The next five classes to be withdrawn

[gchst]

314, 43, 143, 144, 142

the class 43s (hsts) will not be withdrawn for about another 10-15 years apparantly

 

[Drsatan]

the class 43s (hsts) will not be withdrawn for about another 10-15 years apparantly

They'll be withdrawn in about 2020 from the GWML when that line is electrified and the IEPs are introduced. Even then, they'd still have at least 10 years of life left, so they could be deployed on secondary routes such as Manchester-Leeds/Sheffield just as the Deltics were in their final days.

I believe that the class 90s, even though they're only just over 20 years old, will be unfortunately withdrawn. Most of the remaining class 90s are concentrated on London-Norwich services, which will probably go over to EMU operation due to the EU's disability access regulation which means the 90s and Mk3s will have to go by 2020. DB & Freightliner own a few, and the remainder are used on the Caledonian Sleeper services (which may not be in operation by 2020).

The class 313s and 508s will be next to go due to their age, although they're still perfectly adequate trains. The 142s/143s/144s MUST go because of their age, ****ty ride quality, and their (lack of) crash-worthiness. However, because DafT cancelled the order for 1300 carriages following the announcement of its electrification program, the North might be stuck with the Pacers for a few more years yet.

 

[yorksrob]

the class 43s (hsts) will not be withdrawn for about another 10-15 years apparantly

Phew - thats a relief

In reference to other previous posts, wouldn't the technitians have sorted out any corrosion during the last refurb?

The class 313s and 508s will be next to go due to their age, although they're still perfectly adequate trains..

Surely there's no hurry - afterall plenty of units last 40 years and they're still some way off that yet.

 

[Fincra5]

Well the 313s and 508 still have at least 10years left in them.

 

[Royston Vasey]

They'll be withdrawn in about 2020 from the GWML when that line is electrified and the IEPs are introduced. Even then, they'd still have at least 10 years of life left.

Most of the remaining class 90s are concentrated on London-Norwich services, which will probably go over to EMU operation due to the EU's disability access regulation which means the 90s and Mk3s will have to go by 2020.

Why would the HST Mk IIIs be any different to the LHCS Mk IIIs?

 

[starrymarkb]

to the EU's disability access regulation which means the 90s and Mk3s will have to go by 2020. .

Nothing to do with the EU, the UK RVAR is far more stringent then the UIC regs.

 

[156499]

If you mean WSMR then I doubt they would have ever got paths if they used HSTs, a 67 would thrash it from a standing start and up to speed.

An HST is faster off the mark than a 67 as there are two engines, 67's take there time to reach speed, even with load 4 up the hill to Corrour they take there time to reach 40mph

 

[The Planner]

Id like to see a race between the two, Id bet the 67 isnt far behind on the flat.

 

[Murph]

Nothing to do with the EU, the UK RVAR is far more stringent then the UIC regs.

The key questions for the Mk3s in my reckoning are:

1. What issues do they currently have for RVAR?
2. Would it be possible mostly comply with RVAR by modifying 1 coach per rake to be an accessable coach?
3. How difficult/expensive would such modifications be?
4. Are there any other pressing issues which would cause problems with their continued use until the basic structure is life-expired?
5. How much life is left in the basic structure? (not counting components which are expected to be renewed over the life of the stock)

I say "mostly comply with …" above, as there's nothing to stop the powers that be allowing technical exceptions to the rules where the spirit of the rules has been met (i.e. a pragmatic compromise to save the nation some money and provide maximum value from past investments). It ought to be a political win, if feasible — a combination of "Maximising the value of the nation's existing assets", "Unprecedented accessibility for the railways", and "Boost for UK rail engineering jobs". They could maybe even put themselves well ahead of RVAR target dates by having accessible Mk3 rakes much sooner than when they are finally displaced by new stock.

 

[gregh]

A 92 hauled the HOBC up and down the WCML in a test a while back without breaking into a sweat.

Does there not need to be a current isolation when the HOBC is operating then? I would have thought that there would be, especially if the MFS wagons were to be topped-up on site....

 

[The Planner]

It moved it from Willesden up to Northampton and back, when its moved into the actual work site it has to be done by a 66, so two engines are needed in that scenario.

 

[Aictos]

With regards to Class 86s hauling freight, is there any reason they do instead of more of the Class 92s being used instead?

 

[The Planner]

Freightliner have the 86s dont they ?? DBS have all the 92s unless Im mistaken.

 

[Drsatan]

DBS have all the 92s unless Im mistaken.

I think SNCF own a few

 

[GNERman]

Freightliner have the 86s dont they ?? DBS have all the 92s unless Im mistaken.

FL are the main users of 86's now, but there is also the ACLG's 86101 on the main line as well as Electric Tractions 86701 and 702.

DBS have 25 class 90's and FL have 10. Of the DBS ones quite a few are stored unserviceable at Crewe EMD.

On the class 92 front, DBS have a lot of them with Europorte 2, part of Eurotunnel, for use in the Channel Tunnel. Of note, GBRf have 3 at the moment...

 

[Dreadnought]

On the class 92 front, DBS have a lot of them with Europorte 2, part of Eurotunnel, for use in the Channel Tunnel. Of note, GBRf have 3 at the moment...

The 3 allocated to GBRf are Europorte 92s and are in the GBRf pool to enable driver training to take place between Dollands Moor and Wembley for Europorte. Believe that later this year they are going to start a service to DIRFT.

 

[GNERman]

the 3 allocated to gbrf are europorte 92s and are in the gbrf pool to enable driver training to take place between dollands moor and wembley for europorte. Believe that later this year they are going to start a service to dirft.

dirft???

 

[Dreadnought]

dirft???

Daventry International RailFreight Terminal.

 

[GNERman]

Daventry International RailFreight Terminal.

Ah right, i've just heard of it being called Daventry Terminal, hmmm, a 92 in First Barbie, ah hem, no, it probably won't happen...

 

[gregh]

It moved it from Willesden up to Northampton and back, when its moved into the actual work site it has to be done by a 66, so two engines are needed in that scenario.

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess dependant on the noves required within the worksite / T3, and the direction the train would be exiting from, a 66 at either end would be needed, which may very well make the hauling to site of the HOBC by Class 92 a bit pointless. But the point you make about them being capable of hauling heavier freight trains along the WCML is ably illustrated.

 

[The Planner]

Not pointless when you have try to weave the HOBC inbetween other trains on the slows to the worksite it isnt ! its a nightmare.

 

[GospelOak117]

Wikipedia suggests that the class 315's may be replaced from 2012 as they will be "life expired". I cant see that happening as 32 years is hardly past it in my eyes, 42 maybe. These are decent hard working trains which despite being a little uncomfortable are ideally suited to their current role and should have a bit more life left in them.

This idea may be as a result of the main Liverpool St.-Shenfield route being included in Crossrail, but what of the Liverpool St.-Chingford/Enfield Town/Cheshunt/Southminster and Romford-Upminster lines that the 315 monopolise also?

 

[Ivo]

Wikipedia suggests that the class 315's may be replaced from 2012 as they will be "life expired". I cant see that happening as 32 years is hardly past it in my eyes, 42 maybe. These are decent hard working trains which despite being a little uncomfortable are ideally suited to their current role and should have a bit more life left in them.

This idea may be as a result of the main Liverpool St.-Shenfield route being included in Crossrail, but what of the Liverpool St.-Chingford/Enfield Town/Cheshunt/Southminster and Romford-Upminster lines that the 315 monopolise also?

Firstly, a controversial point: Romford to Upminster should never have been cut off from the Ockendon route. I know that there is a slight problem called the District Line in the way, but there must be some way of pulling it off without great expense or a flat junction.

Anyway, I do agree with them maybe being life-expired come Crossrail, but in practice they will probably be sent to some other OHLE-using TOC instead, probably by the name of Northern Rail. I could get into a lot of trouble with people I know in person for saying this, but I would actually recommend that some go to c2c and they operate the Rainham route, thus freeing up some 357s for an improved Southend service, maybe even on the Victoria route (thus displacing some 321s to, if I had my way, nearby Pig's Bay ). As for the WAGN lines, however, I'm not so sure. I honestly can't see them being withdrawn any time soon. The routes you mention are so short that they are suitable for them, especially the Chingford route.

And lastly, just to clarify, the Southminster route does see a lot of 321s. Unlike during FGE days. I suppose that, were they to increase the Victoria route to a 15 frequency (thus maintaining 4tph at Wickford and Billericay), a 315 could run the Crouch Valley Line on its own. If run efficiently, one unit could just about do it (I would suggest a quick turn around at Southminster though, say three minutes).

 

[Tom C]

If it were my choice it would be 377's and 390's but seeing as we are talking about the real world I would think that apart from the obvious CIG's (which in my mind actually went about 4 years ago) it would be 60's and 314's (although with all the electrification they could yet get stay of execution).

As for 313's well FCC have no plans to get rid of them, they have plans to get more and Southern will use them until they get yet more dreary 377's.

455's have just all been refurbished at SWT and Southern and are fine for what they do although Southern do have plans to put yet more 377's on Metro work when the 313's and 508's come to town (if it were my choice, put the PEP's in London) but I have seen nothing to suggest that thats nothing more than bulking the fleet up rather than replacing. 319's have got at least 3-5 years to toil at FCC before they go up North where they will no doubt work perfectly reasonably for at least another 5.

460's are supposed to go to SWT although some vehicles will be stripped for spares, if the plan actually happens

Wikipedia suggests that the class 315's may be replaced from 2012 as they will be "life expired". I cant see that happening as 32 years is hardly past it in my eyes, 42 maybe. These are decent hard working trains which despite being a little uncomfortable are ideally suited to their current role and should have a bit more life left in them.

312's were taken out of service when the oldest was just 28 years old despite being perfectly serviceable purely because they had slam doors. With all the crying out for stock that goes on with the TOC's these days, that decision not to just put door locks on looks a big daft. I think they also didn't fall into the hysteria with 400's and crashworthyness because they were Mk2 bodyshells as were 310's IIRC.

 

[GospelOak117]

Firstly, a controversial point: Romford to Upminster should never have been cut off from the Ockendon route. I know that there is a slight problem called the District Line in the way, but there must be some way of pulling it off without great expense or a flat junction.

Anyway, I do agree with them maybe being life-expired come Crossrail, but in practice they will probably be sent to some other OHLE-using TOC instead, probably by the name of Northern Rail. I could get into a lot of trouble with people I know in person for saying this, but I would actually recommend that some go to c2c and they operate the Rainham route, thus freeing up some 357s for an improved Southend service, maybe even on the Victoria route (thus displacing some 321s to, if I had my way, nearby Pig's Bay ). As for the WAGN lines, however, I'm not so sure. I honestly can't see them being withdrawn any time soon. The routes you mention are so short that they are suitable for them, especially the Chingford route.

And lastly, just to clarify, the Southminster route does see a lot of 321s. Unlike during FGE days. I suppose that, were they to increase the Victoria route to a 15 frequency (thus maintaining 4tph at Wickford and Billericay), a 315 could run the Crouch Valley Line on its own. If run efficiently, one unit could just about do it (I would suggest a quick turn around at Southminster though, say three minutes).

Wow there seems to be a huge lack of love for the 321's on here. These have always been my favourite second gen units. Nice and loud too, maybe thats what the majority of people dont like....

 

[Ivo]

I think you'll find it's just me... Having lived in Southend for 20 years, which do you think I would prefer: 312s/357s or 321s? Even my sister isn't very keen on 321s, and she would probably say that they aren't that different to 313s (which, internally, they aren't). Having said that, she would probably say the same between 180s and 395s. One of which is quite nice (if irritating courtesy of its TOC), the other of which would do well to run to Southend - specifically, Pig's Bay.

 

[Withered Arm]

hey dont knock the HST its a great unit, remember them when they started running into Cornwall, they look great sound great and ride great. I loved hearing those Paxman valenta engines. How many of todays modern unit will still be running in say 2050.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Dont knock HST they are superb examles ok British work, i love em.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hey dont knock the HST its a great example of British engineering, will todays units last so long

 

[daccer]

I have to be honest and say that I cant see anything being withdrawn for the foreseeable future. We are facing lean times ahead with austerity budgets the name of the game. Buying brand new fleets of trains is going to be a long way down the pecking order especially as such a lot of cash has been committed in CP4 to major infrastructure work.

IEP is already much in doubt and there is a general slowing of orders for new trains. The cancellation of the 200 or so diesel vehicles last year means I think that we may have to wait some time to see another diesel unit built after the current 172 build is done. This means that only electrification will allow a diesel cascade and eventual withdrawal of Pacers etc. The current plans for electrification and also for HS2 coulkd very easily fall into the same funding pit as the IEP. Even if we do get the MML and GWML electrified we are looking at years before we see it ripple down to other lines with vehicle cascades.

My view is that from now on very few vehicles will get scrapped. Any electric units that become spare will get stored until such time as electrification catches up and needs the extra capacity. The last variable is obviously passenger growth and new lines. If growth comes back at anywhere like the rates experienced since 2000 then just to keep the status quo will require every vehicle to be made available. The chance of writing off old units for scrap will not be there - an old unit is better than no unit. LHCS is a short term solution but do we have that much spare coaching stock anymore? For me it is lean times ahead for scrapmen and as soon as DBS have finished disposing of their redundant locos I can see the scrapmen struggling to find anything to cut up for some years.

 

[sprinterguy]

I agree that I can't see any major class withdrawals occuring in the near future.
With that in mind, the five I'd put money on being withdrawn in the next decade or so is:

60-Unfortunately
91-But only if IEP actually happens
143-Though they may just cascade to Northern
153-(First of the Sprinter classes to go, but not any time soon)
313

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that I can't see any major class withdrawals occuring in the near future.
With that in mind, the five I'd put money on being withdrawn in the next decade or so is:

60-Unfortunately
91-But only if IEP actually happens
143-Though they may just cascade to Northern
153-(First of the Sprinter classes to go, but not any time soon)
313

153's before 142's ?