The state of the Dartmouth Steam Railway

[davetheguard]

I visited the Paignton to Kingswear line yesterday on a through special from London; the first time for a number of years that I have travelled over the route.

I have to say that I was rather shocked at the state of it: overgrowing vegetation at Goodrington Sands station in particular; faded and peeling paint on station buildings and canopies; excessive, cheap-looking, and inauthentic advertising hoardings erected all over platforms; and a station buffet with overpriced down market food. Overall, a general feel that it's not being "loved".

And although our special through train was fully-booked with every seat taken, the steam trains we passed didn't seem to be carrying very many passengers at all; only two people sitting in the Devon Belle observation car, for instance.

What is going on? I don't know the status of the railway as it stands at the moment, and it seems to have had a lot of changes to its name; are all staff paid? Are there any volunteers at all, or have they all left for the Dart Valley?

The sea air and scenery are as wonderful and splendid as ever of course; although like the West Highland Line some of the lineside vegetation is in dire need of a bit of a cut back; in particular, the ever growing number of trees that are restricting views of the Dart.

Can there be a more scenic end to any railway journey than the arrival in Kingswear, with Dartmouth just across the river? Surely, this line should have everything going for it; so it was doubly sad to see it, to this observer's eyes at least, looking decidedly run down.

 

[Shrub Hill]

never travelled on it even though my family live close by. from what i can see it is run purely as a money making exercise. They have there own liveries, never tried to maintain any kind of authenticity and as you say, for what it is, it seems massively overpriced. it is there business model of course and they can do as they feel. These are only my opinions and I'm sure the volunteers work just as hard as anywhere else but i would personally prefer to spend my hard earned on the south devon railway when i am in the area!

 

[richw]

Its a commercial operation, also operating buses and boats in the area.

Their website has a jobs section advertising full time and part time salaried positions

 

[Maximillian]

In defence of the railway, yes it is run as a business but they do work hard to provide a good service to customers and attract a lot of tourists to the area.

In the past few years the railway has put many of it's rolling stock back in to their original liveries (e.g. Lydham Manor, Devon Belle, D7535 & Mrk 1s)

In terms of the line side shrubbery, I believe they are currently in the middle of cutting it all back as I have seen some of the workers cutting it in the past week.

Most of the staff are paid but there are a few volunteers, but is this really such a bad thing? At least they never have to worry about staff shortages compared to true 'volunteer' railways who have in the past have had to cancel services especially on gala days as they haven't got enough floatplane crews.

 

[323235]

I did think that Goodrington Sands station could do with a bit of work and signage but I don't think anything else looks particularly worse than any other pres railway. The pub at Kingswear made it look more run down at that end than anything on the P&D. The signal box looked outstanding though.

 

[Greenback]

In defence of the railway, yes it is run as a business but they do work hard to provide a good service to customers and attract a lot of tourists to the area.

In the past few years the railway has put many of it's rolling stock back in to their original liveries (e.g. Lydham Manor, Devon Belle, D7535 & Mrk 1s)

In terms of the line side shrubbery, I believe they are currently in the middle of cutting it all back as I have seen some of the workers cutting it in the past week.

Most of the staff are paid but there are a few volunteers, but is this really such a bad thing? At least they never have to worry about staff shortages compared to true 'volunteer' railways who have in the past have had to cancel services especially on gala days as they haven't got enough floatplane crews.

The line has had a fair few owners and an interesting history since it was closed by BR. But if they never have to worry about staff shortages because they have paid staff, maybe they should be running a few franchises?

I don't think it can be argued that anything that is mostly run by volunteers will be 'loved' more than one staffed mainly by paid employees. Volunteers will have a real love for what they do, far in excess of someone who is paid to turn up, as a volunteer commits their time to something that interests them.

I haven't been on the railway since 1991, and then it was quite tatty with high fares. I can't remember what company was running the services then, but they didn't seem to be linked with open top buses and river cruises in those days. I don't think the company's focus is on the steam trains these days, though

In my opinion, the focus is on attracting tourists rather than railway enthusiasts, by offering a 'day out' that appeals to a wide range of visitors. Whether that is right or wrong will be seen in their accounts, I always get the feeling when I look at their website that the steam trains are not high on their list of priorities.

 

[Aldaniti]

In the context of a preserved railway, you only have to look at a very successful and well run operation in a popular tourist area - the North Yorkshire Moors Railway - to see what a wasted opportunity the Dartmouth Steam Railway represents. Probably better to view it purely as a commercial tourist attraction rather than a preserved railway to avoid disappointment.

 

[Greenback]

Quite! A commercial tourist attraction is exactly what it is. The fact that it's a railway is a coincidence! I was pretty disappointed back in 1991, and I prefer the South Devon Railway, which really has the feel of a GWR branch (not that I'd know!) and some lovely people helping to run it.

Perhaps in the future ownership and focus might change. For now, I assume that, commercially at least, the line is doing well enough.

 

[Aldaniti]

Quite! A commercial tourist attraction is exactly what it is. The fact that it's a railway is a coincidence! I was pretty disappointed back in 1991, and I prefer the South Devon Railway, which really has the feel of a GWR branch (not that I'd know!) and some lovely people helping to run it.

Perhaps in the future ownership and focus might change. For now, I assume that, commercially at least, the line is doing well enough.

Indeed - perhaps I should re-phrase my last sentence:

Probably better to view it purely as a commercial tourist trap rather than a preserved railway to avoid disappointment.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed - perhaps I should re-phrase my last sentence:

Probably better to view it purely as a commercial tourist trap rather than a preserved railway to avoid disappointment.

Even better! It's not just my disappointment twenty odd years ago that means I have no wish to return. When I look at the website it's a bit of a mess compared to others. As was mentioned earlier, when you look at it you don't get any sense that the railway is loved or cared for, there seems little enthusiasm for that side of things.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Even better! It's not just my disappointment twenty odd years ago that means I have no wish to return. When I look at the website it's a bit of a mess compared to others. As was mentioned earlier, when you look at it you don't get any sense that the railway is loved or cared for, there seems little enthusiasm for that side of things.

I remember travelling on the Dartmouth Steam Railway back in the early 2000s as a little one, and being much more interested in the HSTs at Paignton than the steam engines. Looking back through the photographs, even the stations had a few weeds on the platforms and peeling paint.
In comparison, even tiny affairs like the Lavender Line have a feeling of being significantly more cared for.

Oh, and any website that automatically plays a soundbite gets an annoyed little growl from me.

 

[Aldaniti]

Even better! It's not just my disappointment twenty odd years ago that means I have no wish to return. When I look at the website it's a bit of a mess compared to others. As was mentioned earlier, when you look at it you don't get any sense that the railway is loved or cared for, there seems little enthusiasm for that side of things.

The last time I turned up it (September 2011) it was like a ghost town. The shop was open, selling the usual tourist-type offerings - boxes of fudge made in Scotland with 'Present from Dartmouth' stamped on it, that sort of thing - but there were no staff around, nobody to take my money off me, in fact it was hard to detect signs of any trains running despite the place clearly being open. I walked away bemused.

 

[Monty]

I visited the line about five or so years ago and left with the same feelings expressed by many in this thread. All the stations could do with a lick of paint and a tidy up, the station and sidings at Goodrington Sands were overgrown back then too. The coaches weren't much better but all the steam locomotives were in very commendable condition however. But as already mention it's not really a preserved railway, it's a purely commerical venture.

 

[sidmouth]

Actually I visited mid-week about 3 weeks ago, and the train I travelled on was packed. Yes it is a commercial operation but I thought the scenery and views from the train were fantastic and the stations (maybe with the exception of Goodrington Sands) appeared Ok and well tended. I had nothing to fault with my visit except for a one engine in steam / 2 hour frequency despite the packed trains.

I suspect that Saturdays will be quite, which would be the standard "change over day" for those tourists staying in the area.

 

[Greenback]

I'm glad you enjoyed your visit sidmouth, but I feel I have to point out that the scenery and view are outside the control of the company operating the line!

I'm sure the line is doing well commercially, which make sit even more of a shame that it seems so uncared for in comparison with other steam railways.

 

[talltim]

At least they never have to worry about staff shortages compared to true 'volunteer' railways who have in the past have had to cancel services especially on gala days as they haven't got enough floatplane crews.

Floatplane?

 

[Greenback]

Autocorrect or autocomplete, I should think!

 

[B&W]

In defence of the railway, yes it is run as a business but they do work hard to provide a good service to customers and attract a lot of tourists to the area.

In the past few years the railway has put many of it's rolling stock back in to their original liveries (e.g. Lydham Manor, Devon Belle, D7535 & Mrk 1s)

In terms of the line side shrubbery, I believe they are currently in the middle of cutting it all back as I have seen some of the workers cutting it in the past week.

Most of the staff are paid but there are a few volunteers, but is this really such a bad thing? At least they never have to worry about staff shortages compared to true 'volunteer' railways who have in the past have had to cancel services especially on gala days as they haven't got enough floatplane crews.

Very much agree. Line is well run, knows what it wants, knows what its customers want and keeps to that model. As a result pays it way with money over -how many other lines do that. We used the line a couple of years ago as non enthusiasts and were very impressed. Overall the railway was clean, efficient, with much investment in engineering and infrastructure for the long term. Noted the engine was run efficiently so safety valves never lifted - no enthusiastic overcoaling such as you get everywhere else. Stock was even washed at Lunchtime.
Others may sneer, but I suspect the line will here long after many 'preserved' lines have folded due to lack of volunteers, wasting money on too many engines and coaches or as a result of squabbling between themselves.

Brian

 

[davetheguard]

Very much agree. Line is well run, knows what it wants, knows what its customers want and keeps to that model. As a result pays it way with money over -how many other lines do that. We used the line a couple of years ago as non enthusiasts and were very impressed. Overall the railway was clean, efficient, with much investment in engineering and infrastructure for the long term. Noted the engine was run efficiently so safety valves never lifted - no enthusiastic overcoaling such as you get everywhere else. Stock was even washed at Lunchtime.
Others may sneer, but I suspect the line will here long after many 'preserved' lines have folded due to lack of volunteers, wasting money on too many engines and coaches or as a result of squabbling between themselves.

Brian

As the original poster, I can only make the following comment. At the end of the day, I arrived at the railway with an expectation: preserved railway station = vintage signage; flowerbeds and hanging baskets; smartly presented staff and well maintained buildings. And that expectation arose because I've seen it at other preserved railways: from Bodmin to Bridgnorth; from Loughborough to Levisham.

That was my expectation; my expectation wasn't met. In fact, the vast majority of Network Rail stations look better in my opinion than Goodington Sands appeared to; although not many have such good views from the platform!

So that was a shock. But perhaps my expectation wasn't reasonable? I don't know. But that's why I posted the thread in the first place (and no "sneering" intended); to discover what others thought on what is, after all, a forum for discussion!

 

[B&W]

As the original poster, I can only make the following comment. At the end of the day, I arrived at the railway with an expectation: preserved railway station = vintage signage; flowerbeds and hanging baskets; smartly presented staff and well maintained buildings. And that expectation arose because I've seen it at other preserved railways: from Bodmin to Bridgnorth; from Loughborough to Levisham.

That was my expectation; my expectation wasn't met. In fact, the vast majority of Network Rail stations look better in my opinion than Goodington Sands appeared to; although not many have such good views from the platform!

So that was a shock. But perhaps my expectation wasn't reasonable? I don't know. But that's why I posted the thread in the first place (and no "sneering" intended); to discover what others thought on what is, after all, a forum for discussion!

You were not sneering Dave but plenty of others do, I have heard comments and read moaning about the modern signalling, coaches with names, the locos all named when they were not under BR, railway has no soul etc. The point being missed by all these detractors that it is not a preserved railway and does not pretend to be.
It very successfully aims to cater for mass family market that wants to hear a bit of a chuff at the front, whose kids like names on the coaches and who do not care about pretty stations or up and down signals. I had never traveled on it without the staff being friendly, smart and caring and in this aspect it has beaten several other railway hands down.

B

 

[455driver]

As the original poster, I can only make the following comment. At the end of the day, I arrived at the railway with an expectation: preserved railway station = vintage signage; flowerbeds and hanging baskets; smartly presented staff and well maintained buildings. And that expectation arose because I've seen it at other preserved railways: from Bodmin to Bridgnorth; from Loughborough to Levisham.

That was my expectation; my expectation wasn't met. In fact, the vast majority of Network Rail stations look better in my opinion than Goodington Sands appeared to; although not many have such good views from the platform!

So that was a shock. But perhaps my expectation wasn't reasonable? I don't know. But that's why I posted the thread in the first place (and no "sneering" intended); to discover what others thought on what is, after all, a forum for discussion!

It isnt a 'preserved railway station' though, it is a tourist railway where its main market is Mr and Mrs ordinary punter and their 2.4 children and as long as the station looks something like they imagine it would have been back in the day and there is a steam loco on the front of the train then that is it, they are not really interested in the rail enthusiast in the same way as a proper 'preserved railway' is.

 

[theblackwatch]

One thing the railway shows it isn't a preserved railway is the lack of rusting hulks waiting renovation or undergoing an extremely long-winded restoration. The railway runs on sufficient stock to operate its services, and that's about it. Some might even argue that none of the stuff which the Dartmouth Steam Railway and River Boat Company owns is 'preserved'.

 

[455driver]

Some might even argue that none of the stuff which the Dartmouth Steam Railway and River Boat Company owns is 'preserved'.

It isnt 'preserved' as most of it has been modified in one way or another to suit use on a tourist line.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, it's definitely not a preserved railway and doesn't pretend to be one. It's a tourist attraction. I don't want to sneer at it, but I am not minded to make a visit anytime soon as I've been once and was disappointed. By all I've read here and elsewhere and judging by their website, it would still be a disappointment and I would prefer to visit other lines.

As I said earlier, they seem to be successful enough so they must be doing something right.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Is the Pub/hotel at the end of the Platform at Kingswear still closed. It was very handy having that there. The used to do great Sunday Lunches and it was more convenient to eat there rather than Dartmouth which is always busy.

 

[davetheguard]

Is the Pub/hotel at the end of the Platform at Kingswear still closed. It was very handy having that there. The used to do great Sunday Lunches and it was more convenient to eat there rather than Dartmouth which is always busy.

There is also a very nice pub literally just a few steps away up the hill from Kingswear station; the Ship Inn. 15th C building, overlooking the Dart, listed in the Good Beer Guide with up to six real ales and food (lunches & evenings). Real local scrumpy cider too on the day we visited.

You just turn left out of Kingswear station while the masses head off for Dartmouth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It isnt a 'preserved railway station' though, it is a tourist railway where its main market is Mr and Mrs ordinary punter and their 2.4 children and as long as the station looks something like they imagine it would have been back in the day and there is a steam loco on the front of the train then that is it, they are not really interested in the rail enthusiast in the same way as a proper 'preserved railway' is.

But aren't the majority of passengers on say, the North York Moors or the Swanage Railway "Mr & Mrs Ordinary Punter" too? I'm sure they are; after all they're in well-known holiday areas, just like the Dartmouth Steam Railway is. But they manage to feel looked after.

I'm grateful that the railway didn't disappear when B.R. closed it, and that it is still possible to enjoy the splendid scenery and visit Dartmouth by train. I want a successful railway that pulls the punters in, and keeps the line in operation. But first impressions count, and potential passengers CAN be put off. In short, I think that the railway could both improve the look of the railway and be more profitable as a result.

 

[Greenback]

But aren't the majority of passengers on say, the North York Moors or the Swanage Railway "Mr & Mrs Ordinary Punter" too? I'm sure they are; after all they're in well-known holiday areas, just like the Dartmouth Steam Railway is. But they manage to feel looked after.

Undoubtedly there are plenty of those on such lines, but they probably attract more steam buffs and railway enthusiasts because of the way they are operated.

On my last Swanage trip, judging by the conversations on the platform, the vast majority of the male passengers were rail enthusiasts. some were accompanied by partners or children of varying degrees of enthusiasm. My friends two year old, though, was probably the biggest train fan there!

On the NYMR, there was also a number of older gentlemen earnestly discussing locomotives, but there were a few more non train fans by the sound of things, including an entertaining young couple opposite us who were far more interested in each other than the scenery or the train!

The bottom line is that some liens engender more support from certain sections of society than other lines. Those railways that demonstrably care about their line and their infrastructure, will always have a head start over those that don't. And those that are expanding rather than standing still, will also be more popular!

I'm grateful that the railway didn't disappear when B.R. closed it, and that it is still possible to enjoy the splendid scenery and visit Dartmouth by train. I want a successful railway that pulls the punters in, and keeps the line in operation. But first impressions count, and potential passengers CAN be put off. In short, I think that the railway could both improve the look of the railway and be more profitable as a result.

I can't disagree with that, but the decisions will be made by the owners, and if they are happy with the numbers, they won't care.

I must admit that if I were to visit Dartmouth again I'd probably opt for the bus from Totnes!