The 'Technologically Unskilled' at TVM Only Stations

[cjmillsnun]

When a comparable point was reached in another thread, it was suggested that the aged person(s) may benefit from appointing a financial Power of Attorney - i.e. someone who would have the authority to make financial decisions and actions on their behalf and/or under their instructions. It was this thread : Railcard (not valid without signature)

I would suggest that for anyone who has reached their 80's and already has a caring frind or relative nearby providing practical assistance, then this should be considered immediately.

and many elderly people would not be happy doing this.
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No they would not. The Disability Discrimination Act has been revoked, and banks are not under a legal obligation to issue chip & signature cards. Many do so as a matter of good customer service.

The DDA was repealed (not revoked) and replaced by the Equality Act. Banks are still bound to supply Chip and Sig cards
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I think the proposal to abolish cheques (which I personally feel should have gone ahead, to be replaced with bank transfers on the German model - if you *must* use paper fill in a slip and take to *your* bank - much cheaper to run!) was just the start.

Neil

fill in a form and take to your bank... That'll work when bank branches are being closed left, right and centre :roll: (sorry for the OT)

 

[Bletchleyite]

fill in a form and take to your bank... That'll work when bank branches are being closed left, right and centre :roll: (sorry for the OT)

Post it to your bank, then (my bank has about 10 branches, none of which are anywhere near me, so on the rare occasion I get a cheque I post it off to their Freepost address for it to be deposited). The point is that the complexity and cost of the clearing system is removed because you don't have to deal with processing physical cheques - the transfer becomes electronic at the first point of receipt.

Germany have done it for years, and it is very effective. And I really don't wish as a customer to be paying for people who won't use technology, so any workaround should in my view be the cheapest option possible. (I'm happy to pay for those, e.g. disabled, who *can't* use technology, but I don't buy the argument "I've never needed to use these new fangled computers so I won't start now" - and I certainly don't want to be paying for it - happy to retain the cheque if those using them pay a fee for them to fully cover the cost of such an antiquated method of banking, for instance).

Neil
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And I actually find your posting quite objectionable, because you seem totally unable to recognise that there are many people in this country who are aged, or technically unable to use computers

There are a very large number of "silver surfers" who have used their ample available time to learn how to use technology. Some of them no doubt post to this group. They aren't who I'm talking about.

*Nobody* who does not have a disability is unable to use a computer (I'm talking very basic tasks such as Web browsing to access public services) when provided with the appropriate training and support. I'm certain it will be cheaper to provide that than to provide alternative methods of access in the short to medium term.

Tablets such as iPads are even easier to use than regular computers. A 4G tablet with an external keyboard provides a modern "Minitel" device, almost (as France had for years).

It also seems that you do not realise that people have to live outside URBAN areas, (not just cities), as believe it or not, we in the countryside also produce things that you urbanites might actually need, like food.

I bet most current active farmers do their business accounts by computer these days. So I think that's not really an argument.

Don't know how: provide subsidised support and training
Can't afford: provide subsidised equipment
Disability: provide whatever is necessary as a reasonable adjustment per the law
Won't: own problem, in my book.

Neil

 

[island]

The DDA was repealed (not revoked) and replaced by the Equality Act. Banks are still bound to supply Chip and Sig cards

I have strong reason to believe this is incorrect. Would you please be good enough to quote the section of the Equalities Act (the act itself rather than non-binding interpretations thereof, or I will accept a judicial interpretation thereof from the High Court or above) which you believe puts this requirement on a bank, as I have good reason to believe that a number of banks in the UK do not issue signature-preferring chip cards either on request (without substantial hoop-jumping) or at all. If such a provision genuinely exists, those firms will no doubt want to be apprised of it and to take appropriate action against the negligent members of their legal teams who have ill-advised them.

 

[jon0844]

Plenty of people do indeed learn new technology, but where do you go to learn a TVM before you encounter one? And of course the right type, given the different UIs (because the railway didn't set down a standard that every machine had to adhere to)?

Maybe TOCs should have training days, give out leaflets or have video tutorials on their websites?

 

[185]

It does, but certainly at my company and I would be surprised if it wasn't the case with others, we are instructed to use discretion with the elderly.

Same at mine lots of discretion used, however, I did see recently a lady fined (not by me, although I would in this case) for not using the TVM, simply because three days running, she'd told three different RPIs the same "I'm 72, I'm not using any stupid machine." - at 7.45 in the morning peak, wearing a well concealed work outfit.

On day four, this particularly nasty, horrid woman was fined.

Day 5 she bought a ticket.

 

[Llanigraham]

Tablets such as iPads are even easier to use than regular computers. A 4G tablet with an external keyboard provides a modern "Minitel" device, almost (as France had for years).

I bet most current active farmers do their business accounts by computer these days. So I think that's not really an argument.

Don't know how: provide subsidised support and training
Can't afford: provide subsidised equipment
Disability: provide whatever is necessary as a reasonable adjustment per the law
Won't: own problem, in my book.

Neil

You really don't get rural living, do you Mr Williams!!

4G signal?? You are joking aren't you? There are vast areas around here with no mobile phone access of any kind, and there are also plenty of areas that still can't get adequate internet access as they are too far from the Exchange.

And who is going to provide all these subsidised services, equipment and support? If you haven't noticed local Councils are having to drastically reduce services across the board due to cuts in central support.

Where do you live? Perhaps you would like to tell us?

 

[Bletchleyite]

4G signal?? You are joking aren't you? There are vast areas around here with no mobile phone access of any kind, and there are also plenty of areas that still can't get adequate internet access as they are too far from the Exchange.

Then alternatives can be found.

And who is going to provide all these subsidised services, equipment and support? If you haven't noticed local Councils are having to drastically reduce services across the board due to cuts in central support.

I think you miss the point - I strongly believe that within 10 years it will be more feasible to provide these services on a subsidised basis (possibly by some kind of regulation on business, possibly from taxpayers) than to provide the "old fashioned" ways of doing business in rural areas.

For example, it might well be cheaper to provide free Kindles than a rural mobile library service, though the latter could perhaps take on a new role of being an IT access and training suite.

Also, people who don't do IT are "dying out" - quite literally. By the time I'm a pensioner, most or all pensioners will know how to use IT. When it becomes a small minority, providing services the old way becomes totally non-viable.

Where do you live? Perhaps you would like to tell us?

Milton Keynes - I've never made a secret of it. I don't think it's relevant, though, as this is remarkably similar to the "if you don't do job X you can't criticise someone doing it" argument, which in my book is a complete fallacy.

Neil

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I have strong reason to believe this is incorrect. Would you please be good enough to quote the section of the Equalities Act (the act itself rather than non-binding interpretations thereof, or I will accept a judicial interpretation thereof from the High Court or above) which you believe puts this requirement on a bank, as I have good reason to believe that a number of banks in the UK do not issue signature-preferring chip cards either on request (without substantial hoop-jumping) or at all. If such a provision genuinely exists, those firms will no doubt want to be apprised of it and to take appropriate action against the negligent members of their legal teams who have ill-advised them.

And banks are renowned for always following the law!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same at mine lots of discretion used, however, I did see recently a lady fined (not by me, although I would in this case) for not using the TVM, simply because three days running, she'd told three different RPIs the same "I'm 72, I'm not using any stupid machine." - at 7.45 in the morning peak, wearing a well concealed work outfit.

On day four, this particularly nasty, horrid woman was fined.

Day 5 she bought a ticket.

Yet another case not dissimilar from "if you argue with the policeman, you're getting booked, if you apologise you might get let off"

Neil

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Same at mine lots of discretion used, however, I did see recently a lady fined (not by me, although I would in this case) for not using the TVM, simply because three days running, she'd told three different RPIs the same "I'm 72, I'm not using any stupid machine." - at 7.45 in the morning peak, wearing a well concealed work outfit.

On day four, this particularly nasty, horrid woman was fined.

Day 5 she bought a ticket.

To which the RPI reply could have been: "I'm 40, I'm not letting any stupid customers travel on my trains"

 

[route:oxford]

As another option, now connectivity is spreading, might a videophone-based virtual ticket office callable from the ticket machine help in this sort of case? Press the help button, talk to the person, they remotely issue the ticket and take payment by controlling the TVM, confirm it's all OK and then sign off.

Neil

Something very similar is being rolled out at the Nationwide BS in smaller branches that don't justify a full-time mortgage person.

You go into a regular interview room with screen, camera, simple scanner and printer and have the mortgage interview with someone based in Swindon.

Pop any documents that you need to evidence on the scanner during the conversation (all controlled remotely). Sign documents as they come off the printer, and, the member of staff in Swindon will order tea and coffee to be delivered from the office kitchen.

The conversation is videoed and retained with documents for security and can be used by the FSA in evidence against the member of staff if the product was missold or by the BS if it becomes clear that the borrower was dishonest.
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And banks are renowned for always following the law!

Can you list the banks that refuse to issue chip & signature cards?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Can you list the banks that refuse to issue chip & signature cards?

I refer to banks in the colloquial sense (i.e. regulated financial institutions)and their general institutional attitude towards the law, regulation and their customers - mis-selling of mortgages, PPI, endowments, pensions, investment products, exchange rate fixing, money laundering, sanctions busting and so on - if you want more details and specific examples, read Private Eye.

Never actually knew chip and signature existed as an alternative - except when PIN fails and the retailer takes the risk - I have done this once (and I'm neither old nor have any disabilities) when I simply couldn't remember my PIN and after 3 attempts the card locked.

To be honest, anything which requires a user to remember a PIN or password is a potential problem seeing as how you are supposed to have a different one for everything. One PIN and a couple of passwords most people can manage - but count up how many you have nowadays - banking, on-line retailing, e-mail, forums (spell check won't accept fora, what is the correct plural Latin scholars amongst you), work, home and leisure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never actually knew chip and signature existed as an alternative

Only in most cases because you *need* one e.g. having a disability or similar, not because you *want* one.

To be honest, anything which requires a user to remember a PIN or password is a potential problem seeing as how you are supposed to have a different one for everything. One PIN and a couple of passwords most people can manage - but count up how many you have nowadays - banking, on-line retailing, e-mail, forums (spell check won't accept fora, what is the correct plural Latin scholars amongst you), work, home and leisure.

For anything involving passwords/PINs for use on a PC, tablet or phone rather than while you're walking around (and even then, if you use it on your phone) a password manager like Keepass is a very good option.

Neil

 

[Baxenden Bank]

For anything involving passwords/PINs for use on a PC, tablet or phone rather than while you're walking around (and even then, if you use it on your phone) a password manager like Keepass is a very good option.

Neil

I don't know the specifics of Keepass, but in themselves such things worry me - having all my eggs in one basket - if I forget my single password for Keepass, I'm stuffed and if someone discovers or hacks my account, I'm similarly stuffed as they can access and steal my whole life!

This raises another issue, relevant to the OP - the constant and breakneck speed of changes in technology. There are people who are technophobic, there are people who are plain stubborn and there are those who follow the latest developments with great excitement. Then there is the majority who know enough to get by, learning as they go along.

For example, I clearly have a computer of some kind to access this forum, but I do not have a pad, tablet or smart thingimibob. I might want to expand / upgrade but try getting simple, unbiased, non-upselling advice on what each of the preceding gadgets does (or more importantly doesn't do) in return for my hard earned cash. Retailer websites generally don't have much info - even for PC's and laptops (some technical specs but rarely what software is pre-loaded or more importantly not pre-loaded so I end up incurring extra unexpected costs after buying the product I thought was going to do the job!!). A certain amount of pre-knowledge is expected of the customer by the retailer. So I don't upgrade and get left behind - a bit like the people who say 'I'm not using that new fangled computer thing' in fact!

I imagine many people would be a bit unnerved by having a video interview with the mortgage seller.

 

[route:oxford]

Never actually knew chip and signature existed as an alternative.

Then why did you criticise "the banks" for refusing to provide this service when it's been there since the start of Chip&Pin. It's this kind of comment that makes it harder for vulnerable people who need the service to understand that it is there for them!

I don't know the specifics of Keepass, but in themselves such things worry me - having all my eggs in one basket - if I forget my single password for Keepass, I'm stuffed and if someone discovers or hacks my account, I'm similarly stuffed as they can access and steal my whole life!

Will you remember you had a life?

This raises another issue, relevant to the OP - the constant and breakneck speed of changes in technology. There are people who are technophobic, there are people who are plain stubborn and there are those who follow the latest developments with great excitement. Then there is the majority who know enough to get by, learning as they go along.

There isn't really a "breakneck" change in technology - there hasn't been for quite some time. Technology nowadays is marginal changes. Bit smaller, bit faster, bit dull.

For example, I clearly have a computer of some kind to access this forum, but I do not have a pad, tablet or smart thingimibob. I might want to expand / upgrade but try getting simple, unbiased, non-upselling advice on what each of the preceding gadgets does (or more importantly doesn't do) in return for my hard earned cash. Retailer websites generally don't have much info - even for PC's and laptops (some technical specs but rarely what software is pre-loaded or more importantly not pre-loaded so I end up incurring extra unexpected costs after buying the product I thought was going to do the job!!). A certain amount of pre-knowledge is expected of the customer by the retailer. So I don't upgrade and get left behind - a bit like the people who say 'I'm not using that new fangled computer thing' in fact!

What do you really need to know? It's either going to be Apple or Microsoft Windows 8. You choose whether you want to have the Office licence then decide what protection software you use. It's not that hard.

I imagine many people would be a bit unnerved by having a video interview with the mortgage seller.

It's no different to doing it in person or over the phone. If you don't like the way a company sells a product and meets the strict legislative requirements on recording the sale - go somewhere else.

Are you essentially saying that Rail Companies shouldn't consider this as an alternative for ticket sales for vulnerable people at unstaffed locations - because you'd be unnerved at seeing the person who is selling you the ticket on a screen?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know the specifics of Keepass, but in themselves such things worry me - having all my eggs in one basket - if I forget my single password for Keepass, I'm stuffed and if someone discovers or hacks my account, I'm similarly stuffed as they can access and steal my whole life!

I use Keepass every time I use my PC, therefore I won't be forgetting the password. As Keepass is a piece of software that sits on the PC (very widely used including by many large businesses, so any security issue would be quickly exposed) and not an online service, hacking is unlikely, though I suppose it is a minor risk that a virus could be written to acquire .kdb files it is unlikely to hit you if you ensure you keep your anti-virus up to date (as you should anyway).

Keepass will use a key of any length, so you can use a sentence as a password. This is much more secure than "bqois93wjs!!:@Q$(" because it has more bits, believe it or not. So remembering odd combinations of letters is not necessary.

For example, I clearly have a computer of some kind to access this forum, but I do not have a pad, tablet or smart thingimibob. I might want to expand / upgrade but try getting simple, unbiased, non-upselling advice on what each of the preceding gadgets does (or more importantly doesn't do) in return for my hard earned cash. Retailer websites generally don't have much info - even for PC's and laptops (some technical specs but rarely what software is pre-loaded or more importantly not pre-loaded so I end up incurring extra unexpected costs after buying the product I thought was going to do the job!!). A certain amount of pre-knowledge is expected of the customer by the retailer. So I don't upgrade and get left behind - a bit like the people who say 'I'm not using that new fangled computer thing' in fact!

The best way to deal with that is to try devices out if you know someone or in-store. This is also something that could be taught. And to access things like Government online services, simplified sites can be provided (gov.uk is very well done in this regard - no fluff, no complexity - it just steps you through things one step at a time on a simple, large-print, low-graphics black and white site).

I imagine many people would be a bit unnerved by having a video interview with the mortgage seller.

Possibly. But if you want services in person, you'll have to travel (or live in a large city) because increasingly people are happy with these things in order for a cheaper service to be provided.

FWIW, I find the service offered by my bank which I use wholly online except for paying in cheques which occurs by post to be far superior than queueing in a branch. In the end if companies think branch banking is profitable they will provide it (Metro Bank?) but if it isn't they won't.

As for TOCs the user interface on ticket machines in the UK is appalling, but that doesn't go to say one couldn't be designed that was easier to use and still sold a wide range of tickets. Perhaps a step by step wizard type thing would be a good way.

Neil

 

[DaveNewcastle]

One of my pleasures this Christmas has been watching the utter commitment by NW and others on this thread to the blinding light of a shiny new digital future, one in which everything anyone ever needs in life is provided by Logica, Atos, Steria or one of the other few preferred software suppliers to government. A commitment so familiar in previous visions of a bright new technological future in which 'the old ways' are swept away.

I've enjoyed the entertainment as much as re-reading Orwell, Huxley or Zamyatin or of the real-world revolutions which informed them (and some which have occurred subsequently). Entertainment arising from opinion which in itself has utterly disregarded past attempts to achieve the imposition of similar technological conformity.

Thanks for the entertainment.

 

[jon0844]

You really don't get rural living, do you Mr Williams!!

4G signal?? You are joking aren't you? There are vast areas around here with no mobile phone access of any kind, and there are also plenty of areas that still can't get adequate internet access as they are too far from the Exchange.

And who is going to provide all these subsidised services, equipment and support? If you haven't noticed local Councils are having to drastically reduce services across the board due to cuts in central support.

Where do you live? Perhaps you would like to tell us?

Even after 3G was introduced back in the early 2000s, the geographic coverage today (which is rather important if you're talking about farms) is still quite pathetic. 4G is even more insignificant. 2G is much more widespread, but is not only slow but also totally saturated with really slow backhaul connections, so you'll get speeds of 0.01Mbps at best from some sites.

Sure, the long term plan will be for O2 (which has a special licence it got at a discount) to provide a level of 4G coverage by the end of 2018 (I think) that can provide a minimum speed of 2Mbps indoors - but that's still pathetic given the fact that many people will by then be enjoying 4G data speeds (potentially) of well over 500Mbps, and fixed broadband might be up to 1Gbps and beyond by then.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Then why did you criticise "the banks" for refusing to provide this service when it's been there since the start of Chip&Pin. It's this kind of comment that makes it harder for vulnerable people who need the service to understand that it is there for them!



Will you remember you had a life?



There isn't really a "breakneck" change in technology - there hasn't been for quite some time. Technology nowadays is marginal changes. Bit smaller, bit faster, bit dull.



What do you really need to know? It's either going to be Apple or Microsoft Windows 8. You choose whether you want to have the Office licence then decide what protection software you use. It's not that hard.



It's no different to doing it in person or over the phone. If you don't like the way a company sells a product and meets the strict legislative requirements on recording the sale - go somewhere else.

Are you essentially saying that Rail Companies shouldn't consider this as an alternative for ticket sales for vulnerable people at unstaffed locations - because you'd be unnerved at seeing the person who is selling you the ticket on a screen?

I didn't,
No,
Yes,
No, but those options aren't laid out on-line,
I do just that, often
No.

Finally, conduct yourself in a civil manner at all times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you essentially saying that Rail Companies shouldn't consider this as an alternative for ticket sales for vulnerable people at unstaffed locations - because you'd be unnerved at seeing the person who is selling you the ticket on a screen?

I think it has a lot of potential as a way of handling a complicated fares system on a complicated network which is increasingly overcrowded (the main reason why the guard coming through just doesn't work any more).

Neil

 

[TUC]

Another issue is that of accessibility of TVMs-and indeed the ticket vending websites-for people with severe visual impairments. If the lowest fares are only available via websites and TVMs are not adapted to be accessible to visually impaired people then there is surely a straightforward case of disability discrimination to be answered.

 

[jon0844]

The lack of group save and super off peak tickets from some TVMs didn't seem to get FCC into any trouble.

Both were eventually added to all machines, but for some time people using a machine would have potentially paid more than they had to.

 

[RJ]

To throw a different perspective in, some people genuinely struggle with TVMs. Once, I closed the ticket office for a few minutes. I walked out to where the ticket machines are, to see one man, beetroot red, shouting "Why the bloody hell isn't this selling a Zone 2 to 6 Travelcard???" People who want a return to somewhere like North Greenwich or the Zone U1, find the the machine tells them there are no fares found. They come to the ticket office, ask for exactly that and are given a Travelcard. Plus when I worked at a London Terminal, that perennial problem with the TVMs selling tickets that people couldn't use from the station as they didn't include a Cross London Transfer.

Although working at an outer London station, many people buy a Day Travelcard, thousands of people don't actually know that a Travelcard is called a Travelcard. As such, they struggle with TVMs as they don't know what they're looking for. Many have tried TVMs, given up and come to me. Then ask for any of the following things;

"That ticket that gets you to around London, on the tubes and buses"
"Day Saver", "Day Rover" or "Day Rider"
"A return to London"
"A return to London with tube/with Zone 1 and 2"
"A tube ticket"
"Bus and tube"
"A CapitalCard"
"A ticket"
"A return ticket"
"A railcard"
"Zone 1 and 6"
"All zones"
"Off Peak"
"Go and back"
"£8.90"

Some people just put £10 in the tray and look at me without saying anything.

This translates into a genuine difficulty when people go to use a TVM. Discretion is often shown when RPIs are made aware that the ticket office is shut. Which is good, because whilst a great deal of people can work with TVMs, the reality is that a great deal can't. The railway struggles with the art of teaching where tickets are concerned - so people who can't work TVMs shouldn't be punished for it IMO.

 

[Bevan Price]

There are a very large number of "silver surfers" who have used their ample available time to learn how to use technology. Some of them no doubt post to this group. They aren't who I'm talking about.

*Nobody* who does not have a disability is unable to use a computer (I'm talking very basic tasks such as Web browsing to access public services) when provided with the appropriate training and support. I'm certain it will be cheaper to provide that than to provide alternative methods of access in the short to medium term.

Tablets such as iPads are even easier to use than regular computers. A 4G tablet with an external keyboard provides a modern "Minitel" device, almost (as France had for years).


Neil

I hope you or your relatives never encounter the problem, but some people have serious memory problems. They may remember perfectly what happened 50 years ago, but are incapable of remembering what they were told 5 minutes ago. This can happen at all ages, but is more common in the elderly - it can sometimes be a symptom of early stages of Alzheimers & other medical conditions. They can still function adequately in basic situations, but they will not be able to remember PIN numbers, or learn how to use computers, ticket machines, etc., without assistance from another person.

 

[drbdrb]

This site which is also from the Payments Council says "Chip and signature cards are not currently accepted at self-service check-out machines in places like supermarkets and petrol stations."

ASDA petrol stations, which are completely unmanned, take them, as do Tesco self scan tills, and the Co-Op, and Sainsbury, and Waitrose...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I hope you or your relatives never encounter the problem, but some people have serious memory problems.

Indeed. But the raising of awareness among the public in general is currently something of a priority. For those who have neither the time nor the inclination to undertake appropriate training before they offer advice or make decisions affecting those with dementia, there are a large number of short, informal and free-of-charge sessions being offered by the Alzheimer's Society across England: see http://alzheimers.dementiafriends.org.uk/websession

I hope that those on here who are so eager to make proposals for the benefit of the sector will, at least, have taken this informal level of induction, if not accredited training.

 

[island]

Some people just put £10 in the tray and look at me without saying anything.

That's going to be a different conversation from Friday...

One wonders why all these people don't simply get an Oyster card.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I tend to show discretion at any TVM only station and sell the full available range simply as a gesture of good customer service towards my passengers. I tend to view the TVM as simply being there for the regular passengers on busy services where I would otherwise be unable to reach them, rather than as a substitute for a properly staffed booking office or Guard/Revenue staff onboard.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

<snip>


Is this because they avoid using them, or because there is indeed a disability of some kind developing? I'll give you that I am not elderly, but I have an appalling short term memory. However if I use a PIN repeatedly I do remember it.

Neil

can't or won't is often the issue

that said inability to learn / make new memories can be a sign of developing pathology.

 

[hassaanhc]

That's going to be a different conversation from Friday...

One wonders why all these people don't simply get an Oyster card.

Maybe they avoid Oyster like the plague as they've been charged the maximum on many occasions due to various reasons and have the hassle of getting it refunded? Whereas paper ticket you've paid the once and that's it.