The last Barrow - Euston loco hauled service ?

[General Zod]

Greetings.
I'm currently reading Michael Williams' "On The Slow Train: Twelve Great British Railway Journeys" and a jolly good read it is too. One chapter covers the Cumbrian coast line and during his ramblings Williams mentions that there used to be a direct loco hauled service from Barrow to Euston and this was axed in the late 70s / early 80s. Would any seasoned veterans know when exactly the last train departed and what Class diesel used to haul the train down to London ?

Thanks.

 

[sprinterguy]

The train would be electric hauled southbound from Preston; at the time that the service operated it would most likely be locos of classes 81-85 that performed this leg of the duty.

A little bit of internet digging suggests that class 31s hauled the train from Barrow to Preston, with the stock formed of pressure ventilated mark 2s, in it's final days. This would make sense as class 31s were very much prevalent providing power for pretty much anything in the Lancashire and Westmoreland area during the seventies. An unverified source says that the service ended sometime during 1980, and also that class 40s could be used from Barrow if a 31 was unavailable.

 

[PhilipW]

Perhaps going back a bit early than the 1980s there used to be 2 through services a day both north and southbound

Southbound was was around 09:00 and the other around 14:00
Northbound they were morning (can't remember the time) and at about 17:00,
so the times fitted in well to return southbound.

The 09:00 ex Barrow used to arrive at Preston at 10:45 and consisted both of coaches just to Preston and coaches through to Euston. The Euston ones were in the rear. These were uncoupled and pulled out of Preston backwards (ie. northbound) and then shunted forward to join on the back of the train from Blackpool which had just arrived. The combined (ex Blackpool and ex Barrow) train then left Preston at 11:00 for Euston. It was a long train.

Similar splits were done northbound (certainly on the 17:05 ex Euston).

Going back further in time the train that left Barrow at 09:00 consisted of carriages starting at Barrow and carriages coming through from Workington, leaving there at 06:53 if my memory serves me correct.

Certainly into the 1960s there were through Workington to Euston carriages.

I don't think the services were stopped because of lack of patronage, mainly to do with operational convenience (splitting sections, diesal/electric) etc. All far too much bother for the railway industry. Easy solution - stop the trains and let the customer change.

 

[AJP62]

Yes convenience was probably the reason they stopped. There were Carlisle - Euston workings in the 70s for the more local stops doing Penrith/Oxenholme/Wigan/Warrington while the Glasgow trains were more express stopping patterns. There were about 4 Carlisle Euston trains per day and some covered portions to Barrow too so all sets had to be in portion formation with 4 coaches in one portion and about 6 in the other which contained the restaurant car. This of course meant that it was a gamble where first and second class were as well as the vans.

I remember the train off Carlisle in the mid 70s about 8am picked up a portion from Barrow at Preston. The Barrow portion arrived behind a class 50 (all 4 coaches of it!) which detached then the usual 86 off the Carlisle portion shunted across to get the Barrow portion then backed it onto the front of the Carlisle portion. Going north it would be easier with the Barrow portion then on the back of the train - this was about 18.00 off Eustion which was by then a different rake of coaches as the morning ones had gone back north.

I'm not sure how long the through trains lasted lasted but 50s were used until they all left for the WR when 47/4s took over.

There was also the sleeper train until the 80s I think. This had a Preston only sleeper or two that stayed at the north end of the main platform all day in a little bay.

I think the 40s and 31s were used on the Regional Railways services to Preston and Manchester though I expect 40s substituted for the 50s/47s as required.

 

[PhilipW]

Yes, Barrow did have a sleeper service too till quite late on, probably splitting and joining at Preston to other destinations. Electric south of Preston

Ex Euston it was at 23:45 ish.
Ex Barrow it was 20:40 arriving Euston at about 02:30 and you could stay in the carriage till around 07:30.

The southbound sleeper took the mail south. If you missed the last post from the post box, you could go onto the station till 20:39 and put your letter into the box on the side of the mail carriage. Wow, seems a world away from what happens today.

The northbound sleeper brought the mail up too.

The main Barrow Post Office was just over the road from the station and they had their own path under the road bridge to the platforms to wheel the mail trollies back/forth.

Having abandoned Barrow services because of the operational hassle, this was, of course, just a precursor to abandoning the Euston-Blackpool Services for the same resaon in 1982/83. One can but hope that if Preston-Blackpool does get electrified, these through services can be restored. It does make sense to such a key destination.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Having abandoned Barrow services because of the operational hassle, this was, of course, just a precursor to abandoning the Euston-Blackpool Services for the same resaon in 1982/83. One can but hope that if Preston-Blackpool does get electrified, these through services can be restored. It does make sense to such a key destination.

Alliance rail are already in process of (possibly new stock) applying to operate services from blackpool and barrow to london.

 

[4SRKT]

My 1985 timetable has a through service from Barrow to London at 07:25, arriving at Euston at 12:11. Return working is at 18:05, arriving Barrow at 22:36. The southbound working changed locos at Lancaster, while northbound this happened at Preston. Loco was booked an ETH duff, but could produce a 40 sometimes as these were very commonly found locos on the Cumbrian coast freights. The fact that they couldn't power the ETH didn't matter too much on a short run. Obviously by 1985 class 40 haulage was pretty unlikely.

By 1987 this working has disappeared, although there is still a daily loco hauled working in the shape of the 05:27 Barrow > Manchester Victoria and 19:40 Preston > Barrow.

Having abandoned Barrow services because of the operational hassle, this was, of course, just a precursor to abandoning the Euston-Blackpool Services for the same resaon in 1982/83. One can but hope that if Preston-Blackpool does get electrified, these through services can be restored. It does make sense to such a key destination.

Blackpool through services lasted much longer than this. In 1987 there were departures from Euston to Blackpool at 09:00, 12:00, 16:30 and 19:30. I'm sure they lasted a good few years after this as well.

 

[paul1609]

Alliance rail are already in process of (possibly new stock) applying to operate services from blackpool and barrow to london.

I think the problem with through services to Blackpool is that it is not a key destination from London and the southeast. I bet if I asked around in my village pub tonight in Kent I would struggle to find another person who had been there.
Blackpool is very much a regional resort probably because from London there are better and closer resorts.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Blackpool through services lasted much longer than this. In 1987 there were departures from Euston to Blackpool at 09:00, 12:00, 16:30 and 19:30. I'm sure they lasted a good few years after this as well.

VT scrapped them in 2002 methinks

 

[4SRKT]

I think the problem with through services to Blackpool is that it is not a key destination from London and the southeast. I bet if I asked around in my village pub tonight in Kent I would struggle to find another person who had been there.
Blackpool is very much a regional resort probably because from London there are better and closer resorts.

Closer maybe, but better? Hardly

I'm not sure this argument holds. Sunderland, Bradford, Hull, Wrexham to name but a few are hardly key destinations from London and the South East, but all have through services to/from London. What is more important is that London is a key destination for everywhere, and a through service to London is seen as important for status and regeneration. Blackpool isn't just a holiday resort, just as Hull isn't just a port or Bradford just a place where people used to make cloth. All these places are large settlements the majority of whose populations have little or nothing to do with the traditional industries any more.

 

[PhilipW]

My 1985 timetable has a through service from Barrow to London at 07:25, arriving at Euston at 12:11. Return working is at 18:05, arriving Barrow at 22:36. The southbound working changed locos at Lancaster, while northbound this happened at Preston.

By 1987 this has disappeared,

Blackpool through services lasted much longer than this. In 1987 there were departures from Euston to Blackpool at 09:00, 12:00, 16:30 and 19:30. I'm sure they lasted a good few years after this as well.

Ok, thanks. Both the through services to Barrow and Blackpool lasted a bit longer that I thought.

I started using the services in the 1950s as a schoolboy. The (then) 09:00 from Barrow arrived in Euston just after 15:00. How times have changed. I can still remember arriving in the old Doric Arch Euston.

 

[43106]

Certainly into the 1960s there were through Workington to Euston carriages.

Yes, I remember these - they ran these services for Workington Steel Works executives, Albright & Wilson (a.k.a. Marchon - pronounced Marshon) executives from Whitehaven, Sellafield scientists/managers, Millom Steel works managers and Barrow Shipbuilders. I used to live in Seascale in the early 1960's and I recall seeing the Euston express pass through the station, usually pulled by a Princess Royal (46201 et al) with its distinctive trailing bogie. How the hell these monsters negociated the very tight curves around Nethertown & Braystones is beyond me!
If my memory serves me right, ALL services from Workington and/or Barrow joined up with other services from Blackpool and/or Carlisle and/or Glasgow. I've got an old LMR timetable from 1962 that gives timings for these services. If there's enough interest, I could attach some of the timings on a Spreadsheet.

 

[paul1609]

Closer maybe, but better? Hardly

I'm not sure this argument holds. Sunderland, Bradford, Hull, Wrexham to name but a few are hardly key destinations from London and the South East, but all have through services to/from London. What is more important is that London is a key destination for everywhere, and a through service to London is seen as important for status and regeneration. Blackpool isn't just a holiday resort, just as Hull isn't just a port or Bradford just a place where people used to make cloth. All these places are large settlements the majority of whose populations have little or nothing to do with the traditional industries any more.

Sadly I don't think a through service to London offers any such regeneration benefits. I don't see a queue of families at king cross asking for a day return to Hartlepool to spend their money at the fabulous resort. It probably makes it easier for talented people to seek employment in the south east maybe retaining a weekend cottage in't north but that's about it.

 

[tbtc]

Sadly I don't think a through service to London offers any such regeneration benefits

I think you are right.

You can argue about "putting a town on the map" and similar cliches, but I'm not convinced.

Is Retford booming whilst Worksop struggles? I think most people in the Dukeries would prefer a good train service to the "county town" of Nottingham rather than a London service.

 

[PhilipW]

I am a bit surprised at the lack of enthusiasm for the return of through Blackpool to Euston services if/when Preston-Blackpool is electrified.

I can understand the argument that there may not be that many people in the London area who want to go to Blackpool, but that argument holds true for Preston and Lancaster where current trains terminate.

Howeveer I would have thought that there would be a fair degree of demand from travel from Blackpool to Euston. Remember also it is not just the residents of Blackpool itself but the whole Fylde penisula from St Annes to Fleetwood.

Furthmore the economies of running Pendolinos the extra 20 mins to Blackpool to turn round rather than Preston/Lancaster would seem to be feasable to me. Just my thoughts. If the people of Flydle want the service, I guess it is for them to campaign for it.

 

[David Dunning]

Sadly I don't think a through service to London offers any such regeneration benefits. I don't see a queue of families at king cross asking for a day return to Hartlepool to spend their money at the fabulous resort. It probably makes it easier for talented people to seek employment in the south east maybe retaining a weekend cottage in't north but that's about it.

That's kinda of true to a degree. Although when firms relocate transport links are important. Hull is one example that would claim to benefit from having regular trains to London . A direct train takes cars off the road. ( Few drive the M62 to Donny now to catch a train) It's not really about asking how many Londoners would travel to Hartlepool , it's about the Durham Coast being connected to the rest of the world. And at the end of the day people just dont like changing trains.

 

[yorkie]

Greetings.
I'm currently reading Michael Williams' "On The Slow Train: Twelve Great British Railway Journeys" and a jolly good read it is too. One chapter covers the Cumbrian coast line and during his ramblings Williams mentions that there used to be a direct loco hauled service from Barrow to Euston and this was axed in the late 70s / early 80s. Would any seasoned veterans know when exactly the last train departed and what Class diesel used to haul the train down to London ?

Thanks.

It's actually Up to London and it would be quire rare for a diesel to haul all the way to London, but it may have happened occasionally if there was a shortage of electric locos. I recall in the last days of loco haulage on the North Wales Coast (c.2004) there was an occasion when a Class 47 went all the way to Euston, due to a lack of availability of 87s at the time. This would probably have been less likely in the 70s/80s when more locos were available.

 

[Old Timer]

It's actually Up to London and it would be quire rare for a diesel to haul all the way to London, but it may have happened occasionally if there was a shortage of electric locos. I recall in the last days of loco haulage on the North Wales Coast (c.2004) there was an occasion when a Class 47 went all the way to Euston, due to a lack of availability of 87s at the time. This would probably have been less likely in the 70s/80s when more locos were available.

The sleeper train on the Up was the "famous 1A00 2040/45 Barrow to Euston.

This continued in service with Mk1 sleeper vehicles until it finished.

During the 1970/80s, very, very few 87s were seen overnight on the WCML as the night services were either wholly Mk1 or conveyed mk1 parcels vehicles which did not require to be dual or air braked.

F/Liners were principally allocated to the 86s, although the Irish Mail nearly always was an 86, as was 1A01 overnight Liverpool/Manchester to Euston.

1A00 was pretty much always an 81 to 85 midweek as were some of the Scottish overnighters simply because they ran at 80mph and were "light"trains - although on a Sat night 1A00 would load up to 20 odd vehicles and was thus normally an 86 !

Diesel haulage to London would have been extremely unlikely (especially on a Sat night) although on many occasions during the original Rugby remodelling at the start of the 1980s some trains were diesel hauled from Rugby TV Jct to either Northampton or Bletchley.

 

[General Zod]

Following the sad demise of the steel works and the ship building industry was there ever a government initiative to try to regenerate the area ? I often travel along the Cumbrian coast to visit relatives in Ulverston and the sheer beauty of the coast line never ceases to amaze me. In addition to Morecambe Bay and the coastal villages there are the sands and nature reserves in and around Millom and Barrow - the Cornwall / Devon of the north west springs to mind ( perhaps a slight exaggeration). I'm sure Northern Rail must carry extra passengers during the summer months so why not exploit the natural beauty of the region and simultaneously help the local population by marketing the area as an alternative holiday location ?

 

[4SRKT]

Following the sad demise of the steel works and the ship building industry was there ever a government initiative to try to regenerate the area ? I often travel along the Cumbrian coast to visit relatives in Ulverston and the sheer beauty of the coast line never ceases to amaze me. In addition to Morecambe Bay and the coastal villages there are the sands and nature reserves in and around Millom and Barrow - the Cornwall / Devon of the north west springs to mind ( perhaps a slight exaggeration). I'm sure Northern Rail must carry extra passengers during the summer months so why not exploit the natural beauty of the region and simultaneously help the local population by marketing the area as an alternative holiday location ?

I think the presence of Sellafield and the fact that Maryport, Workington and Barrow are seen as particularly grim places doesn't help matters. It's a real shame because as you say the scenery is stunning. Whitehaven is potentially a very attractive town if it was cleaned up a bit, and there's always the R&ER. I used to go up there for a week at a time volunteering, and these were really great times.

 

[cuccir]

Following the sad demise of the steel works and the ship building industry was there ever a government initiative to try to regenerate the area ? I often travel along the Cumbrian coast to visit relatives in Ulverston and the sheer beauty of the coast line never ceases to amaze me. In addition to Morecambe Bay and the coastal villages there are the sands and nature reserves in and around Millom and Barrow - the Cornwall / Devon of the north west springs to mind ( perhaps a slight exaggeration). I'm sure Northern Rail must carry extra passengers during the summer months so why not exploit the natural beauty of the region and simultaneously help the local population by marketing the area as an alternative holiday location ?

As a proud Barrovian I feel duty bound to note that there still is a ship building industry there! At least until they make a decision on trident...

They have tried to market the area a bit to be fair (see Lake District Peninsulas) but I agree that more could be done here. To the east we now have 'Oxenholme Lake District' and 'Penrith North Lakes', with bus connections on to various tourist destinations. Why not do this with (say) 'Ulverston South Lakes' or 'Millom West Lakes' and then run integrated bus services to key destinations such as Coniston, Langdale, Eskdale, etc....

 

[paul1609]

That's kinda of true to a degree. Although when firms relocate transport links are important. Hull is one example that would claim to benefitp from having regular trains to London . A direct train takes cars off the road. ( Few drive the M62 to Donny now to catch a train) It's not really about asking how many Londoners would travel to Hartlepool , it's about the Durham Coast being connected to the rest of the world. And at the end of the day people just dont like changing trains.

Really? How many firms have relocated from London to hull recently?
If you don't need to be based in London and the south east invariably you'd be better off relocating to eastern Europe.
Once journey time is outside daily commuting I don't believe direct rail links to London have any positive economic benefit.

 

[4SRKT]

It isn't about relocation of businesses from London. Having a direct rail link to London allows firms to set up or remain in Northern England by allowing its managers to travel to London where much business is done more easily. At least that is the theory. This in itself is a form of regeneration. 'Regeneration' does not mean patrician southerners spending their money in the north. You seem to have an alarmingly south east-centric POV.

 

[General Zod]

Real shame that the trackbed from Foxfield to Conniston has been lifted and much of the land now used for other purposes. Judging by the popularity of Conniston and "The Great Man" , if , hypothetically speaking, that line was re-opened during the summer months would it be a financially viable route ? The times I have been to Torver and Conniston , albeit during the summer holidays, the area has been bustling with tourists and hikers. Unfortunately, I fear that the cost of rebuilding bridges, re-purchasing land, re-routing footpaths and re-routing the track may be an expense which is too much to shoulder.

 

[AJP62]

Yes, Barrow did have a sleeper service too till quite late on, probably splitting and joining at Preston to other destinations. Electric south of Preston

Ex Euston it was at 23:45 ish.
Ex Barrow it was 20:40 arriving Euston at about 02:30 and you could stay in the carriage till around 07:30.

The southbound sleeper took the mail south. If you missed the last post from the post box, you could go onto the station till 20:39 and put your letter into the box on the side of the mail carriage. Wow, seems a world away from what happens today.

The northbound sleeper brought the mail up too.

The main Barrow Post Office was just over the road from the station and they had their own path under the road bridge to the platforms to wheel the mail trollies back/forth.

Having abandoned Barrow services because of the operational hassle, this was, of course, just a precursor to abandoning the Euston-Blackpool Services for the same resaon in 1982/83. One can but hope that if Preston-Blackpool does get electrified, these through services can be restored. It does make sense to such a key destination.

I don't recall the Euston sleeper conveying a TPO vehicle, as opposed to mail vans with bagged letters, but there was the Workington - Huddersfield TPO that would pass through Barrow early evening and would offer the post box on the vehicle side. This connected at Preston with the Night Postal to Euston and at Hudderfield with the York/Aberystwyth TPO. All part of an intricate network of TPOs in the 70s.