the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

[Bald Rick]

I have no realistic alternative to using Thameslink. And I'm not prepared to:

I don't know your personal circumstances, but you almost certainly do have alternatives. They will take longer, be less comfortable, or cost more, or any combination. But they exist. And you will choose to use Thameslink as it is the best combination of price, time and comfort for your circumstances.

My alternatives:

5 hour walk (free except for shoe wear)
80 minutes bike ride (free except for tyre wear, and considerably less safe)
60-90 minute drive (much more expensive, and less reliable)
50 mins moped trip (would have to buy one...)
15 min drive or half hour bike to a zone 6 tube station for a 45 min tube trip (cheaper, but not much if driving to the tube)
30 mins on Thameslink with a walk either end.

Except walking, all are realistic. But I choose Thameslink. If it gets bad enough that the cost / time / comfort equation makes one of the others more attractive, I'll switch. But it's unlikely.

 

[DelayRepay]

Delay Repay is a crooked system that depends on the person who has been disadvantaged filling in a form, waiting weeks for the TOC to concoct a reason why the claim shouldn't be paid and if successful, receiving their "compensation" in the form of a travel voucher. Compensation should be in a form that hurts the TOC financially and benefits the consumer, not the other way around.

I agree. The other problem with Delay Repay is if the service is completely cancelled in the morning, I might decide not to travel. I might decide to drive to another office instead of going into London, I might work from home or I might decide it's all too much hassle and take a day's annual leave. Because I haven't travelled, I haven't been delayed so strictly speaking cannot claim. Yet I have still paid for a day's travel which I cannot use.

The same applies when there are planned engineering works. I know these are inevitable and if I regularly travel at weekends I should expect some longer journies as a result. But again, I have paid in advance for a service which is not being provided on particular days and therefore should receive a partial refund, in my opinion.

 

[AM9]

1) For the exact (generic) wording Company law says the interests of shareholders (not necessarily financial). Relevant section is: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/172



The purpose of the company can also be re-defined in constitutional documents e.g. common for certain 'public interest' companies/charities.

Quite, none of that conflicts with what I said, i.e. the responsibility to do what is best for its shareholders does not include breaking the law, either criminal of civil. Directors as well as employees actually involved, are directly responsible for breaches of health and safety legislation, (and environmental law AFAIK). No court would entertain a claim of a legal responsibility to shareholders as a defence. Nor would it be a valid excuse to default on a commercial contract willingly entered into with HMG or another party.

2) Because season ticket holders pay very high fees and have had years of some of the least reliable services on the Thameslink line. The change from 5%/10% performance discounts to Delay Repay continues to be woefully inappropriate for a commuter service where persistent short delays add up into meaningful chunks of your life.

(And of course, the pricing system isn't sophisicated enough to reward season ticket holders who routinely commute outside peak hours - I routinely depart my home station after 9.30am, and leave London after 7pm...or part-time workers tho I'm aware there is meant to be a trial).

Season Ticket holders do not pay a "very high price" for peak hour travel compared to individual travellers. Take SAC to STP in 2015 as an example:
anytime return £19.60
annual season cost per return trip for 200 days per year £16.44
that's a 16% discount. It costs £12.00 for an off-peak ticket so the season ticket price is pretty good considering all the investment made specially for peak travellers.
The fact that they spend so much in a year is irrelevant, they get a lot of travel for their money. They can even include leisure travel over the route at no extra cost, (something that I imagine would be used by a sizeable number of season ticket holders on a prime route to London, - even moreso with a travelcard).

 

[SimonS]

True, but if you buy a ST you pay in advance and the rail companies have use of your money.

It sits in a bank account and helps them to avoid borrowing more money which would cost them several percent, even at current interest rates.

So it's a win/win really.

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree. The other problem with Delay Repay is if the service is completely cancelled in the morning, I might decide not to travel. I might decide to drive to another office instead of going into London, I might work from home or I might decide it's all too much hassle and take a day's annual leave. Because I haven't travelled, I haven't been delayed so strictly speaking cannot claim. Yet I have still paid for a day's travel which I cannot use.

I would claim in this scenario, but only if I genuinely intended to make the journey, and would have been delayed sufficiently to qualify. A journey can be delayed at the origin in my opinion

 

[Chrisgr31]

The fact that they spend so much in a year is irrelevant, they get a lot of travel for their money. They can even include leisure travel over the route at no extra cost, (something that I imagine would be used by a sizeable number of season ticket holders on a prime route to London, - even moreso with a travelcard).

I very rarely use my season ticket for leisure travel, maybe once a year at the most, and I am not unusual amongst my fellow commuters. I suspect those living in the travelcard zone, with travel cards use them a lot more.

However season tickets are still good value for money, even if I disagree with the calculation of delay repay as I seem to recall it doesnt allow for holidays, assumes weekend travel very regularly etc. However its better than nothing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I really don't understand why posters on here are defending a system which is so obviously broken (unless you're all shareholders in the TOCs).

Delay Repay is a crooked system that depends on the person who has been disadvantaged filling in a form, waiting weeks for the TOC to concoct a reason why the claim shouldn't be paid and if successful, receiving their "compensation" in the form of a travel voucher. Compensation should be in a form that hurts the TOC financially and benefits the consumer, not the other way around.

Southern issue travel vouchers and its a great way of helping to reduce the cost of the renewal, however you can also exchange their vouchers for cash at one of their manned stations.

I have yet to have them argue that a valid claim is not valid. i.e they have only rejected a claim when I got the date wrong, once I corrected that they paid it.

TOCs cannot automatically pay out (well Southern could to holders of the Key) because they dont know what train a season ticket holder is on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would claim in this scenario, but only if I genuinely intended to make the journey, and would have been delayed sufficiently to qualify. A journey can be delayed at the origin in my opinion

So would I. If the delay is sufficient for you to make alternative arrangements even if those include staying at home, I think a claim is reasonable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Delay Repay is a crooked system that depends on the person who has been disadvantaged filling in a form.

Whilst it is not crooked in my opinion where it falls down is in compensating for the daily delays if indeed there any. So Delay Repay only kicks in after 30 minutes. In theory every train you catch could be 29 mins late and there would be no compensation and that isn't right.

 

[The Box Photter]

I don't know your personal circumstances, but you almost certainly do have alternatives. They will take longer, be less comfortable, or cost more, or any combination. But they exist. And you will choose to use Thameslink as it is the best combination of price, time and comfort for your circumstances.

My alternatives:

5 hour walk (free except for shoe wear)
80 minutes bike ride (free except for tyre wear, and considerably less safe)
60-90 minute drive (much more expensive, and less reliable)
50 mins moped trip (would have to buy one...)
15 min drive or half hour bike to a zone 6 tube station for a 45 min tube trip (cheaper, but not much if driving to the tube)
30 mins on Thameslink with a walk either end.

Except walking, all are realistic. But I choose Thameslink. If it gets bad enough that the cost / time / comfort equation makes one of the others more attractive, I'll switch. But it's unlikely.

All your scenarios assume that my journey to work ends once I have alighted from the Thameslink train. Many people (including me) have further journeys to make on public transport within London to get to their place of work. In my case, I could travel by car, but the journey would take between 2 and 3 hours at peak time and there's nowhere to park once I get to work. So factoring in petrol, insurance, wear & tear, congestion charge and parking costs, the train is the only REALISTIC option.

The big problem with delay repay is that delays of 15 - 20 mins are commonplace, but I can't make a claim. Add up even 10 minutes delay in each direction 5 days a week, that's a lot of my time Thameslink and its predecessor has stolen from me without redress.

Under the previous system, season ticket holders automatically received a cash payment at their "home" stations whenever there was significant disruption.

 

[AM9]

True, but if you buy a ST you pay in advance and the rail companies have use of your money.

It sits in a bank account and helps them to avoid borrowing more money which would cost them several percent, even at current interest rates.

So it's a win/win really.

That would be an issue in times of high interest rates, but with earned interest rates around 1-3%, it's hardly worth worrying about for a 16% discount.

 

[Abpj17]

And a lot of London based employers will offer 0% season ticket loans to allow their staff to buy annual tickets (but that depends on the type of job etc.)

AM9 - season ticket holders pay an absolute high price (particularly those well outside the Travelcard zones who genuinely have less realistic options - because the next line over isn't easy to get to). As I said, this is even worse for those who don't travel in the peak (as your argument about investment in peak infrastructure doesn't carry weight for those travellers). As others have said, leisure travel is pretty uncommon. I'm one of those who does use it (taking the kids into London etc.) on a relatively common basis. My dad didn't use it once for the decade he commuted on trains - if you are in London all week, you often don't want to visit at the weekend.

The most credible alternative I can think of at the moment is the coach service - but where I live it's a once a day service, I would never see the children during the week and it's impractical given the 30 -45 mins additional journey in London as I'm out in Docklands for a year. It was a super cheap alternative when I was young though, but the once a day orientated around 9-5 hours isn't terribly practical for certain types/levels of jobs.

 

[AM9]

I very rarely use my season ticket for leisure travel, maybe once a year at the most, and I am not unusual amongst my fellow commuters. I suspect those living in the travelcard zone, with travel cards use them a lot more.

However season tickets are still good value for money, even if I disagree with the calculation of delay repay as I seem to recall it doesnt allow for holidays, assumes weekend travel very regularly etc. However its better than nothing.

I was referring to the example given, i.e. St Albans to St Pancras, but I also mentioned similar journeys, i.e. from somewhere outside London into the centre. London is the major cultural centre in the south-east and also on the route to many other places for leisure activities, (including shopping). You don't say whether you are commuting from a place similar to St Albans, but I know many here do. Many commuters from such stations also have some Travelcard validity on their season tickets.

The NRE season ticket webpage says that their stated daily rate (£6.85) is calculated on the basis of "2 journeys per day for 48 weeks, 20 days annual leave", i.e. a £13.70 return trip on 240 days. I recalculated that to 200 days allowing for more generous leave allowances, some sickness and possible company travel elsewhere or training days, giving a daily fare of £16.44. Add to that the opportunity for additional journeys (or parts of them) at no extra cost and as you agree, season tickets are good value.

 

[jon0844]

TOCs don't get all the season ticket money up front to sit in their accounts do they?

 

[Geezertronic]

Add up even 10 minutes delay in each direction 5 days a week, that's a lot of my time Thameslink and its predecessor has stolen from me without redress.

Taking one of the other options might make you appreciate that, whilst not perfect, the train isn't half as bad as you're making out.

I always used to prefer the train, Tube & DLR from Birmingham to East India (DLR Station) but are forced to drive now due to the amount of stuff I have to carry with me. Door to door, the car is slower 90% of the time and I would suggest that the Northern Line was the worst part of the journey when travelling by train

I even preferred the train, walk, and train from Birmingham to St Albans and must have got lucky because I was only heavily delayed once from SAC to STP LL

Whilst inconvenient, any delays only meant I missed out on my coffee to make up time

 

[AM9]

AM9 - season ticket holders pay an absolute high price (particularly those well outside the Travelcard zones who genuinely have less realistic options - because the next line over isn't easy to get to). As I said, this is even worse for those who don't travel in the peak (as your argument about investment in peak infrastructure doesn't carry weight for those travellers). As others have said, leisure travel is pretty uncommon. I'm one of those who does use it (taking the kids into London etc.) on a relatively common basis. My dad didn't use it once for the decade he commuted on trains - if you are in London all week, you often don't want to visit at the weekend.

All peak tickets are expensive compared with the cheapest off-peak deals but providing that service in the peak costs an 'absolute high price' so unless it is policy to transfer some of those high costs to those who's travel makes less demand on trains and infrastructure, it would appear that season ticket holders get a better deal than most. I would agree with you that there should be an off-peak season ticket for those who don't put demands on the network's peak capacity.
As far as additional leisure journeys on the tickets go, I do know some travellers personally, probably not on this forum, who frequently use their seasons (including car-park seasons) for leisure travel, and also gain from things like Gold Card benefits, which others have to pay for separately.

The most credible alternative I can think of at the moment is the coach service - but where I live it's a once a day service, I would never see the children during the week and it's impractical given the 30 -45 mins additional journey in London as I'm out in Docklands for a year. It was a super cheap alternative when I was young though, but the once a day orientated around 9-5 hours isn't terribly practical for certain types/levels of jobs.

Don't know where you commute from but here in Thameslink north country an option for some could be the Green Line services. They are of course prey to traffic problems but so are cars etc..

 

[plymothian]

Upon franchise change, I got the impression that GoVia were going to be the saviours that had crushed the First devil. Are things not as green on the other side of the fence as you had thought?

 

[Saint66]

Upon franchise change, I got the impression that GoVia were going to be the saviours that had crushed the First devil. Are things not as green on the other side of the fence as you had thought?

I, among quite a few other poster's had warned prior to the announcement that First had actually be doing a pretty good job (In comparison to previous years) throughout 2013 and 2014 (Up to the announcement) And it was notable how many posts on the forum after GoVia took over commented on this.

Of course, First were not perfect, and GoVia do actually need to be given time... See how long it took First to finally get everything under control.

 

[jon0844]

But things shouldn't have changed so much when new managers came in. Same staff on the ground, procedures that appeared to be working.. Why rock the boat?

 

[Chrisgr31]

The NRE season ticket webpage says that their stated daily rate (£6.85) is calculated on the basis of "2 journeys per day for 48 weeks, 20 days annual leave", i.e. a £13.70 return trip on 240 days. I recalculated that to 200 days allowing for more generous leave allowances, some sickness and possible company travel elsewhere or training days, giving a daily fare of £16.44. Add to that the opportunity for additional journeys (or parts of them) at no extra cost and as you agree, season tickets are good value.

Its a shame that the same calculation isn't used to work out Delay Repay. For Delay Repay Govia and I asume the other TOCs assume that an annual ticket holder makes 546 journeys so 273 days travelling. Most season ticket holders wont commute for 6 weeks (4 weeks holiday and 2 weeks of bank holidays). So they are making 230 commuting round trips. Govia therefore assume they make 43 leisure trips or nearly one a week.

On other points covered in the thread I note that Southerns website states:-

"Delay Repay claims are made on a per journey basis, not a per service basis. Because of this, we ask you to tell us the time of the service you planned to take and then we can base your compensation on the actual length of the delay you experienced. You cannot, therefore, claim for every possible service that was delayed or cancelled. In order to process your claim, we require you to advise us which service you actually intended to travel on.

All claims are checked and verified. Southern reserves the right to prosecute fraudulent claimants."

So they say its the service you intended to travel on, so if you dont travel you can claim, but you cant claim if you werent on it or didnt intend to traval. Makes sense really.

Oh and I believe Southern have been trialling off-peak season tickets and those that allow travel 3 or 4 days a week. Personally i don't understand how it works as it might be cheaper to buy a 4 day season ticket and then a return for day 5!

 

[The Box Photter]

All peak tickets are expensive compared with the cheapest off-peak deals but providing that service in the peak costs an 'absolute high price' so unless it is policy to transfer some of those high costs to those who's travel makes less demand on trains and infrastructure, it would appear that season ticket holders get a better deal than most. I would agree with you that there should be an off-peak season ticket for those who don't put demands on the network's peak capacity.
As far as additional leisure journeys on the tickets go, I do know some travellers personally, probably not on this forum, who frequently use their seasons (including car-park seasons) for leisure travel, and also gain from things like Gold Card benefits, which others have to pay for separately.



Don't know where you commute from but here in Thameslink north country an option for some could be the Green Line services. They are of course prey to traffic problems but so are cars etc..

The nearest Green Line service for me would be Luton - London Route 757, which starts ten miles away, so I'd need to drive to Luton & pay to park all day or use Thameslink to get to Luton.

I agree that the train is probably the least worst option, but because of that the train operator has a captive market who have no REAL alternative. As a result they seem to think we should just be thankful we get to London at some time near 9 o'clock in the morning and get home, eventually. It is the lack of proper competition which makes the notion of injecting private enterprise into the railway a complete farce. There are no competing rail companies that run from my station into London. Even if I drove 15 miles to Milton Keynes, London Midland is also GoVia and 12 miles the other way to Arlesey is GTR Great Northern (Thameslink).

So I and many thousands of other passengers have no alternative but to use trains operated by the same private company (which is part-owned by French National Railways). Whether it is British Rail or GTR Thameslink, a monopoly of service applies. The big difference being that GTR Thameslink has a duty to pay dividends to its shareholders first, before delivering a service to its customers.

Rail privatisation is broken. It was broken the minute it was taken out of the box.

 

[jon0844]

The Green Line service from Stevenage to London (via Hatfield) is being axed in February, and others might well go too.

 

[Hadders]

You might think rail privitisation is broken (personally I'm neutral on the issue) but let's not go all gooey-eyed for British Rail, please.

Season tickets are expensive but depending on the route you effectively pay off-peak fare levels for anytime travel. If you paid for your petrol once a year it would also seem far more expensive!

People are also far less forgiving when it comes to the railways. A car journey or air plane arriving within 10 minutes of schedule at the busiest time of the day would be considered an excellent result yet on the railways it is seen as a disgrace!

 

[Abpj17]

AM9 - I live in Leagrave, we get one service a day each way, in the morning this is at the most ungodly hour of 6.30 or so. Otherwise, it’s a bus into Luton centre first and then connect. Given the travel at the other end, if I take children to school, that means I’m not realistically getting to desk before midday. (I recognise there is a premium for faster travel/frequency for the trains). My dad commuted on Green Line (he would drive into Luton and park) for years - he would switch between coach and trains every few years whenever he got fed up of the one he was currently on! I used the Marshall’s service from Dunstable for a year when I first started work (but it suffers the same problem with being a peak hour service only). As I’ve got more senior at work and the job gets more interesting, unfortunately the coach ceases to be a credible option. (I’m not yet in the ‘very senior’ zone where meetings are arranged around my diary lol).

jon - I’ve always assumed the luton/airport services are relatively safe for greenline (but the routes serving other towns and luton suburbs decidedly less so)

 

[AM9]

AM9 - I live in Leagrave, we get one service a day each way, in the morning this is at the most ungodly hour of 6.30 or so. Otherwise, it’s a bus into Luton centre first and then connect. Given the travel at the other end, if I take children to school, that means I’m not realistically getting to desk before midday. (I recognise there is a premium for faster travel/frequency for the trains). My dad commuted on Green Line (he would drive into Luton and park) for years - he would switch between coach and trains every few years whenever he got fed up of the one he was currently on! I used the Marshall’s service from Dunstable for a year when I first started work (but it suffers the same problem with being a peak hour service only). As I’ve got more senior at work and the job gets more interesting, unfortunately the coach ceases to be a credible option. (I’m not yet in the ‘very senior’ zone where meetings are arranged around my diary lol).

I know it can be fairly restrictive when all the impractical options are discounted but I was just speaking of some of the alternatives to a straight TL commute. I am retired now so commuting isn't an issue for me, but I had my share of it. In the early '70s, as a sole earner with a young family, I had to get from Colchester to Ilford on six days a week. For an 08:30 to 17:00 job (to 12:30 on Saturdays), it took 34 trains in total.

 

[The Box Photter]

If British Rail had received the amount of money that the privatised railway has received in Government subsidy, who can say that it wouldn't have improved.

BR was an archaic system with demoralised staff and decrepit trains & infrastructure, but it was BR that gave us the HST, the MkIII carriage and electrification. Had it been allowed to persevere with the APT, Beardy wouldn't have needed to get his trains from Italy.

What happens now is that the fragmented railway sees money slip between the cracks each time a sub-contractor is tasked to do a job that BR would have done in-house. Consultation fees, legal fees and franchise bids all have to be paid for out of money that should be used for actually running and improving the railway. What good comes of the TOC corporate lawyers arguing with the train leasing company's corporate lawyers about how much the charge will be this year to lease clapped out Pacers?

 

[AM9]

If British Rail had received the amount of money that the privatised railway has received in Government subsidy, who can say that it wouldn't have improved.

BR was an archaic system with demoralised staff and decrepit trains & infrastructure, but it was BR that gave us the HST, the MkIII carriage and electrification. Had it been allowed to persevere with the APT, Beardy wouldn't have needed to get his trains from Italy.

What happens now is that the fragmented railway sees money slip between the cracks each time a sub-contractor is tasked to do a job that BR would have done in-house. Consultation fees, legal fees and franchise bids all have to be paid for out of money that should be used for actually running and improving the railway. What good comes of the TOC corporate lawyers arguing with the train leasing company's corporate lawyers about how much the charge will be this year to lease clapped out Pacers?

I agree with all of that! If only governments were voted into power based on their transport policies.

 

[talldave]

I agree with all of that! If only governments were voted into power based on their transport policies.

If only governments were voted into power based on any of their policies! I'm always amazed that people don't appear to know what they are voting for - many won't know what a manifesto is, never mind read it.

 

[EM2]

I'm surprised there's not more demand for commuter coach services. The ones from Kent seem to do very well, a friend of mine uses them every day from Ashford to Canary Wharf and is at his desk by 8am every day, and pays something like £3k for an annual season, with free wi-fi and coffee!

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'm surprised there's not more demand for commuter coach services. The ones from Kent seem to do very well, a friend of mine uses them every day from Ashford to Canary Wharf and is at his desk by 8am every day, and pays something like £3k for an annual season, with free wi-fi and coffee!

The advantage that the north Kent coaches have is that they are straight on to the motorway from their departure points, and then once they hit the congestion towards London there are bus lanes they can use. Also the rail lines (unless on HS1) aren't particularly quick from that area.

So the outcome is you get a significant saving in cost, at not too much cost in time.

Not sure there are many other areas where that applies. There are I think quite a few coaches that come in from the Oxford area, but I know for example there is only a limited coach service from Tunbridge Wells.

 

[Abpj17]

The advantage that the north Kent coaches have is that they are straight on to the motorway from their departure points, and then once they hit the congestion towards London there are bus lanes they can use. Also the rail lines (unless on HS1) aren't particularly quick from that area.

So the outcome is you get a significant saving in cost, at not too much cost in time.

Not sure there are many other areas where that applies. There are I think quite a few coaches that come in from the Oxford area, but I know for example there is only a limited coach service from Tunbridge Wells.

Yeah, there are some combinations that work well - Kent to Docklands, Essex to Liverpool Street, Herts/Bucks to Marylebone etc. If you don't live on the same side of the city as where you work though, the coach journey can be quite long once you reach London or you need to change for the tube (which increases the costs/reduces the benefits).

 

[EM2]

Yeah, there are some combinations that work well - Kent to Docklands, Essex to Liverpool Street, Herts/Bucks to Marylebone etc. If you don't live on the same side of the city as where you work though, the coach journey can be quite long once you reach London or you need to change for the tube (which increases the costs/reduces the benefits).

Well, that's why I thought it'd be perfect in competition to Thameslink. M1, then A41 or A406/A1 to Euston Road? Easybus seem to do pretty well from Luton Airport to Baker Street.

 

[Inspector999]

None of this addresses the latest gripe of not advertising the services you operate to the people who want to use them. FCC displayed ALL services at Luton Airport Parkway while 'Thameslink' don't. That is a difference and it is difficult to understand the reasoning behind it. With a half hour headway for passengers using the stopping services after 8pm surely there is a greater need to advertise those services which are less frequent than just the next fastest train in to London.

Try not to get too worked up about this there are far more important things to get angry about!

It was a new idea for this bit of railway - worth trying but it hasn't worked because unlike other places with "next fastest trains too ..." such as London Victoria, it didn't have the full stopping patterns of the next few trains shown as well.

All that's needed is the next three or four trains fully listed and the "next fastest" so that people can work out which of those four will get them where they want to go to most quickly.