The new Northern franchise - what we know

[backontrack]

We already have a thread or two open about the Arriva Northern Rail franchise, but it's clear that there's a lot of stuff we haven't yet covered.

So I've created this thread. It's a place for cataloguing what we know about the 'improvements' and amendments Northern is making. The map is here: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

So here goes:

Bradford and the Calder Valley
An extra train per hour will run from Bradford Interchange to Manchester Airport via Hebden Bridge.

A new hourly service will run between Leeds and Chester. We do know that this service will run through Hebden Bridge, but whether it will serve Bradford or Dewsbury is currently unclear.

Similarly, a new hourly service will be provided between Southport and Leeds and/or Bradford.

It seems likely that at least one of these will serve Bradford to fill the quota of 3tph between Bradford and Manchester. If this is the case, two of the services will be extensions of existing ones. It is difficult to predict which way round the Chester and Southport services will be, but given the wording of the franchisement map, it seems more likely at present that Southport will be given a service to Bradford, while the Chester service will run to Leeds via Dewsbury.

We know that Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden will benefit from new services. This means that Rochdale, Littleborough and the other stations between Todmorden and Manchester (and also Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge) will retain their current frequency...with one exception.

Moston will see its 2tph frequency restored, meaning that it matches the other stations between Todmorden and Manchester. This is listed as part of the Liverpool/Manchester Airport services, so one of these will call here in all likelihood. It makes sense that services to Moston would also stop at Rochdale and Littleborough among others.

Therefore, it looks likely that Rochdale (and the other stops) will be skipped by one of the other services.

Bradford will have an hourly service to Hull and an hourly service to Nottingham via Wakefield Westgate. There will also be an hourly service from Halifax to Leeds, and the service from York to Blackpool North will remain.

Manchester, Merseyside, Cheshire and Lancashire
There will be 2tph between Manchester, Stockport and Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich and Greenbank.

Chester, Warrington Bank Quay, Newton-le-Willows and possibly Runcorn East, Frodsham and Earlestown will receive a new hourly service to Leeds via the Calder Valley.

Warrington Central, Birchwood and Liverpool South Parkway will lose their hourly service to Scarborough (which will instead run via Manchester Victoria), but this will be replaced by a semi-fast 1tph service between Liverpool Lime Street, Warrington Central, Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport, giving Warrington an aiport link as well as maintaining the status quo.

Services from Warrington Central to Liverpool Lime Street will stop at a new station: Warrington West.

The line from Liverpool to Manchester via Earlestown will see 2tph non-stop between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Victoria, doubling the frequency. These services will be operated by TPE and will run to Newcastle and Edinburgh respectively. The Northern services will also continue at 2tph. One of these will be a stopping service while the other will continue to Bradford Interchange via the Calder Valley.

Macclesfield, Cheadle Hulme, Poynton and Bramhall will receive a 2tph frequency to Manchester Piccadilly. New Mills New Town, Hazel Grove and intermediate stops will also benefit from 2tph and 4tph respectively into Manchester.

Blackburn, Darwen, Hall i' th' Wood and Bromley Cross will gain a 2tph off-peak frequency into Manchester via Bolton.

Trains will run from Wigan to Manchester via Atherton 4tph, from Wigan to Bolton 2tph, and from Wigan to Manchester Airport 1tph (replacing the existing TPE services when the Bolton/Chorley route is electrified).

The Hope Valley Line linking Manchester with Sheffield will have a full hourly timetable off-peak.

Ormskirk, Croston, Rufford and Burscough Junction will have a full hourly timetable off-peak.

Southport will retain 2tph to Manchester, with one of these trains extended to Leeds and/or Bradford via the Calder Valley. Like on all routes, Pacer trains will be replaced.

 

[northwichcat]

Extra services to Macclesfield, New Mills Newton and Greenbank. New Manchester Airport to Cumbria via Wigan services. Atherton line enhancements and Harrogate line enhancements. Significant Manchester to Liverpool changes.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just a small correction, the current Northern stoppers from Huddersfield to both Leeds and Manchester will be "temporarily" withdrawn, with stops at intermediate stations being made by TPE semi-fast services (Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds and Hull, each running hourly). This will reduce opportunities for local journeys within these sections but gives smaller stations a direct service to Leeds and Manchester. I also worry about loadings at peak times, as platform lengths mean only single 185s will operate these services, which will be carrying not only long-distance passengers from Hull to Manchester but also local passengers making trips like Batley to Mirfield.

The only Northern services remaining at Huddersfield will be the hourly Sheffield service, the hourly Leeds via Bradford service, and an hourly Castleford via Wakefield Kirkgate service (which replaces the current Wakefield Westgate service).

 

[Mallone]

It would appear from the new map that Carnforth now ceases to exist

 

[northernchris]

and an hourly Castleford via Wakefield Kirkgate service (which replaces the current Wakefield Westgate service).

This is an interesting service although it means Huddersfield loses its direct link to Westgate which is a useful connection if travelling towards London/the Midlands

 

[backontrack]

This is an interesting service although it means Huddersfield loses its direct link to Westgate which is a useful connection if travelling towards London/the Midlands

That surprises me, I have to say. A lot.

 

[J-2739]

This is an interesting service although it means Huddersfield loses its direct link to Westgate which is a useful connection if travelling towards London/the Midlands

I would have thought London commuters from Huddersfield will instead take TPE to Man Picc, then get VTWC to Euston, passing the Midlands also?

Nottingham to Leeds fast service to become Northern Connect route but to be re-routed via Westgate instead (missing Barnsley!!). The existing one to remain however (with same frequencies). New route from Leeds to Lincoln via Barnsley and Sheffield 'Northern Connect' to add 10 trains per day. Huddersfield to Sheffield gets full hourly service and not an odd mix of that and 2-hourly sevices(meaning an up of 3 tpd to 11tpd, compared to 8).

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Bradford will have an hourly service to Hull and an hourly service to Nottingham via Wakefield Westgate.

I didn't know about that one... Very interesting

 

[Kendalian]

It would appear from the new map that Carnforth now ceases to exist

They probably thought it was closed in 1970 :roll:

 

[bradford758]

Re: Bradford to Hull.
I don't remember this service being mentioned anywhere

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This is an interesting service although it means Huddersfield loses its direct link to Westgate which is a useful connection if travelling towards London/the Midlands

The idea is, I believe, that Huddersfield is due to gain an hourly direct service with VTEC, and in the meantime all journeys via Wakefield can also be made via Leeds. It tends to be older people that use Westgate rather than Leeds as it is usually a same platform change at Westgate in the Up direction whereas Leeds can be a daunting prospect to the unfamiliar. I do hope that the connections between the Featherstone rounders (which will run up the chord to Westgate) and the new Castleford service will be convenient for those passengers, though it will likely need a long walk from P1 to P3 at Kirkgate. In the long-term it'd be nice for the service to extend beyond Casvegas to York, but I'm not holding my breath on that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Re: Bradford to Hull.
I don't remember this service being mentioned anywhere

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

Nor do I, including in any official announcements.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would have thought London commuters from Huddersfield will instead take TPE to Man Picc, then get VTWC to Euston, passing the Midlands also?.

Surely Leeds and VTEC would be more obvious for London travellers?

 

[J-2739]

Surely Leeds and VTEC would be more obvious for London travellers?

I only just remembered that after posting, whoops!!

 

[Mugby]

Nottingham to Leeds fast service to become Northern Connect route but to be re-routed via Westgate instead (missing Barnsley!!). The existing one to remain however (with same frequencies). New route from Leeds to Lincoln via Barnsley and Sheffield 'Northern Connect' to add 10 trains per day. Huddersfield to Sheffield gets full hourly service and not an odd mix of that and 2-hourly sevices(meaning an up of 3 tpd to 11tpd, compared to 8).

The present journey time from Nottingham to Leeds is 2 hours which is not particularly attractive. A new fast service via Westgate with fewer stops south of Sheffield would be very welcome. It would also provide a much needed second hourly service between Sheffield and Leeds, the only really fast train at the moment being the XC service.

I like the Leeds - Lincoln idea but again, how many stops will it have? Will it mean Sheffield finally gets a fast service to Lincoln?

 

[WestRiding]

Is anything worthwhile going to happen on the Leeds to Doncaster/Sheffield services?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The present journey time from Nottingham to Leeds is 2 hours which is not particularly attractive. A new fast service via Westgate with fewer stops south of Sheffield would be very welcome. It would also provide a much needed second hourly service between Sheffield and Leeds, the only really fast train at the moment being the XC service.

I like the Leeds - Lincoln idea but again, how many stops will it have? Will it mean Sheffield finally gets a fast service to Lincoln?

I assume the Lincoln will run in the path of the current Nottingham service so will call at Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley and Meadowhall, with the odd peak call at Normanton. Isn't there already a Sheffield to Lincoln stopper? If so then I assume the Leeds service will be semi-fast. Not sure if there'll be much scope to reduce stops between Sheffield and Nottingham unless a Sheffield to Nottingham stopper is introduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is anything worthwhile going to happen on the Leeds to Doncaster/Sheffield services?

The Doncasters will get more modern rolling stock in the form of 333s, but I'm not aware of any other plans. There'll be no more Pacers though!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I assume the Lincoln will run in the path of the current Nottingham service so will call at Wakefield Kirkgate, Barnsley and Meadowhall, with the odd peak call at Normanton. Isn't there already a Sheffield to Lincoln stopper? If so then I assume the Leeds service will be semi-fast. Not sure if there'll be much scope to reduce stops between Sheffield and Nottingham unless a Sheffield to Nottingham stopper is introduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The Doncasters will get more modern rolling stock in the form of 333s, but I'm not aware of any other plans. There'll be no more Pacers though!

As much as my die hard love for pacers is, I will admit that the 14x's are unsuitable to sub for a 321. I presume that the crews that work the 321s will need only a minor traction refresh

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is anything worthwhile going to happen on the Leeds to Doncaster/Sheffield services?

Well the Bradford Service goes via Westgate so there is an additional fast service run by Northern.

 

[ainsworth74]

As much as my die hard love for pacers is, I will admit that the 14x's are unsuitable to sub for a 321. I presume that the crews that work the 321s will need only a minor traction refresh

Doubtful that they will need anything. Most, if not all, of them will already sign 333s!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The franchise agreement has provision for investigating various additional services (as well as provision for procuring more stock).
The service options mentioned (no specific details) are:
- Additional Hope Valley Services
- Newcastle-Middlesbrough via Stillington
- Leeds Selby
- Manchester Airport

There is also reference somewhere (might be in the TP one) to a "very frequent" Manchester-Liverpool service option.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The Doncaster to Grimsby service will be scrapped and Barton given to rubbish East Midlands.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The Doncaster to Grimsby service will be scrapped and Barton given to rubbish East Midlands.

Literally think it will make no difference!

 

[mrbluelips]

On the map, the Manchester to Sheffield (or vice versa) line has a dotted line to both Victoria and Piccadilly. Does this mean that some services will go into Victoria (they don't at present) or is it just highlighting the line into Manchester in general without be as specific as it should?

 

[TBY-Paul]

The franchise agreement has provision for investigating various additional services (as well as provision for procuring more stock).
The service options mentioned (no specific details) are:
- Additional Hope Valley Services
- Newcastle-Middlesbrough via Stillington
- Leeds Selby
- Manchester Airport

There is also reference somewhere (might be in the TP one) to a "very frequent" Manchester-Liverpool service option.

When will more details about the Newcastle-Middlesbrough service be released. Is it going to be along the Stillington route, or will that idea be quietly dropped.

 

[Mugby]

I think "Additional Hope Valley Services" will mean one or two extra stoppers, nothing more than that, certainly no increase in frequency, which I don't think would be warranted anyway.

But wasn't Hope Valley improvements supposed to be what the re-doubling of Dore Curve was about? - and that seems to have died a death!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Wasn't it a new or extended loop somewhere along the Valley to allow the local to go hourly throughout the week?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wasn't it a new or extended loop somewhere along the Valley to allow the local to go hourly throughout the week?

This was once upon a time part of Northern Hub. I believe it and the Dore redoubling are still active but for CP6.

Northern Hub appears to have merged into Northern Powerhouse which is unsurprisingly dominated by TPE North. I don’t expect them to neglect TPE south.

 

[Paul Duck]

When will more details about the Newcastle-Middlesbrough service be released. Is it going to be along the Stillington route, or will that idea be quietly dropped.

A feasibility study has to be done surrounding the Middlesbrough-Newcastle services by June 2017. This will look into whether the service can run via Stillington branch and the effects it could possible have for other TOCS when joining the main line at Ferryhill. If it can't it needs to set out what needs to be achieved to run the service via Stillington. Not sure what happens if running via Stillington is totally unfeasible.
So in other words another year at least yet.

 

[Roose]

New Manchester Airport to Cumbria via Wigan services.

Reinstating services formerly via Bolton before Furness and Windermere bore the brunt of the consequences of DMU shortages. ("Cumbria Better Connected" campaign led by Messrs Farron and Woodcock refers")

 

[Eric]

Which is the train that will go Bradford -Manchester Airport?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We already have a thread or two open about the Arriva Northern Rail franchise, but it's clear that there's a lot of stuff we haven't yet covered.

So I've created this thread. It's a place for cataloguing what we know about the 'improvements' and amendments Northern is making. The map is here: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

So here goes:

Bradford and the Calder Valley
An extra train per hour will run from Bradford Interchange to Manchester. This will likely operate via Todmorden as services through Huddersfield (except the hourly service to Manchester Victoria) will be run by TPE.

A new hourly service will run between Leeds and Chester. We do know that this service will run through Hebden Bridge, but whether it serves Bradford or Dewsbury is currently unclear.

Similarly, a new hourly service will be provided between Southport and Leeds and/or Bradford.

It seems likely that at least one of these will serve Bradford to fill the quota of 3tph between Bradford and Manchester. If this is the case, two of the services will be extensions of existing ones. It is difficult to predict which way round the Chester and Southport services will be, but given the wording of the franchisement map, it seems more likely at present that Southport will be given a service to Bradford, while the Chester service will run to Leeds via Dewsbury.

We know that Halifax, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden will benefit from new services. This means that Rochdale, Littleborough and the other stations between Todmorden and Manchester (and also Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge) will retain their current frequency...with one exception.

Moston will see its 2tph frequency restored, meaning that it matches the other stations between Todmorden and Manchester. This is listed as part of the Liverpool/Manchester Airport services, so one of these will call here in all likelihood. It makes sense that services to Moston would also stop at Rochdale and Littleborough among others.

Therefore, it looks likely that Rochdale (and the other stops) will be skipped by one of the other services.

Bradford will have an hourly service to Hull and an hourly service to Nottingham via Wakefield Westgate. There will also be an hourly service from Halifax to Leeds, and the service from York to Blackpool North will remain.

Manchester, Merseyside, Cheshire and Lancashire
There will be 2tph between Manchester, Stockport and Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich and Greenbank.

Chester, Warrington Bank Quay, Newton-le-Willows and possibly Runcorn East, Frodsham and Earlestown will receive a new hourly service to Leeds via the Calder Valley.

Warrington Central, Birchwood and Liverpool South Parkway will lose their hourly service to Scarborough (which will instead run via Manchester Victoria), but this will be replaced by a semi-fast 1tph service between Liverpool Lime Street, Warrington Central, Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport, giving Warrington an aiport link as well as maintaining the status quo.

Services from Warrington Central to Liverpool Lime Street will stop at a new station: Warrington West.

The line from Liverpool to Manchester via Earlestown will see 2tph non-stop between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Victoria, doubling the frequency. These services will be operated by TPE and will run to Newcastle and Edinburgh respectively. The Northern services will also continue at 2tph. One of these will be a stopping service while the other will continue to Bradford Interchange via the Calder Valley.

Macclesfield, Cheadle Hulme, Poynton and Bramhall will receive a 2tph frequency to Manchester Piccadilly. New Mills New Town, Hazel Grove and intermediate stops will also benefit from 2tph and 4tph respectively into Manchester.

Blackburn, Darwen, Hall i' th' Wood and Bromley Cross will gain a 2tph off-peak frequency into Manchester via Bolton.

Trains will run from Wigan to Manchester via Atherton 4tph, from Wigan to Bolton 2tph, and from Wigan to Manchester Airport 1tph (replacing the existing TPE services when the Bolton/Chorley route is electrified).

The Hope Valley Line linking Manchester with Sheffield will have a full hourly timetable off-peak.

Ormskirk, Croston, Rufford and Burscough Junction will have a full hourly timetable off-peak.

Southport will retain 2tph to Manchester, with one of these trains extended to Leeds and/or Bradford via the Calder Valley. Like on all routes, Pacer trains will be replaced.

There will all be welcome additions to BRADFORD.

I mean how can the 7th biggest city in the country have such poor rail links.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Doubtful that they will need anything. Most, if not all, of them will already sign 333s!

You mean Doncaster crews sign 333s? That is something I did not know. When was the last time a 333 managed to go on holiday and escape to Doncaster?