The next five classes to be withdrawn

[yorksrob]

Interesting that some think the 150s will go before the 142/143/144s:

"Interesting" is one way to put it. Down right infuriating would be another

 

[Royston Vasey]

Interesting that some think the 150s will go before the 142/143/144s

That is what confuses me too. A reasonable refurbishment and 150s are akin to shorter diesel versions of 317s/319s that most seem to agree will not be next to be withdrawn.

Some 150s are in a bad way internally, but that is a spurious reason to withdraw them, unless there are mechanical reasons to replace them. Whereas the Pacers are simply bad trains, not ok trains that haven't been looked after!

 

[dk1]

class 142, 143, 60, 31, 313

Unless im mistaken several 313s are shortly to join Southerns fleet for the Coastway routes allowing current newer units to bolster London services.

 

[GNERman]

Unless im mistaken several 313s are shortly to join Southerns fleet for the Coastway routes allowing current newer units to bolster London services.

I know that, i've seen the photos but they haven't said for how long...

I presume they will be axed fairly soon because of their age and spare parts as well as 378's are now here which are a lot better...

 

[Ivo]

Not sure what the longest journey time is in the UK on trains without a toilet. Quite a few in London around the hour mark. Won't count Cockfosters - Heathrow on the tube for 2 reasons. 1 very few people choose to do it and 2. due to its high frequency you could get off at many of the stations on route with a toilet to relieve yourself and continue without too much delay.

What about Shenfield Metro services that extend to or from either Southminster (like they did in First Great Eastern days) or Southend Victoria (like the early morning ones do)?

Interesting that some think the 150s will go before the 142/143/144s

"Interesting" is one way to put it. Down right infuriating would be another

A harsh, yet genuine, dose of 21st Century railway reality... Profit comes first. Thus, the cheap ---- shall continue to the bitter end.

 

[A60K]

Though if the point is no second hand imports, then that is true.

That was my point, yes - replying to the Bulgaria (87s), Iran (141s) and Canada (Nightstar) exports mentioned.

I know we've imported a lot of new stock recently, obviously all designed to our loading gauges. The history of importing actually goes back quite some time - 100 years ago the early Piccadilly Tube stock was built in Hungary and France!

 

[tbtc]

You would be lucky to find any stock from overseas (apart from Ireland) that will fit within our vehicle loading gauges, even on the Great Western

True, but other countries have accepted our trains (to their different loading gauge). Presumably it only works one way round though...

 

[royaloak]

Because our loading gauge is smaller than everyone elses, our trains fit their loading gauge, theirs dont fit ours!

 

[Helvellyn]

Next Class to be withdrawn will be the 421s.

 

[Ivo]

Next Class to be withdrawn will be the 421s.

No! Don't say that! DON'T SAY THAT!!!!!

 

[Murph]

The safety criteria is interesting, people were calling for them to go with the mk1s as they are not better structually then the mk1. (Look at todays railway UK this month and the photo of one visiting Liverpool Lime Street to see what I mean). We have just been lucky that all the accidents with them have been ECS

"Interesting" puts it rather mildly, IMHO. For example, compare the results of the 1991 Severn Tunnel crash (155 into the back of an HST) with the 1999 Winsford crash (87+Mk3s into the back of a 142). Personally, looking at the pictures of the 87 parked inside the 142 (on top of the frame), I'd rather walk than take a Pacer over a line which is also used by real trains.

 

[Ivo]

"Interesting" puts it rather mildly, IMHO. For example, compare the results of the 1991 Severn Tunnel crash (155 into the back of an HST) with the 1999 Winsford crash (87+Mk3s into the back of a 142). Personally, looking at the pictures of the 87 parked inside the 142 (on top of the frame), I'd rather walk than take a Pacer over a line which is also used by real trains.

Ah, how lovely. We got ourselves a new anti-Pacer member! Welcome!

 

[Murph]

Ah, how lovely. We got ourselves a new anti-Pacer member! Welcome!

Thanks

For the record, I'm not 100% anti-Pacer — they do serve some purpose, just have been clearly demonstrated to be inappropriate and unsafe for running on lines with high speed heavy trains. As a solution to keeping some lightly used branch and suburban lines open and viable, I can't really argue that they served a useful purpose, and that the design was basically a success for that purpose.

Having said that, after seeing the results of Winsford, allowing them to continue to share the same tracks as heavy rail (without exceptional protection measures) is bordering on gross negligence, in my opinion. If they were strictly confined to essentially light-rail or metro duties, with reasonable steps to protect them from heavy rail (speed restrictions, additional separation, and/or segregated infrastructure), I'd have relatively little issue with them being allowed to continue until properly life-expired (or sufficient Sprinters cascaded down to their routes).

 

[royaloak]

but the point you are missing about Winsford is, although the body detached from the chassis, the actual passenger compartment was intact!

 

[generalvegitable]

what about the incident when the engine randomly fell off? if that happened in london, the whole fleet of them would be withdrawn to be checked, and most likely be replaced, but as pacers run mostly up north it "doesn't matter"

 

[Murph]

but the point you are missing about Winsford is, although the body detached from the chassis, the actual passenger compartment was intact!

Photo: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/375946.stm)

That doesn't really look like "intact" to me...

 

[royaloak]

Thats the cab and door area gone, the main seating area starts from the first intact window, considering the speed of the impact I thing it did pretty good, compare that with the front coach on the Turbo at Ladbroke Grove, the whole coach was destroyed!

 

[Voyager 2093]

If I had my way it would be 142,143,144,150 and 313

 

[Ivo]

Time for a poll, methinks (not that I'm going to set it up!):

What would you choose to be the next class to withdraw from commercial service? 142/3/4, 150, 153, 313/4/5, 421 :cry:, 507/8, 43, 90, Other

[or something like that anyway]

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Photo: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/375946.stm)

That doesn't really look like "intact" to me...

The biggest issue with this incident was the fact that the body was pushed along the underframe by a considerable distance, with the potential for any passengers on board to lose lower limbs in the process.

The lead team member from the HSE, who was involved in the investigation banned their family from travelling on Pacers after this incident, and that ban remains in place today.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thats the cab and door area gone, the main seating area starts from the first intact window, considering the speed of the impact I thing it did pretty good, compare that with the front coach on the Turbo at Ladbroke Grove, the whole coach was destroyed!

But you have to compare the impact speeds between the 2 accidents here, Ladbrooke grove the both trains were moving towards each other. Here the pacer was stationary and loco hauld train was slowing down. It is like me comparing the train that hit the buffers a Charing Cross not so long ago with the Pacer that ran away at Lime Street. I haven't got a photo of the Lime Street crash but saw it in this months todays Railway UK. The pacer didn't hold together very well at all. Anyone sitting in the first seating bay (I know they are just fold down) would have suffered badly in Winsford.

 

[Murph]

… I haven't got a photo of the Lime Street crash but saw it in this months todays Railway UK. The pacer didn't hold together very well at all. …

142059 stored after Lime Street

 

[Failed Unit]

142059 stored after Lime Street

Thanks, I guess I have left myself open for the "most of the passenger compartment is in tack" line as well

 

[chris89]

Would like to see it be the Pacer series, Most likely the 150's will be as well.

I can't imagine they will yet replace the HST's as this saying goes 'if it ain't broke, Don't fix it' As they have got plently off life left, and who knows we might see a Hybrid with a Powercar converted to OHL if GWML is Electrified.

 

[6024]

142,143,150,hst,

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

If I had my way it would be 444, 450 & 455, all as comfortable as a park bench made of concrete.

Unfortunately the FGW HST seats aren't much better either, but still preferable to the 444, 450 & 455's; The Reading lines 458s are more comfortable than any of them, shame about the clientèle along certain sections of the route though.

 

[Murph]

I'm rather surprised to see quite a few folks suggesting that HSTs should be withdrawn relatively soon. I do know they can't go on forever in top tier services, and IEP will firmly push them off the top tier, but it seems to me that there's plenty of useful life left in them, particularly now that the power cars have been rebuilt. Surely it would make more sense to cascade them down to supplement or replace some DMU/DEMU services until we've had our money's worth out of the power car rebuilds? As far as I can see, a properly refurbished HST set is every bit as good and capable as they were when first introduced, possibly even better than new due to our long engineering experience with them. Am I failing to spot some flaw that requires their full withdrawal in the medium term?

On the other hand, who's going to be the first to operate a full HST set in preservation? (IC Swallow livery, please)

 

[Royston Vasey]

I'm rather surprised to see quite a few folks suggesting that HSTs should be withdrawn relatively soon. I do know they can't go on forever in top tier services, and IEP will firmly push them off the top tier, but it seems to me that there's plenty of useful life left in them, particularly now that the power cars have been rebuilt. Surely it would make more sense to cascade them down to supplement or replace some DMU/DEMU services until we've had our money's worth out of the power car rebuilds? As far as I can see, a properly refurbished HST set is every bit as good and capable as they were when first introduced, possibly even better than new due to our long engineering experience with them. Am I failing to spot some flaw that requires their full withdrawal in the medium term?

On the other hand, who's going to be the first to operate a full HST set in preservation? (IC Swallow livery, please)

The issue may be more with the coaches than the power cars. Something to do with disability access requirements IIRC. Corrosion is another issue that was a headache during recent refurbishments.

And my point was that theyre saleable elsewhere in Europe or beyond.

 

[Murph]

The issue may be more with the coaches than the power cars. Something to do with disability access requirements IIRC. Corrosion is another issue that was a headache during recent refurbishments.

And my point was that theyre saleable elsewhere in Europe or beyond

How difficult would it be to convert 1 coach per set to meet RVAR requirements? As for corrosion, it will be a real shame if it's reached excessive levels, but I can see there could be some issues there.

As far as foreign use goes, I sincerely hope that they don't end up rotting their final years away in some uncaring foreign land — no way for an engineering icon to end its days. On the other hand, I suppose the VP185 rebuilds might be a cheap way for Australia to life-extend and expand their XPT fleet (although they do seem to lack commitment and enthusiasm for railway investment at political levels).

 

[tbtc]

I suppose one "solution" with HSTs would be to invest in a "neverending" refurbishment, whereby the power car engines are upgraded, then the coaches spruced up, then electric power cars introduced/ new coaches - rather than buying a brand new everything/ discarding partly working units