the most over the top restrictions introduced

[duncanp]

Don't under any circumstances let the coronaphobes anywhere near this article

Coronavirus: Two-metre rule is based on 'outdated' science as sneeze droplets can travel eight metres, study claims

High-risk environments such as nightclubs and bars should have stricter distancing rules, the British Medical Journal argues.

news.sky.com

Some scientists are seriously suggesting a social distancing rule of eight metres for "high risk" indoor settings such as bars and restaurants.

Complete codswallop of course - you might as well close down the whole hospitality sector, as making the limit eight metres would make most of it uneconomic.

Anyone ever heard of "catch it, kill it, bin it", which is the mitigation for indoor settings where a face mask is not required.

If you sneeze or cough, you can cover your face with your hands, as your hands fulfil the function of a face mask. You can then sanitise your hands and wipe down any surfaces you may have touched in the meantime.

If there really was a risk from people sneezing inside the pub, there would have been a much bigger increase in cases than that which has happened.

The two-metre rule is based on "outdated" science because there is evidence that coronavirus droplets can travel up to 8m (26ft) when someone sneezes or shouts, researchers have claimed.

Social distancing guidelines are "over-simplistic", as small droplets containing COVID-19 can go much further than the government claims, according to the study published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ).


It says that high-risk environments - such as nightclubs or bars - should be subject to social distancing rules of up to 8m, while lower-risk settings could have their rules significantly relaxed.

The report claims: "This would provide greater protection in the highest risk settings but also greater freedom in lower risk settings, potentially enabling a return towards normality in some aspects of social and economic life."

Breathing out, singing, coughing, and sneezing generate gas clouds of exhaled air containing respiratory droplets, they added.


These clouds move the droplets faster and can extend their range up to 7 or 8m within a few seconds.

The research says how far coronavirus droplets can travel depends on a number of different factors, including whether the infected person is outdoors or indoors, the level of ventilation and if they have a face mask on.

 

[Bantamzen]

Don't under any circumstances let the coronaphobes anywhere near this article

Coronavirus: Two-metre rule is based on 'outdated' science as sneeze droplets can travel eight metres, study claims

High-risk environments such as nightclubs and bars should have stricter distancing rules, the British Medical Journal argues.

news.sky.com

Some scientists are seriously suggesting a social distancing rule of eight metres for "high risk" indoor settings such as bars and restaurants.

Complete codswallop of course - you might as well close down the whole hospitality sector, as making the limit eight metres would make most of it uneconomic.

Anyone ever heard of "catch it, kill it, bin it", which is the mitigation for indoor settings where a face mask is not required.

If you sneeze or cough, you can cover your face with your hands, as your hands fulfil the function of a face mask. You can then sanitise your hands and wipe down any surfaces you may have touched in the meantime.

If there really was a risk from people sneezing inside the pub, there would have been a much bigger increase in cases than that which has happened.

Do these people ever go outside? Eight metres in most bars and restaurants would be closure, or even in some of the largest ones only a handful of people. And yes once upon a time people used to just cover there mouths when sneezing or coughing, seemed to work quite well actually.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some scientists are seriously suggesting a social distancing rule of eight metres for "high risk" indoor settings such as bars and restaurants.

Complete codswallop of course - you might as well close down the whole hospitality sector, as making the limit eight metres would make most of it uneconomic.

Yes, the article is very poorly written. It probably should argue that nightclubs and similar cannot reopen until a vaccine - which TBH I believe probably is the case, so we need to look at what economic measures can be put in to mitigate that, either to allow the whole business to effectively be furloughed or similar.

 

[duncanp]

Yes, the article is very poorly written. It probably should argue that nightclubs and similar cannot reopen until a vaccine - which TBH I believe probably is the case, so we need to look at what economic measures can be put in to mitigate that, either to allow the whole business to effectively be furloughed or similar.

The problem with saying that nightclubs cannot open until a vaccine is available is that we don't know whether there will be a vaccine, and we certainly don't know when.

The same applies to indoor concerts, music festivals and allowing fans into sports stadiums.

I rather like what has happened in Germany where they experimented to see how COVID-19 spreads at a crowded concert. This was done under controlled conditions, and everyone who attended was a volunteer.

The information from this can be usd to influence government policy decisions in the future.

In Germany, several thousand volunteers attended a pop-up concert as part of an experiment to understand how COVID-19 spreads in large-scale stadium events — and how to prevent it.
About 1,500 people took part in the experiment Saturday at Arena Leipzig. Researchers put volunteers in three different concert simulations with varying health and safety protocols, admission plans and seat assignments. All participants were required to test negative for the coronavirus 48 hours before the event and wear masks throughout the experiment.
It was the first time people in Germany were allowed inside an indoor arena for a concert since authorities banned major events at the start of the pandemic. Even though Germany was praised early on for its response to the pandemic, case numbers have been rising recently. The daily number of new infections surpassed 2,000 on Saturday for the first time since April.
The study was organized by Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg and cost nearly $1.2 million. Researchers set out to collect data on crowd behavior to understand better how COVID-19 spreads at large cultural and social events, said Michael Gekle, dean of the medical faculty at the university.

Gekle hopes the data will "contribute to national decisions as to whether an event should take place or not, thanks to reliable predictions as to the risk of additional infections related to such an event," he told German state broadcaster DW.
The first scenario simulated an event before the time of the pandemic with no social distancing at all. The second concert included multiple points of entry to reduce crowding and more space between participants. The third concert had a smaller audience and strictly enforced social distancing by making participants stand 5 feet apart, the distance recommended by the German Ministry of Health.
Scientists gave each participant an electronic contact tracing device that recorded their movements throughout the stadium. Hand sanitizer mixed with fluorescent marking spray also helped track which surfaces people most frequently touched. A smoke machine helped participants visualize the aerosols that help spread the virus.
German pop singer Tim Bendzko performed during the three scenarios. While he was skeptical that the concerts would feel realistic, he told The Associated Press that the crowd was engaged.
"We really had a lot of fun," he told the AP. "We survived drive-in concerts this summer and in that respect, for us, this is a first step toward normalcy."
Even though only about a third of the 4,200 volunteers expected showed up for the experiment, researchers said they were satisfied with the data collected. The results of the study are expected in four to six weeks.
Before the study was conducted, critics said such an experiment could not accurately create the conditions of a real concert, where people are drinking alcohol and singing without wearing masks. Gekle said health authorities wouldn't allow participants to drink indoors during the experiment.
"That's the problem of every study, that it's not the 'real world,' " he said. "So we faced the option of either remaining without data or having data that doesn't completely reflect the normal context — but it's still halfway there. And halfway is still better than nothing at all."

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, true. Though the idea of a nightclub, particularly a superclub, was dying off anyway even pre COVID, so might one angle be providing grants to convert clubs to seated bars, and where appropriate for existing businesses to find new venues to convert their business? A dancefloor can always be added later.

I'm not sure that many people actually like sweaty nightclubs, part of their popularity was just because for many years they were the only way to drink after 2320. In MK for instance the only one I can now think of is Pink Punters, the others have all closed pre-COVID.

 

[talldave]

I can't see a positive initiative like that German experiment getting any traction here. The preference here seems to be hysteria before facts. Depressing.

 

[py_megapixel]

My local Sainsburys have blocked off all means of exiting the store without buying anything.

Would be fine if they weren't so terrible at keeping items in stock.
I'm sure having people pushing through the checkout queues to get out is great for social distancing

 

[Westcountryman]

You have to take your facemask off to lock you fingers though

And prior to that to eat the food.

My local Sainsburys have blocked off all means of exiting the store without buying anything.

Would be fine if they weren't so terrible at keeping items in stock.
I'm sure having people pushing through the checkout queues to get out is great for social distancing

Perhaps you ought to complain to the manager.

 

[takno]

My local Sainsburys have blocked off all means of exiting the store without buying anything.

Would be fine if they weren't so terrible at keeping items in stock.
I'm sure having people pushing through the checkout queues to get out is great for social distancing

Isn't that fairly normal? Certainly the cheaper supermarkets seem to do it that way most of the time, and it's always been true of my local Tesco Metro

 

[py_megapixel]

Isn't that fairly normal? Certainly the cheaper supermarkets seem to do it that way most of the time, and it's always been true of my local Tesco Metro

Not in Sainsburys, Tesco Extra or Morrisons, who usually allow you to leave through the same door as the entrance without pushing through the checkouts.

 

[big_rig]

Don't under any circumstances let the coronaphobes anywhere near this article

Coronavirus: Two-metre rule is based on 'outdated' science as sneeze droplets can travel eight metres, study claims

High-risk environments such as nightclubs and bars should have stricter distancing rules, the British Medical Journal argues.

news.sky.com

Some scientists are seriously suggesting a social distancing rule of eight metres for "high risk" indoor settings such as bars and restaurants.

Complete codswallop of course - you might as well close down the whole hospitality sector, as making the limit eight metres would make most of it uneconomic.

Anyone ever heard of "catch it, kill it, bin it", which is the mitigation for indoor settings where a face mask is not required.

If you sneeze or cough, you can cover your face with your hands, as your hands fulfil the function of a face mask. You can then sanitise your hands and wipe down any surfaces you may have touched in the meantime.

If there really was a risk from people sneezing inside the pub, there would have been a much bigger increase in cases than that which has happened.

Out of interest I went and found the original piece. To me it is an example of what I guess we now call '(the) science' - essentially an opinion piece some people have written where they've gathered up a bunch of different sources which support their argument and added in a few pictures and a diagram which says it's risky to sit in silence outside without a mask, amongst other findings.

This seems different to what I understood at University what 'science' was, which seems to be more like they are doing in the German concert experiment where you test a hypothesis, or engage with and discuss differing views, or perhaps even say doing some analysis of how many outbreaks have been linked to pubs which have been opened for X weeks and fraternised by Y punters leading to an infection rate of Z per million etc.

Two metres or one: what is the evidence for physical distancing in covid-19?

Rigid safe distancing rules are an oversimplification based on outdated science and experiences of past viruses, argue Nicholas R Jones and colleagues Physical distancing is an important part of measures to control covid-19, but exactly how far away and for how long contact is safe in...

www.bmj.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

My local Sainsburys have blocked off all means of exiting the store without buying anything.

Many supermarkets only allow exit via the tills (e.g. the German ones). You just go past saying "I've not bought anything".

Not in Sainsburys, Tesco Extra or Morrisons, who usually allow you to leave through the same door as the entrance without pushing through the checkouts.

My Morrisons doesn't and never has, there are one-way gates on the entrance.

 

[py_megapixel]

My Morrisons doesn't and never has, there are one-way gates on the entrance.

Mine used to have those but took them out a few years ago.

 

[adc82140]

Every supermarket if been in in France has a "sortie sans achat" clearly signposted. Is it a legal requirement there? Can't think of any other reason why the signposting would be there otherwise.

 

[py_megapixel]

Every supermarket if been in in France has a "sortie sans achat" clearly signposted. Is it a legal requirement there? Can't think of any other reason why the signposting would be there otherwise.

Not being a French speaker, I assume that means "exit without purchase" does it?

 

[adc82140]

It does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess that probably makes the legal position very clear - if you pass through that clearly signed channel with something in your pocket or bag from the store you've clearly nicked it.

 

[adc82140]

I'd never considered that. But I think you're right. It takes away the "I forgot to pay for it" excuse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd never considered that. But I think you're right. It takes away the "I forgot to pay for it" excuse.

It's probably similar to the way that in Germany it's common to have a "virtual ticket barrier" - i.e. something obvious you must walk through which says on it that you must have a valid ticket to pass it - which encourages you to check yourself and renders you absolutely liable if you pass it without one (though I don't know if that's legally the case regarding French supermarkets). Typically it's either a prominent marking on the floor often with a sign at ceiling level, or a run of "fake barriers", i.e. metal things like Sheffield cycle stands which you walk between.

 

[adc82140]

At the risk of drifting off topic, back when I used to commute from Paddington with FGW as was, I once left my season ticket at work. As the train happened to leave from P8, I didn't realise this until a full revenue sting was announced on board. Fortunately they were understanding because I had sought them first and offered to buy a full price single. Had the train left from a barriered platform I'd have realised before I got on the train.

 

[talldave]

The plastic barriers used for pavement widening that I reported on in post #140 have mysteriously now disappeared. Traffic is back to normal, parking bays restored and pedestrians back to just the normal pavement. Which is all brilliant news, but I'm left asking myself "what changed?". Which particular statistic have the Council's little hitler brigade been monitoring in order to determine that occasional widened pedestrian space is no longer required? Or perhaps the claims for twisted ankles as pedestrians negotiated the kerbs and tarmac blobs on and off the carriageway have got too high?

 

[py_megapixel]

The plastic barriers used for pavement widening that I reported on in post #140 have mysteriously now disappeared. Traffic is back to normal, parking bays restored and pedestrians back to just the normal pavement. Which is all brilliant news

I must disagree.

If the barriers made walking more attractive, then removing them is presumably going to push people back into their cars.

Edit: Oops sorry, misunderstood your point. Personally I'd rather they widened the whole pavement rather than narrowing it, but whatever.

 

[trebor79]

Went in a small bakery. 5 staff and 1 other customer.
Young lad serving "Are you in the same bubble? Would you mind waiting outside then please?"
Absolutely ludicrous. Only the other customer masked, none of the staff working cheek by jowl masked, all from different families so mixing of "bubbles" anyway.
Actually yes I did mind, because it's facile.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Went in a small bakery. 5 staff and 1 other customer.
Young lad serving "Are you in the same bubble? Would you mind waiting outside then please?"
Absolutely ludicrous. Only the other customer masked, none of the staff working cheek by jowl masked, all from different families so mixing of "bubbles" anyway.
Actually yes I did mind, because it's facile.

If I'd been in that position I'd have walked out and simply taken my business elsewhere.

 

[DB]

Went in a small bakery. 5 staff and 1 other customer.
Young lad serving "Are you in the same bubble? Would you mind waiting outside then please?"
Absolutely ludicrous. Only the other customer masked, none of the staff working cheek by jowl masked, all from different families so mixing of "bubbles" anyway.
Actually yes I did mind, because it's facile.

Perhaps point out to them that yes, you are quite happy to take your business elsewhere if they are going to be ridiculous - and then do so.

 

[talldave]

Perhaps point out to them that yes, you are quite happy to take your business elsewhere if they are going to be ridiculous - and then do so.

Exactly this. Don't support the stupidity. A lost customer is lost for life. Not only that but another business gains a customer too.

 

[trebor79]

If I'd been in that position I'd have walked out and simply taken my business elsewhere.

Perhaps point out to them that yes, you are quite happy to take your business elsewhere if they are going to be ridiculous - and then do so.

Exactly this. Don't support the stupidity. A lost customer is lost for life. Not only that but another business gains a customer too.

Ah, but they make the most amazing malted tin loaf. It's literally the best bread I've ever eaten, and I wanted 3 loaves to bring home with us.
I recognised the young man as having staffed the beach cafe last year. He was a bit useless there too, day after day he'd sell all of the pasties before deciding it might be a good idea to put another batch in the oven, cue over an hours wait and lots of missed sales! On the days the owner was in there was never a pasty shortage!
I think he was doing it off his own back, the shop was conspicuously absent of any ridiculous notices about "distancing", "bubbles" or masks. They had rigged up a serving hatch onto the street for those who don't want to go in but I never saw anyone use it. And I'm sure there have been multiple customers in there over the past fortnight.

 

[py_megapixel]

Oh my, what a lot of whinging about being made to wait outside a shop.

It's not exactly the greatest hardship in the world, is it? Certainly nothing I'd describe as "over the top". Especially considering that it sounds like the person serving asked very professionally and politely, and had a good reason to do so.

 

[DB]

Oh my, what a lot of whinging about being made to wait outside a shop.

It's not exactly the greatest hardship in the world, is it? Certainly nothing I'd describe as "over the top". Especially considering that it sounds like the person serving asked very professionally and politely, and had a good reason to do so.

On it's own it's not major, but it's the cumulative impact of loads of petty restrictions and rules like this which have led to some of us completely running out of patience!

 

[takno]

Oh my, what a lot of whinging about being made to wait outside a shop.

It's not exactly the greatest hardship in the world, is it? Certainly nothing I'd describe as "over the top". Especially considering that it sounds like the person serving asked very professionally and politely, and had a good reason to do so.

Whinging about other people whinging in a thread which absolutely nobody is forcing you to read is quite meta