The 'hijacking' of St Pancras by HS1 and the resultant long walk from Euston Road

[w1bbl3]

If the original deck had remained intact then there would have been only two or possibly three MML platforms going all the way to the original buffer stops. How annoying would it be if you arrived there and unexpectedly found your train was leaving from a tacked-on extra platform outside the shed, or indeed stacked in one of the very long three platforms ten coaches from the barrier?

IIRC the original plan would have extended only one MML platform all the way back. Quite a lot of space was lost due to the security requirements for E* and the need without converting the undercroft to provide a wide enough thoroughfare at platform level to the extension.

Personally it always surprises me that travelators where not installed to link the underground and MML sections better as the current arrangement really does feel like the MML, thameslink & HS1 domestic station may as well be a separate station from E* and underground.

 

[yorksrob]

IIRC the original plan would have extended only one MML platform all the way back. Quite a lot of space was lost due to the security requirements for E* and the need without converting the undercroft to provide a wide enough thoroughfare at platform level to the extension.

Personally it always surprises me that travelators where not installed to link the underground and MML sections better as the current arrangement really does feel like the MML, thameslink & HS1 domestic station may as well be a separate station from E* and underground.

I've said this before, but I think it's poor that the walkway from the upper concourse to the SE platforms is blocked off.

 

[joshy.fre_2003]

I've said this before, but I think it's poor that the walkway from the upper concourse to the SE platforms is blocked off.

I completely agree - would save a trip down, round, and back up. Becomes especially annoying if the shopping arcade area is wedged too

 

[yorksrob]

I completely agree - would save a trip down, round, and back up. Becomes especially annoying if the shopping arcade area is wedged too

Indeed

(Although I must admit, I prefer to go from Victoria or Charing Cross anyway !)

 

[joshy.fre_2003]

Indeed

(Although I must admit, I prefer to go from Victoria or Charing Cross anyway !)

The minimal time saving that HS1 gives on the service towards Faversham is not worth the more expensive ticket for me, and I also prefer using a far more comfy 375 from Victoria.

 

[yorksrob]

The minimal time saving that HS1 gives on the service towards Faversham is not worth the more expensive ticket for me, and I also prefer using a far more comfy 375 from Victoria.

That's true.

I also like the 375's for a journey with a table seat !

I must admit though, the time saving is less/non existant to Ashford !

 

[PG]

It is superbly ironic that as long distance train services have gone increasingly to “turn up and go”, the ticketing for said services has gone the other way, to increasingly “booked train only”.

Indeed, very true. Unless you've a good few hundred £££ burning a hole in your pocket for an unrestricted ticket then it's irrelevant (service frequency) as you're only able to catch one specific train.

 

[paul1609]

That's true.

I also like the 375's for a journey with a table seat !

I must admit though, the time saving is less/non existant to Ashford !

It's the old real journey argument (that comes up so many times in South of England to Scotland flying) If your travelling from Ashford to Westminster there s no real time saving on HS1. Taking an extreme example if your travelling at a convient time for one of the SWR through services from Waterloo to Bath or Bristol there's only about 10 mins advantage from Ashford and most of East Kent in going via HS1 and GWR.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

Indeed, very true. Unless you've a good few hundred £££ burning a hole in your pocket for an unrestricted ticket then it's irrelevant (service frequency) as you're only able to catch one specific train.

Specific-train tickets are a gift to the station-as-shopping-centre brigade, but a real burden to anyone wanting to design a station around the interests of the passenger.

For St Pancras (as at many other city stations), the only passengers with a predictable journey to the station are those who are walking there. For anyone arriving by road or tube, you need to plan for a substantial wait at St Pancras to avoid the risk that a delay in reaching the station costs your the horrible financial penalty for missing the train indicated on your specific-train ticket. Some may be happy whiling away the odd 30-45 minutes drinking ambitiously-priced refreshments, but as a busy-but-cash-strapped passenger, I resent the needlessly extended journey time and the discomfort of spending that wasted time in a building that makes no provision for my needs.

To properly cater for the leave-a-big-safety-margin passengers would need substantial (comfortable-temperature) seating accommodation. The old St Pancras had quite a lot of seating, although the bulk of this provided no protection against the cold. On the opening of the new St Pancras, the MML section had just five public seats for waiting passengers. A few more now, but a pitifully small provision given the self-inflicted demand that has been created by ticketing policy.

It's a while since I have been through St Pancras, but the sight of waiting passengers sat on the floor at a flagship railway station is to me an iconic emblem of profit-before-people Britain.

 

[yorksrob]

It's the old real journey argument (that comes up so many times in South of England to Scotland flying) If your travelling from Ashford to Westminster there s no real time saving on HS1. Taking an extreme example if your travelling at a convient time for one of the SWR through services from Waterloo to Bath or Bristol there's only about 10 mins advantage from Ashford and most of East Kent in going via HS1 and GWR.

Indeed.

And that's with the current, fairly poor timings on the South Eastern main line.

 

[Hadders]

HS1 isn't just about the journey time. How much extra capacity was added. It's not uncommon (pre-covid) to see 12 car trains on HS1 full and standing. Where would these passengers be accommodated if HS1 hadn't been built?

 

[yorksrob]

If HS1 trains are/were full and standing, it makes sense to use the classic infrastructure to relieve the strain.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

My memories of St Pancras in the 70s is what a dismal, dark, filthy place it was. The current ambience more than makes up for the longer walk to the Underground and Euston Road.

One manifestation of what Peter Parker described as "the crumbling edge of quality" and repeatedly warned politicians about.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed, very true. Unless you've a good few hundred £££ burning a hole in your pocket for an unrestricted ticket then it's irrelevant (service frequency) as you're only able to catch one specific train.

I don’t know where this myth about having to book for a certain train because ‘unrestricted’ tickets cost a few hundred quid comes from. Sure, an anytime return on some long distance flows is going to cost that, but there are plenty of passengers who will be happy to buy off peak and super off peak tickets that are unrestricted within certain times, eg all weekend.

 

[norbitonflyer]

They should all be essentially smoke free really apart from Marylebone.

Waterloo still has the Salisbury/Exeter services, and London Bridge has diesel services to Uckfield

 

[yorksrob]

I don’t know where this myth about having to book for a certain train because ‘unrestricted’ tickets cost a few hundred quid comes from. Sure, an anytime return on some long distance flows is going to cost that, but there are plenty of passengers who will be happy to buy off peak and super off peak tickets that are unrestricted within certain times, eg all weekend.

If you're doing a trip between London and a Northern provincial town, walk-on travel is non-existant. One can only obtain a reasonable fare by booking in advance.

The exception is LNWR services to Crewe/Liverpool, however we haven't been afforded that freedom in Yorkshire.

 

[Ianno87]

If HS1 trains are/were full and standing, it makes sense to use the classic infrastructure to relieve the strain.

No it doesn't. Because most passengers want to get to / travel via St Pancras as that works out better for them and are happy to pay the slight premium for it. That's why those trains are full and classic ones aren't.

I've done Ashford-Milton Keynes in 90 minutes exactly via HS1 (which doesn't need a premium fare) and a well timed connection walking from St Pancras to Euston. No real passenger is going to have a slow soujourn via Charing Cross as an alternative.

 

[yorksrob]

No it doesn't. Because most passengers want to get to / travel via St Pancras as that works out better for them and are happy to pay the slight premium for it. That's why those trains are full and classic ones aren't.

I've done Ashford-Milton Keynes in 90 minutes exactly via HS1 (which doesn't need a premium fare) and a well timed connection walking from St Pancras to Euston. No real passenger is going to have a slow soujourn via Charing Cross as an alternative.

That assumes that everyone wants to travel onwards from KX/St Pancras/Euston, which thay don't.

People in Kent don't travel on HS1 because they have a burning desire to go to the Euston Road. They do so because it is quick.

Anyhow, this is getting off topic. I liked the old St Pancras and I like the current one.

 

[Ianno87]

People in Kent don't travel on HS1 because they have a burning desire to go to the Euston Road. They do so because it is quick.

Exactly, so slow services don't help. People want fast ones.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly, so slow services don't help. People want fast ones.

But there's no reason why classic services have to be slow. Even now, the benefit of HS1 to places in the West End and connections to the West can be marginal. Express timings on some classic services would only make this more so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Specific-train tickets are a gift to the station-as-shopping-centre brigade, but a real burden to anyone wanting to design a station around the interests of the passenger.

I'm not sure I'd see it as so absolute. Shopping facilities are quite useful at stations. If for instance you live in a rural backwater (as many commuters do) a small supermarket at the London terminal is quite useful to pick something up for tea and a bottle of wine on the way home. Other services like barbers can also be handy (I used to use the barber at Euston by the bogs and thought it a shame when it turned into yet another "convenience store").

Clothes shops rather less so I suppose.

It's a while since I have been through St Pancras, but the sight of waiting passengers sat on the floor at a flagship railway station is to me an iconic emblem of profit-before-people Britain.

Yes, that's an issue.

But there's no reason why classic services have to be slow. Even now, the benefit of HS1 to places in the West End and connections to the West can be marginal. Express timings on some classic services would only make this more so.

Well, it depends on your business case for your high speed line. For HS2 it is to allow a more frequent and more reliable local service on the lines that are relieved by it (that's basically the whole point of HS2). For HS1...or was that just "because we can" and perhaps shouldn't have been done at all?

 

[Hadders]

But there's no reason why classic services have to be slow. Even now, the benefit of HS1 to places in the West End and connections to the West can be marginal. Express timings on some classic services would only make this more so.

It is if you want to increase the number of calls (and therefore capacity) at stations on the classic line. I'm not sure exactly what happened with HS1 but with HS2 we consistently tell everyone that the main reason for building it is so that we can introduce more calls at places like Watford, Leighton Buzzard, Milton Keynes, Nuneaton etc. I'm sure it'll have been a similar concept with HS1.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure I'd see it as so absolute. Shopping facilities are quite useful at stations. If for instance you live in a rural backwater (as many commuters do) a small supermarket at the London terminal is quite useful to pick something up for tea and a bottle of wine on the way home. Other services like barbers can also be handy (I used to use the barber at Euston by the bogs and thought it a shame when it turned into yet another "convenience store").

Clothes shops rather less so I suppose.



Yes, that's an issue.



Well, it depends on your business case for your high speed line. For HS2 it is to allow a more frequent and more reliable local service on the lines that are relieved by it (that's basically the whole point of HS2). For HS1...or was that just "because we can" and perhaps shouldn't have been done at all?

Domestic services on HS1 have their benefit - there's no reason not to have them as the infrastructure is there anyway (for international travel), and there will be journies for which St Pancras is better located.

The mistake was in deliberately slowing down classic services to try to force people to cough up the premium.

I agree wholeheartedly on the benefits of being able to pick something up at the station on the way home.

 

[raetiamann]

There should be a lot less fumes when the class 360s and 810s are in service. Even any HSTs will be gone soon so like some other London terminals, St Pancras will be smoke free.

Which is exactly how it should be. Meanwhile Leicester, Derby, Nottm and Sheffield can have diesel fumes from both London and regional services, which is not as it should be.

 

[adamedwards]

I hope that the new rebuilt Euston will have an entrance opposite Brill Place, so lining up with a direct walking route to the concourse through St Pancras to Kings Cross. This is my preferred route when traveling in to KX and out of Euston. Had the plan not been cancelled, there would now be a tram on that road heading into central London. Brill Place would then be ripe for redevelopment.

 

[jopsuk]

without the investment from the HS1 project, it's likely that St Pancras would still not have had much, if any, refurbishment from its BR days, what with the MML being a low priority route

 

[Mikey C]

I actually find getting to the domestic platforms at STP pretty easy, especially the Southeastern Ones, as I always arrive there on the Northern Line and use the back exit from the platforms leading to the Western Ticket Hall where a wide passageway takes you directly underneath the Southeastern platforms. A slightly longer walk to the MML or Thameslink platforms, but you're at the right end of the station for the "normal" shops, toilets and Wetherspoons, rather than the poncey shops aimed at Eurostar passengers elsewhere in the station

 

[Purple Orange]

Unless one disagrees that HS1 should have a home at St. Pancras (or even exist at all), I don’t see the ‘hijacking’ issue. The current platform location seems fine to me, with far better facilities to boot.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you're doing a trip between London and a Northern provincial town, walk-on travel is non-existant. One can only obtain a reasonable fare by booking in advance.

A slight exaggeration, I feel. You can buy walk up off peak return tickets from London to pretty much any ‘Northern provincial town”, as you know. They definitely exist and a lot of people use them. They will be more expensive than most advance fares, but offer the flexibility. And, importantly, they are regulated so will be priced broadly the same now, in real terms, that they have been for the last 25 years.

I’d say less than £100 for a return to Preston on a flexible ticket like that is reasonable - and very reasonable with a railcard. Certainly much better value than the alternatives, and certainly not ‘ non-existent’

 

[Hadders]

The walk up off peak return from London to 'Northern Provincial towns' is generally a regulated fare, set by British Rail and generally only able to be increased by a prescribed amount each year (normally inflation, occasionally inflation +1%)