal to divert 4 tph onto the Kent lines takes place there'll be more room in a 10 tph than a 14 tph timetable to have a few trains stopping at New Cross Gate, if they choose to do so.

 

[BRX]

No good news for the Wimbledon Loop then?

 

[swt_passenger]

No good news for the Wimbledon Loop then?

What were you hoping for? Many people were surprised when the loop stayed with Thameslink in the first place...

 

[hwl]

Of course IF this proposal to divert 4 tph onto the Kent lines takes place there'll be more room in a 10 tph than a 14 tph timetable to have a few trains stopping at New Cross Gate, if they choose to do so.

Probably just more fasts running into the terminating platforms instead...

 

[FOH]

Or possibly only as emergency provision, given that the other Metro stations have no fast line platforms until Norwood Junction.

They are fitted on the Metro platforms too at NXG

 

[Gerard92]

But then connections would be lost at New Cross Gate as a good number of passengers do switch from ELL to the Horsham services

 

[backontrack]

Apologies for pedantry, but the title should really have 'fewer', not 'less'.

 

[MikePJ]

Platform extensions to 8 car on down platforms for Foxton / Shepreth, SDO on the up. Small extension at Meldreth, and the level crossing that's in the way will be closed; SDO both ways.

Planned completion next year if all necessary parties agree.

Good to hear, although I'd hope that some money could be found from another pot to make all three stations 8-car in both directions.

 

[sarahj]

Will this mean the 455's will never go back to Caterham/Tattenham Corner after 2018? The 377/6's are mainly found around Sutton. If this happens, what services will the 455's work?

Also, if this is to happen, Platform extensions must take place at Kenley, Whyteleafe and Whyteleafe South as these platforms can only fit 6 car trains at the most.

It would be really sad if all Caterham/Tattenham Corner services become entirely 377 operated. They've been around since I was born.
Also, I read in a Today's Railways issue when GTR won the franchise that there would be a Thameslink service from Welwyn GC to Caterham. Is this still going ahead?

There are bizarre rumors flying round that some 455's might be coming down for coastway work. Nothing confirmed, just messroom chatter.

 

[southern442]

What were you hoping for? Many people were surprised when the loop stayed with Thameslink in the first place...

The Wimbledon loop is becoming the new Catford loop. It's very neglected and only 2tph for what could be a very useful link. It would be great if the Wimbledon loop got an extra 2tph somehow (not exactly sure where from though, Victoria maybe?).

 

[hwl]

The Wimbledon loop is becoming the new Catford loop. It's very neglected and only 2tph for what could be a very useful link. It would be great if the Wimbledon loop got an extra 2tph somehow (not exactly sure where from though, Victoria maybe?).

The proposal is Wimbledon via Tulse Hill to Blackfriars bays but not operated by Thameslink replacing the Wimbledon - LBG service...