The 2019 General Election - Campaign Debate and Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by KashmireHawker, 29 Oct 2019.

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  1. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    Didn't think Boris could stoop much lower but he's managed today. Even his sidekick Laura K from the impartial national broadcaster has been tweeting lies from CCHQ as facts.

    How anyone can vote for this shower is beyond me.
     
  2. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    For a very long time the UK has proceeded down the road of closer relationship with Europe and for too long the people weren’t asked what they thought about it.

    It is quite simple - if you have a referendum and say you will implement what the people decide, you need to do just that I’m afraid. The consequences of yet again ignoring what people think - the common wisdom of the common man if you will - for technocracy and an insistence the political classes know better, are dire.

    It would be far more damaging to the country to fail to implement Brexit than to go ahead and do it.

    You are highlighting some flaws with democracy in that the masses might not always be right, but that isn’t a reason not to implement a referendum vote.
     
  3. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    I know, but September 2001 still marked a drastic change in Blair’s functioning as a PM. Had 9/11 not happened then it would be interesting to see how the Blair years turned out.
     
  4. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    One campaign (the campaign that won) was convicted and paid a fine for electoral fraud. That alone should be grounds for scrapping the referendum and doing it against.

    The last three years have been about trying to implement the vote. Parliament has reflected the conflicting views of the people by not supporting anything except being against a no-deal and seeking 'alternative arrangements' to the Irish Backstop. The first time a deal got voted in for a proper reading, the government threw a hissy fit when parliament didn't want to rush the legislation through. While this is portrayed as 'remainer MPs trying to sabotage the will of the people', we can see many leaver MPs voting against it too. If people who campaigned on the same platform can't walk through the same voting lobby as each other (see Michael Gove and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson), how can one maintain the 'leave means leave' position?

    This election is supposed to be the Prime Minister getting a majority and thus mandate to implement their Brexit plan (yet again). A direct referendum on the subject is a far better way of actually working out what the public thinks than this proxy which has 1001 other issues in the mix too.
     
  5. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    What do you think will happen to us if Brexit doesn’t go ahead?
     
  6. NoMorePacers

    NoMorePacers Member

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    Nothing.
     
  7. GRALISTAIR

    GRALISTAIR Established Member

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    Very true. I remember a month earlier that Mexico had visited and George Bush said words to the effect Mexico are our closest friend and ally. It was almost like Tony Blair took it personally and went out of his way to prove that UK was USA best friend. Sept 11th 2011 immediately Blair said "we stand shoulder to shoulder" In January 2002 of course, Blair got invited to the State of The Union address and Bush said before all congress and the world televised "the USA could have no finer friend than Tony Blair and The UK".
     
  8. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    Political chaos (like now).

    In contrast, I see leaving as producing political and economic chaos.

    The referendum in 2016 royally screwed the country. There is no way that it will be recovered from in the short/medium term. Simply, whatever happens, things will not be great politically. But, just because remaining will be difficult (if a 2nd referendum gives remain the win) doesn't mean leaving won't be worse.

    To repeat:
    The Leave Campaign has been convicted of electoral fraud and has paid a fine for said offence. Why [not on a technical level] does this not invalidate the result of the referendum?

    (And all the other points I made that haven't yet been responded to.)
     
    Last edited: 9 Dec 2019
  9. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    The UK has proceeded down loads of roads over the last 40 years without asking the people in a referendum. Privatised quite a few industries. Banned smoking in workplaces. Introduced the minimum wage. Restricted trades union powers. All of those have a huge effect on many people's lives. What makes the relationship with Europe so different that that uniquely justifies a referendum?

    Even aside from the controversies over various lies etc., that logic only really works if the referendum offered a choice between two well-defined and easily implementable actions. It didn't. The referendum offered a choice between one choice (leave things as they are) and another choice that was almost completely undefined. As I've said before, it was a bit like having a vote on 'should we move house, or stay in our current house?' without giving any idea of where we'd move to if we did move. In that situation, if it takes the Government 3 years to work out a place to move to and in many ways that place looks a lot less favourable than the options that were being speculated on at the time of the vote, then I think most reasonable people would say that it would be daft not to hold an additional vote to check whether people really did want to move to this new place.

    To some extent I agree with you that damage has been done to democracy. But that damage was done in 2016 by holding a referendum on something that was so vague as to be virtually undeliverable in any form that would satisfy most people who voted for it, accompanied by an equally undeliverable promise by the Government.

    To my mind, it's time to accept that the damage has already been done by holding that flawed referendum, and do what we can to minimise that damage. And it seems to me the least bad way to do that is to hold another referendum that is properly framed with two clear and well defined choices.
     
  10. Senex

    Senex Established Member

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    It ought to invalidate it under any half-fair system. But who is there in this country to enforce action against politicians and political groups who lie and defraud? Just some of the many problems arising from the lack of a formal written constitution and a constitutional court to act as its guardian. The whole business of the referendum capmpaign and the years following has shewn what depths our politicians (and their special advisers) can sink to!
     
  11. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    If it was a binding vote, it would invalidate the result under our rules. However, the referendum is technically non-binding, thus the electoral fraud can be ignored.

    I should clarify the word 'why' in my original post.
     
  12. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    If it's stopped without a referendum then a lot of people will be angry and the likes of Farage will capitalize on that. If it's stopped by being voted down in a referendum then quite a lot of people will still be angry and the likes of Farage will still capitalize, but generally speaking people are more willing to accept the result of a democratic vote based on a fair campaign.
     
  13. coradiafan2000

    coradiafan2000 Member

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    All this talk about a second referendum, and that we should honour the results of the first one because that's democracy...

    Forgive me if this is an incredibly naive viewpoint, but isn't a second referendum the most democratic thing we could do? I can understand the argument against it, but it's been over three years since the referendum, and we've found that it wasn't exactly honest. Things have changed a lot.

    I'll admit I'm very biased towards this, I'm still bitter about not being able to vote in the previous referendum because I was too young. I'd actually be able to have a say this time.
     
  14. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    Yes. Labour has many problems. Firstly, Mr Corbyn comes across as weak and indecisive. Worse, Labour is dominated by Militant Mark 2 and some far-left TU leaders. The lessons of history - as with Michael Foot & Militant Mark 1 is that they will always attract some support - but they are extremely unlikely ever to get enough votes to win UK general elections.

    Moreover, some of them seem to think that a "moderate left" Labour government is a bad idea. Much as some of them hate Mr Blair, they conveniently forget that he, and Mr Brown, got us 13 years of "Non-Tory" government - and that sort of situation is the best chance of UK ever getting another Labour government. I am afraid that the present Labour party is just about the best way of helping Batty Boris & co. to rule UK for he next 10 - 20 years.

    (I would add that, in some ways, parts of my views might be even further left than Mr Corbyn - but I am realistic enough to recognise that such views do not win elections. You need to compromise, and aim for a little of what you want - otherwise you will get zilch, and near-permanent Tory rule.)
     
  15. thejuggler

    thejuggler Member

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    Journos repeating CCHQ lies, what a surprise. CCHQ tell principle journo "Mrs K" that Hancock's aide has been 'punched' in Leeds. Taxis called to get "hundreds of activists" to the hospital.

    BBC had a journalist there and saw what happened, i.e. none of what she said. Mrs K was so quick to get the tweet out before she knew any facts all her whatsapp group (Peston et al) had repeated the lie and any retraction is too late.
     
  16. JamesT

    JamesT Member

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    Because merely committing an electoral offence is not enough to invalidate an election. Parties are routinely fined for spending offences at elections.

    From https://www.electoralcommission.org.../pdf_file/Challenging-elections-in-the-UK.pdf
    Ignoring that the normal election rules didn’t apply to the referendum, nobody has been able to show that any of these offences had a material effect on the result. We’re not talking about ballot papers being forged or anything of that level. One of the Leave campaigns spent a little more than they should have, but overall Remain still spent more.

    Do you think that a few ads on Facebook, even stunningly well targeted ones persuaded hundreds of thousands to switch their votes?
     
  17. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    Absolutely nothing. Everything will settle down and everyone will get on with life.
     
  18. kermit

    kermit Member

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    Mark Francois will, however, probably finally pop.
     
  19. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    Pages 65-66:
    Slough Borough Council (Central ward) - A by election for a council seat was called because the winner was found to have broken electoral law. If electoral law is found to have been broken, a by-election for that seat is called.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/7302809.stm
    http://law.slough.info/law41/law41.php

    Where in the 93 page document are referring to?

    I have stated that I'm aware of what happens in a referendum and why such laws don't apply. It is technically non-binding. Another example of things being technically fine, although morally wrong.


    Quite possibly.

    This also entirely misses the point. The user (@AlterEgo ) I was responding to was citing 'democracy' as reasons for upholding the Brexit vote. Violating electoral law is not 'democracy'. Thus, arguing that we should just uphold the referendum because 'democracy' is fundamentally undermined.

    And we haven't even got to Russian interference. Why is a pro-Brexit government supressing a report when they have "nothing to hide"?
     
  20. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    To anyone who is still trying to pursude me to vote for them or their local party candidate, you now out of luck, as I've already voted via a postal vote.

    To ensure it arrived I went in directly to the council offices to stick it in the box. I definitely want my vote to count this election.

    I wonder how many others are in the same position and have already voted?

    In terms of the campaign, I think the Conservatives won't spend enough. They are ignoring issues like social care. You wonder if they care about local government too.

    As for Boris. I've not been impressed with him. Yes
    he can make people laugh but personally I don't want a comedian running the country.

    I guess I'll be able to watch even more excellent Rory Bremner impressions of Boris on Twitter but even that though wouldn't be enough for me to want him to be PM.

    Personally I think one outcome I might just be able to accept would be for Boris to lose his seat and the Conservatives win. I know of one person voting Conservative because they think Boris is funny. I'd rather they voted Monster Raving Loony Party than Conservative. There is a candidate in their consistuancy.

    Ultimately I'd rather Conservatives didn't win with an overall majority

    Then there is Labour. I think their plans will cost too much. I also don't like Corbyn. I do reckon there has been antisemitism. I also believe there has been isamaphpbia in the Conservative party.

    I'm a Roman Catholic myself and we aren't even allowed to become prime minister! So much for UK democracy I guess.

    My vote went to Liberal Democrats in the end. The IFS said their Manifesto was the best costed one. Not that I'd read up the manifestos in details but I did follow stuff on the news and watch a local hustings on YouTube before voting.
     
  21. coradiafan2000

    coradiafan2000 Member

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    Well I'll be able to get a good night's sleep. I've got enough anxiety about the future as it is.
     
  22. JamesT

    JamesT Member

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    My quote was from page 8 of the electoral commission document.
    It’s effectively repeated in the Burden and Standard of proof section of the court decision you link to.
    In the court case, the margin of victory was 120 votes, doubt was cast upon 229 postal votes which is more than enough to have overturned the result. Therefore the election was declared void.

    Whereas all three main parties broke the law on election spending in the 2015 General Election, should we have rerun that as well?
    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-fined-20000-for-undeclared-election-spending

    You claimed earlier that if the result was binding then it would have been invalidated. My contention is that the rules of a binding election require a standard of proof that there has been tampering such that it renders the result unsafe.
    This far there is no evidence of successful interference in the referendum result. Therefore no reason to believe it would have been invalidated.

    Democracy is trusting in the will of the electorate. Absent evidence to the contrary, the result of a free and fair election should stand. In the case of a referendum, the expectation would be that the result would be implemented. Whereas the impression is certainly that many politicians have spent the last three years trying to frustrate that.
    Suppressing the report does look bad, but I suspect if it truly had a smoking gun in it then it would have been leaked by now.
     
  23. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    Well, the relationship with Europe - and the submission to a supranational assembly - requires people to consent to an idea that there is a higher democratic plane than the nation state, which is something many people simply don't believe in. It's a constitutional question about how me make decisions and run our house, unlike any of the other examples. Nobody thinks the Belfast Agreement referenda were a bad exercise, because they dealt with a fundamental question.

    Even so, the timing and reasoning of the referendum were very flawed; Cameron called it merely for political expediency to solve a problem within his own party.

    A second referendum wouldn't be undemocratic but I also don't think it would solve our problems - problems that existed before the referendum.

    That's a refreshingly hopeful take in such a dismal thread!
     
  24. coradiafan2000

    coradiafan2000 Member

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    A world where we don't have to worry about Brexit sounds like bliss.
     
  25. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    If we are so divided, let's just divide us up.

    Ireland was divided up years ago into North and the Republic. How about we do something similar in the UK. Those who wish to remain in Europe get part of the country and those who wish to leave get another part.

    We could have Southern and Southern England England together as remain and Wales and Northern England.as leave.

    I don't think Boris would be keen though. He'd have less power. What would Corbyn think though?
     
  26. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    There's always stuff to worry about.
     
  27. coradiafan2000

    coradiafan2000 Member

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    I know, but it'd be one less thing to worry about.
     
  28. coradiafan2000

    coradiafan2000 Member

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    Would people really want that? I certainly wouldn't, being a Welsh remainer. Politics will always divide people, but I don't think anything has divided opinion like Brexit, at least not in my lifetime. I'm just tired of it all I guess.
     
  29. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member Associate Staff Events Co-ordinator

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    I think this analysis is completely divorced from the facts about the structure and consequences of the referendum, as others have explained. It's also very odd to claim that something which has a mountain of evidence behind it as a bad idea is better than the alternative of not doing that very bad thing, for unstated and unexplained reasons.
     
  30. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Probably not but did the majority of people want Ireland to be separated up? I'll hold my hand up and say I don't know the history of it, despite being half Irish (Republic side). I've only visited Ireland on holiday though. Never lived there and do feel very English. Not sure how European I feel but I didn't want Brexit, so I must have some allegiances to the EU. I do have German Jewish heritage in me though.
     
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