The way some passengers who have made mistakes are treated

[Camden]

Personally I'm sick and tired of reading on these forums worried messages from ordinary members of the public who have VERY obviously to any normal, reasonable person simply made a simple mistake in their purchase or non-purchase of ticket, yet who have been shown zero discretion or help from the employees of the various TOCs, who seem to instead just rub their hands and screw them for every penny.

Following well deserved furore regarding over-zealous parking wardens, that particular line of enforcement has over the years been compelled to adopt fairer measures and clearly so must the train companies. Particularly considering the myriad of train tickets, routes and rules that can sometimes apply (where even sometimes train staff are in the wrong), getting a train from A to B shouldn't be an event where any one is waiting to catch people out.

It is abundantly clear when someone is a fare dodger, and in this case it's abundantly clear that all was required was for the RP to tip the guy the nod that his card had run out and that he needs to renew it. As a commuter on a card that is merely ONE day out of date, it's a fair assumption he'll need it for his journey home and that therefore he would indeed renew it that very day, equalling zero loss. Instead, fuss, paperwork, a hit and a potential fine.

These events erode trust in the railways, which already struggle in terms of reputation for fairness, and they may also even distract from catching real fare dodgers, not least by eroding any sympathy ordinary people might have for RPs seeking dodgers out (reducing the matter to one "villain" vs another). Something has to be done to instil common sense, fairness and end this kind of nonsense.

 

[najaB]

Personally I'm sick and tired of reading on these forums worried messages from ordinary members of the public...

Thing is, they won't be posting here when discretion has been shown.

 

[Camden]

Thing is, they won't be posting here when discretion has been shown.

No, but I think there are enough people from around the country raising various issues that I feel points to a similar problem along the lines of the old "I was parked on a single yellow line and just a minute late back" type issues.

It just should not be allowed for the above to happen - the guy should have been able to go and renew his ticket, or just buy one for the day. Matter closed.

With the rail industry having to screw the nut, it's inevitable that "zero tolerance" will end up being in force as the TOCs seek to get every penny they can. The trouble with "fare dodgers" is that sometimes they simply are not and shouldn't be given such a hard time for simple mistakes.

 

[najaB]

No, but I think there are enough people from around the country raising various issues that I feel points to a similar problem along the lines of the old "I was parked on a single yellow line with 10 minutes to go" type issues.

As I pointed out in another thread recently, something like 1.6 billion rail journeys were taken last year in the UK. By a large margin, the vast majority will have been free of any complications. I have no doubt that of those where there was a ticketing irregularity, most will have ended with either a Penalty Fare, or no further action being taken. It is unfortunate that in some cases people get caught out because of mistakes they have made, but by no means is it rife throughout the industry, nor is there any case that the TOCs are deliberately trying to screw over their customers*.

It just should not be allowed for the above to happen - the guy should have been able to go and renew his ticket, or just buy one for the day. Matter closed.

But where do you draw the line? If it had been a persistent ticketing offender rather than the OP, are you saying that the inspector should have been forced to say "Have a nice day" and let him on his way?

With the rail industry having to screw the nut, it's inevitable that "zero tolerance" policies will end up being in force as the TOCs seek to get every penny they can. The trouble with "fare dodgers" is that sometimes they simply are not and shouldn't be given such a hard time for simple mistakes.

Again, the majority of people who find themselves talking to inspectors are given an opportunity to state their case and the matter is settled either with no further action or a settlement fee is agreed between the TOC and the person involved.


*That is not to exclude the possibility that there are individuals on power trips, etc.

 

[yorkie]

....shouldn't be an event where any one is waiting to catch people out. ...

The vast majority of rail staff are not trying to catch people out, however you are correct that some Train Companies employ some people for that specific purpose.

Until fairly recently, Northern Rail didn't, but they do now. A Guard would simply point out the ticket expired yesterday and issue a new ticket. Northern Rail are doing this because, I guess, they feel that a small but significant proportion of their customers are trying to diddle them out of money, so - rightly or wrongly - they're fighting back.

However I do feel that when the OP returns the information to Northern, they will decide it's not something that should be pursued. I do agree that a season out of date by one day shouldn't be handled in this way and the rail industry is unique in its treatment of people in such a circumstance.

If my prediction is wrong, and Northern do pursue it, I'd suggest contacting Passenger Focus and the relevant MP.

These events erode trust in the railways....

I agree. However the DfT are happy for Northern to do this, and it won't affect passenger numbers by any noticeable amount as people have no other viable option. So it will continue unabated. There is nothing we can do about it.

 

[Camden]

Again, the majority of people who find themselves talking to inspectors are given an opportunity to state their case and the matter is settled either with no further action or a settlement fee is agreed between the TOC and the person involved.
*That is not to exclude the possibility that there are individuals on power trips, etc.

Getting a letter in the post outlining the allegation against them, and asking them for their version of events (and possibly also talking about the possibility of prosecution) is I would suggest, in the case of an honest mistake, not likely to be seen as an amicable "let's hear what happened" but more likely to scare the life out of your every day law abiding person. Not to mention that if it gets to the stage of names being taken and letters being sent out it is costing you, me and every other fare and taxpayer in un-necessary admin. When it could have been sorted out at the barrier with a few simple words and on your way.

The * you refer to is one possible explanation, however it doesn't matter if it's this or something else. If it happens at all, it's because it's not governed thoroughly enough.

It's not as hard as some on here would make out to know when someone is swinging the lead or not, and I would suggest that if someone can't tell that the laws of probability suggest that someone with a travelcard just one day out of date has obviously made a mistake then perhaps they might not be the best person to be making these kinds of judgement calls.

 

[najaB]

Not to mention that if it gets to the stage of names being taken and letters being sent out it is costing you, me and every other fare and taxpayer in un-necessary admin. When it could have been sorted out at the barrier with a few simple words and on your way.

Which happens hundreds or even thousands of times every day. Simple fact is we just don't know how many times it is settled with a simple word because the people involved won't be on here posting.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I must say that the reports on this forum are unrepresentative in the extreme, and with good reason.

Railway Companies check the numbers of tickets sold against head-counts and detect anomolies. They also identify routes, stations, trains and/or times which are prone to ticketless travel. They discover a lot of fare evasion and question a lot of passengers.

Firstly, there is the very large proportion of passengers who have a ticket, who are checked and who think no more of it. Obviously, we will hear nothing from them on here.

There is another large proportion of passengers who do not have a ticket and who will only want to pay if challenged. Frequently they are not. When they are, they have a 'story' or 'excuse' which attempts to minimise their sense of wrongdoing. If the 'story' or 'excuse' is not immediately accepted, then the matter will be investigated. We often hear from people in this category. Some of those find that their explanation is accepted, some do not.

Of the small number of passengers whose explanation is not immediately accepted, we can consider four further sub-divisions: those few individuals who repeatedly make reference on here to just one single incident on which they were disbelieved, even years after the event; those few who admit that they were attempting to avoid payment unless challenged; those significant proportion who argue that their lapse was untypical, unique, minor, or forgivable and who continue to insist that the penalty is incorrect because of those mitigating circumstances; and, those in a dissapointingly large proprtion who have a perfectly good 'excuse' for their omission, but which on further investigation appears to be false, but who are amongst the most adamant that they are being hard done by.

Add into the mix that there are some people who are pre-disposed to be argumentative; some who are pre-disposed to dislike 'authority'; some who like to find obscure loopholes or arcane authorisations and then resent having them challenged; and of course, no one likes being disbelieved - especially when their 'truth' is a fabrication.

Having become used to all of these, I can't find myself agreeing with your opening premiss "I'm sick and tired of reading on these forums worried messages from ordinary members of the public who have VERY obviously to any normal, reasonable person simply made a simple mistake in their purchase or non-purchase of ticket, yet who have been shown zero discretion or help from the employees of the various TOCs, who seem to instead just rub their hands and screw them for every penny." and if I can't agree with that, then I won't be able to agree with your subsequent conclusions either.

 

[Agent_c]

I used to wonder why I never saw anything like the horror stories I'd read about penalty fares and the like... then I realised in Scotrail land we have it good... Seems unlike the other parts of first they just simply dont bother with the hassle of penalty fares and the like, and sell tickets instead... I don't understand why the other TOCs can't do that....

...Makes me worry though about what might happen with the transfer of franchise though...

 

[Flamingo]

Just to give my personal experience of nearly ten years as a guard on Intercity trains working predominantly stations that have a booking office for most of the day, some of which have them for the whole time services are running, and the vast majority which have TVM's (the only stations I serve which don't have TVM's are not run by my company).

In this time I take a rough average of about £1000 a week in tickets. The vast majority of these passengers have walked past at least one opportunity to pay.

I have given up charging up passengers on "complicated" tickets like Advances, Off-Peak on Peak trains, or missing railcards as I got fed up dealing with the complaints and being told (by the money-grabbing revenue-obsessed management) that I needed to be "more flexible" following the passengers being charged up (I was NEVER found to have wrongly charged anybody).

I frequently (most days) allow passengers to travel with some documentation or ticket missing, or indeed no ticket at all but just advice they need to collect their ticket at their destination as the e-mail (saying "THIS IS NOT A TICKET") is not valid.

I am considered a ticket monster amongst my colleagues, many of whom take a more laid-back approach.

In nine years I have only personally dealt with four passengers ending up in court over having an invalid or no ticket, with no other issues (like assaulting me or police, and the ticket issue being thrown in as a makeweight).

The first two passengers were travelling on an Adult and Child Family Railcard discounted tickets. They were both adults, had no family railcard, refused to excess their tickets, and when asked to leave the train at the next stop, locked themselves in the toilet instead. When hauled out by BTP a few stops later, it turned out to not be a first offence (and BTP strongly suspected they were on their way to pick up drugs).

Another is a multiple fraudster and general low-life who after many years got an ASBO on the railway.

The other was somebody routinely (3-4 times a week for at least six months) using "unstamped" tickets as weekly or monthly season tickets, as their journey began and ended at unbarriered stations. They were shopped by a fellow commuter.

I have referred other passengers who were refusing to buy tickets to Revenue colleagues (who have more time and facilities to investigate their story) and I have done witness statements for passengers who have not paid Unpaid Fare Notices I issued to these passengers as they had no ticket or money and I felt they needed to complete their journey.

That is my personal experience, and I suspect that it will make no difference to the OP as they have made up their mind that "The Man" is out to get unsuspecting passengers.

 

[Class377]

The thing is, the byelaws are strict liability, and regardless of how staff treat ticketless passengers, (if they have passed an opportunity to buy) they have committed an offence. I'm inclined to believe discretion is shown a vast amount of the time but clearly nobody comes on here to post every story where they were shown discretion.

I expect the real issue here is inconsistency, where the (sometimes extreme) discretion can create the misconception that ignoring a ticket office is OK whilst some staff uphold the law and enforce penalties. However, cracking down is seen as even less passenger friendly and so it's an issue that won't ever really be solved easily.

Following well deserved furore regarding over-zealous parking wardens, that particular line of enforcement has over the years been compelled to adopt fairer measures and clearly so must the train companies.

I was under the impression that, as a result of the rules changing, many more "chancers" get away with bending the rules in car parks now and evading punishment. Please explain how you would implement a new method of enforcement that would still punish fare evaders but have zero collateral.

 

[londiscape]

Personally I'm sick and tired of reading on these forums worried messages from ordinary members of the public who have VERY obviously to any normal, reasonable person simply made a simple mistake in their purchase or non-purchase of ticket, yet who have been shown zero discretion or help from the employees of the various TOCs, who seem to instead just rub their hands and screw them for every penny.

Following well deserved furore regarding over-zealous parking wardens, that particular line of enforcement has over the years been compelled to adopt fairer measures and clearly so must the train companies. Particularly considering the myriad of train tickets, routes and rules that can sometimes apply (where even sometimes train staff are in the wrong), getting a train from A to B shouldn't be an event where any one is waiting to catch people out.

It is abundantly clear when someone is a fare dodger, and in this case it's abundantly clear that all was required was for the RP to tip the guy the nod that his card had run out and that he needs to renew it. As a commuter on a card that is merely ONE day out of date, it's a fair assumption he'll need it for his journey home and that therefore he would indeed renew it that very day, equalling zero loss. Instead, fuss, paperwork, a hit and a potential fine.

These events erode trust in the railways, which already struggle in terms of reputation for fairness, and they may also even distract from catching real fare dodgers, not least by eroding any sympathy ordinary people might have for RPs seeking dodgers out (reducing the matter to one "villain" vs another). Something has to be done to instil common sense, fairness and end this kind of nonsense.

I have a good deal of sympathy with the general gist of your argument.

I am of the personal belief that section 18 of the Railway Byelaws should be abolished. Strict liability may be appropriate where it is considered necessary for public safety, such as most motoring offences or food hygiene matters. In these circumstances, persons subject to such laws are expected to have undertaken education and certification in the relevant area - such as a driving course and passing a driving test, or a food safety course and passing a food safety certificate.

Yet we do not expect everyone who travels by train to read up on the (quite complicated) ticketing regulations before they are allowed to board. Yes, there are a goodly number of fare dodgers around, but the provisions of RoRA are enough to deal with the doughnutters, short farers and toilet hiders. And if someone claims to have made a "mistake" three times in a row during a week, CCTV should be adequate to provide evidence of intent. And for those chavs and lowlifes who turn violent when challenged, there's plenty of non-railway related criminal law to deal with them properly (despite the fact that magistrates habitually just slap them on the wrist and tell them not to be a naughty boy/girl again).

And what happens when the booking office clerk makes a mistake? Again, the passenger is criminally responsible. This is not to say that they are not human and should be immune to mistakes, but why should the passenger be treated so disproportionately?

We should not be treating honest people as if they were criminal fare-dodgers just because there are some dishonest people who are actually fare-dodgers, this is, in my opinion, immoral.

 

[najaB]

Yet we do not expect everyone who travels by train to read up on the (quite complicated) ticketing regulations before they are allowed to board.

With regards to Byelaw 18, it really isn't that complicated and can be summed up like this:

If the ticket office is open or there is a TVM then buy the ticket you need before you get on the train. If not then we'll sell you one on the train or at your destination. Just so we're clear, you did read the first sentence, right?

 

[hidden]

Isn't it funny how everyone who doesn't have a ticket ALWAYS has some reason. Not like they wanted to try and dodge their £4 fare.

 

[TEW]

I used to wonder why I never saw anything like the horror stories I'd read about penalty fares and the like... then I realised in Scotrail land we have it good... Seems unlike the other parts of first they just simply dont bother with the hassle of penalty fares and the like, and sell tickets instead... I don't understand why the other TOCs can't do that....

...Makes me worry though about what might happen with the transfer of franchise though...

I'd argue that the lack of Penalty Fares actually lead to less bother than other approaches. Penalty Fares are a relatively quick, hassle-free way of dealing with minor ticketing issues, often failing to purchase at the first available opportunity. They attempt to deter a 'buy when challenged' mentality, but avoid the need for large numbers of by-law prosecutions. On this forum there seem to be far more posts about Northern's 'Failure to Purchase' scheme than we see about Penalty Fares. That's not to say that Penalty Fares are in any way perfect but I do think they are better in practice than the alternative of using the Railway By-laws to deal with more minor ticketing issues.

 

[EM2]

I would suggest that if someone can't tell that the laws of probability suggest that someone with a travelcard just one day out of date has obviously made a mistake then perhaps they might not be the best person to be making these kinds of judgement calls.

Why do the laws of probability suggest this?
Why do they not suggest that it's someone trying to bunk the fare and hoping not to get caught?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I used to wonder why I never saw anything like the horror stories I'd read about penalty fares and the like... then I realised in Scotrail land we have it good... Seems unlike the other parts of first they just simply dont bother with the hassle of penalty fares and the like, and sell tickets instead... I don't understand why the other TOCs can't do that....

...Makes me worry though about what might happen with the transfer of franchise though...

There is a subtle but significant difference in legal procedure between England and Scotland which explains this - not the franchisee.

Why do the laws of probability suggest this?
Why do they not suggest that it's someone trying to bunk the fare and hoping not to get caught?

Well of course, they don't suggest that the person has made an insignificant mistake. Even a season ticket which is one day out of validity is simply that : out of validity. It makes no difference what the date is, what the parameter or limitation is, or whether it is anything to do with railways or other service or supply. Either it is valid or it is not.

But anyway, I see vast amounts of 'discretion' being shown, and that's discretion in favour of the passenger - on the journeys I usually take, a couple of people with invalid tickets might be facing a cost of £500 just to buy the correct ticket on board - but the number of times I've seen them let off (even when I've not been persuaded by the 'excuse') is well beyond counting.

 

[Timster83]

As an interested reader of these forums, it strikes me that most of the issues being presented are ones where the person has made an error of judgement, such as stating that they travelled from a closer/nearer station than they had actually travelled from.

I suspect casual fare dodging goes on a lot more than we might think. Things such as stating the wrong station, travelling on an out of date ticket or railcard, asking for a child fare at the age of 17/18. I also suspect that most of it goes undetected; I know that in my younger days I asked for a half fare well past my 16th birthday and I once used an annual season ticket one month past its expiry without detection. (Now that I'm older and wiser, I do things legally and save money by taking advantage of things that are within the rules).

With respect to the type of casual fare dodging, I think many people don't realise the serious consequences of it and believe they will simply be told off/embarrassed in public by the guard/ticket examiner and asked to pay the correct fare.

Specifically with regards to expired tickets and railcards, I do believe that there will be some people who genuinely forget to renew it or just haven't got round to it yet. But does this number exceed those who try their luck?

For those who do make a genuine error, is an £80 "penalty fare" from Northern or a £20 penalty fare from another TOC really more unfair than a £60 fixed penalty and 3 points for speeding on an empty road in perfect driving conditions? At the very least, it will install a sense of responsibility in the person "fined" and act as a strong encouragement not to let it happen again. (Mods' note: please use this alternative thread for a discussion oncomparing offences)

The other issues we see, such as people like RJ with valid (but non standard) routings, I would like to believe these are unusual. There are clearly issues with some TOCs and some members of staff but this is the same for most businesses in most industries and undoubtably should be addressed.

But for all my experience as a passenger on the railways, I've found staff to be generally courteous and to have shown discretion to myself and other passengers. It's just a shame that the people who do try it on have forced the industry into a position which requires such draconian penalties which affect the probable minority of people who aren't trying it on.

 

[Flamingo]

As an interested reader of these forums, it strikes me that most of the issues being presented are ones where the person has made an error of judgement, such as stating that they travelled from a closer/nearer station than they had actually travelled from.

I suspect casual fare dodging goes on a lot more than we might think. Things such as stating the wrong station, travelling on an out of date ticket or railcard, asking for a child fare at the age of 17/18. I also suspect that most of it goes undetected; I know that in my younger days I asked for a half fare well past my 16th birthday and I once used an annual season ticket one month past its expiry without detection. (Now that I'm older and wiser, I do things legally and save money by taking advantage of things that are within the rules).

With respect to the type of casual fare dodging, I think many people don't realise the serious consequences of it and believe they will simply be told off/embarrassed in public by the guard/ticket examiner and asked to pay the correct fare.

Specifically with regards to expired tickets and railcards, I do believe that there will be some people who genuinely forget to renew it or just haven't got round to it yet. But does this number exceed those who try their luck?

For those who do make a genuine error, is an £80 "penalty fare" from Northern or a £20 penalty fare from another TOC really more unfair than a £60 fixed penalty and 3 points for speeding on an empty road in perfect driving conditions? At the very least, it will install a sense of responsibility in the person "fined" and act as a strong encouragement not to let it happen again.

The other issues we see, such as people like RJ with valid (but non standard) routings, I would like to believe these are unusual. There are clearly issues with some TOCs and some members of staff but this is the same for most businesses in most industries and undoubtably should be addressed.

But for all my experience as a passenger on the railways, I've found staff to be generally courteous and to have shown discretion to myself and other passengers. It's just a shame that the people who do try it on have forced the industry into a position which requires such draconian penalties which affect the probable minority of people who aren't trying it on.

A few times a week I'll have this conversation;
"Ticket from X"
"Oh, how did you get through the barriers at X?"
"They let me through"
"Ok, I'll ring them to check, they are not supposed to"
...."Er, I actually started at Y (unbarriered)"
"Ok, that's where you need a ticket from. Next time ask for a ticket from there or you could end up in court"
Which about a third of the time is answered with - "Yea, whatever, that won't happen".

Cases like RJ's are very rare. I can remember only one or two in nine years where somebody has presented me with a combination or route that has made me go "Huh?".

Split tickets on trains that don't stop there are so common as to be hardly worth remarking on (and the regulars on my patch who do this pay up without question at this stage - but it's been hard work getting them to that stage!)

 

[Alex C.]

With regards to Byelaw 18, it really isn't that complicated and can be summed up like this:

Except it's still not that simple. I use the railways a reasonable amount and still find myself occasionally having anxiety issues because I am sure I'll trip up somewhere.

A couple of examples:

I once (probably 5 years+) boarded an 8 coach train from Hilsea to Fratton, a journey of less than 5 minutes. The TVM at the platform wasn't working and I couldn't see the guard. I'll hold my hands up and say I didn't go searching for him - I genuinely didn't know I had to. I then got off the train and there was a revenue block - I explained the situation and was told I was lying, they haven't had any reports of the TVM not working so I should have paid. Then they told me it was my responsibility to report the TVM not working.

Eventually, they let me pay the cost of my journey and pass through - but the attitude I experienced was one of immediately assuming I was wrong and trying to fare evade. I was a lot less informed back then.

I have travelled from Portchester (which has an early morning only ticket office) a few times recently as well. The station is close to my work, but I live in Portsmouth so I need to buy a return from Portsmouth to Southampton which the TVM doesn't sell. The first time, I boarded and found the guard - who told me I should have bought a return to Portchester and then excessed it.

The next time I did it, I found the guard and asked him to excess it for me - he said he couldn't do it and to go to the ticket office at Southampton. They did excess it for me, but I had to wait for them to do it and missed my train as a result. I haven't had to do the journey again recently but I'll try and buy online beforehand just so I can collect the correct ticket from the TVM (If I can't buy online I'm still not sure if I should be buying the wrong ticket from the TVM or the right ticket from the guard).

Finally, in December, we were on a SWT train from London to Portsmouth with Off Peak Returns - the guard came round and told me the tickets weren't valid as it was the 18th and they were only valid on the 17th, and I'd need to buy new tickets for the 3 of us at a cost of approx £100. He'd obviously had a bad day (abusive passenger in another carriage) but I had to point out several times that the returns were valid until the 17th Jan before he admitted he was wrong and apologised. I suspect others may not have been so confident and would have paid.

I have also had hundreds of journeys with absolutely no problem. Unfortunately, some of my friends (not with me) do 'take a risk' and try to evade the fare - penalty fares don't help this situation as everyone seems to assume that the worst that will happen is a penalty fare.

I don't know what the solution is but there should certainly be more promotion of the consequences of fare evading - get BTP to visit schools and explain the risks as I suspect that's where a lot of the "it won't matter" attitude comes from. If you polled 100 young adults (16-25) I'd be surprised if more than a few realised you could get a criminal record for a first time offence of not paying for a train ticket.

Allowing TVMs to sell a much greater selection of tickets (tickets from other stations) would also help. The usual reason given of it allowing more fraud doesn't hold much water when you can stand next to the TVM, buy your tickets online and collect them immediately.

 

[Class377]

If I want to avoid trouble and just have a peaceful journey from A to B, at A's ticket office I'll just ask for a ticket to B. It's REALLY not that hard.

I know there are ways to split and save money (I frequently use splits on longer journeys) but if someone really is inexperienced on the system and is liable to be "caught out", the easiest thing for them is also the one that has the greatest chance of avoiding prosecution!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd argue that the lack of Penalty Fares actually lead to less bother than other approaches. Penalty Fares are a relatively quick, hassle-free way of dealing with minor ticketing issues, often failing to purchase at the first available opportunity. They attempt to deter a 'buy when challenged' mentality, but avoid the need for large numbers of by-law prosecutions. On this forum there seem to be far more posts about Northern's 'Failure to Purchase' scheme than we see about Penalty Fares. That's not to say that Penalty Fares are in any way perfect but I do think they are better in practice than the alternative of using the Railway By-laws to deal with more minor ticketing issues.

Yes. It is certainly my view that, based on what I am seeing here, Northern should be honest and introduce a proper Penalty Fares Scheme rather than using their £80 pseudo-scheme. It does amaze and irritate that they are allowed to have a de-facto penalty fares scheme that is not a Penalty Fares Scheme.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For those who do make a genuine error, is an £80 "penalty fare" from Northern or a £20 penalty fare from another TOC really more unfair than a £60 fixed penalty and 3 points for speeding on an empty road in perfect driving conditions? At the very least, it will install a sense of responsibility in the person "fined" and act as a strong encouragement not to let it happen again.

My only objection to Northern's scheme is that it is an underhand workaround to introducing a proper Penalty Fares Scheme in compliance with the relevant legislation.

As for the level of the PF, I think the rule need revising as £20 probably is a bit low and £80, reduced to £40 if paid on the spot or within a couple of weeks, but increased to £120 if paid very late or chased through the Courts, would be a better level. This would be in addition to the correct fare (appropriate peak/off peak fare as would have been sold before travel). That would bring it roughly in line with car parking, as the great majority of local fares are at a comparable level to car park tickets.

Neil

 

[najaB]

I once (probably 5 years+) boarded an 8 coach train from Hilsea to Fratton, a journey of less than 5 minutes. The TVM at the platform wasn't working and I couldn't see the guard. I'll hold my hands up and say I didn't go searching for him - I genuinely didn't know I had to. I then got off the train and there was a revenue block - I explained the situation and was told I was lying, they haven't had any reports of the TVM not working so I should have paid. Then they told me it was my responsibility to report the TVM not working.

They were wrong. It's been established that you don't have to look for the guard. It's also not your responsibility to report the TVM out of order.

Eventually, they let me pay the cost of my journey and pass through - but the attitude I experienced was one of immediately assuming I was wrong and trying to fare evade. I was a lot less informed back then.

Which is what they should have done in the first place, without the attitude. What you've described sounds like the actions of someone on a power trip.

I have travelled from Portchester a few times recently as well. The station is close to my work, but I live in Portsmouth so I need to buy a return from Portsmouth. The first time, I boarded and found the guard - who told me I should have bought a return to Portchester and then excessed it.

He was trying to save you some money, there is nothing stopping you buying a ticket with a greater validity than the journey you're making at the time.

The next time I did it, I found the guard and asked him to excess it for me - he said he couldn't do it and to go to the ticket office at Southampton. They did excess it for me, but I had to wait for them to do it and missed my train as a result.

I agree that excesses are a bit of a minefield, but they shouldn't result in a Byelaw prosecution.

I haven't had to do the journey again recently but I'll try and buy online beforehand just so I can collect the correct ticket from the TVM (If I can't buy online I'm still not sure if I should be buying the wrong ticket from the TVM or the right ticket from the guard).

To my mind, both ways are equally valid, but buying the return to Portsmouth is probably the better choice - it might cost a little more, but you don't have the hassle of getting the excess.

Finally, in December, we were on a SWT train from London to Portsmouth with Off Peak Returns - the guard came round and told me the tickets weren't valid as it was the 18th and they were only valid on the 17th, and I'd need to buy new tickets for the 3 of us at a cost of approx £100. He'd obviously had a bad day (abusive passenger in another carriage) but I had to point out several times that the returns were valid until the 17th Jan before he admitted he was wrong and apologised. I suspect others may not have been so confident and would have paid.

I sympathise with an unpleasant experience, but that had nothing to do with ticketing regulations - it was down to unwillingness (or inability) to read.

I don't know what the solution is but there should certainly be more promotion of the consequences of fare evading - get BTP to visit schools and explain the risks as I suspect that's where a lot of the "it won't matter" attitude comes from. If you polled 100 young adults (16-25) I'd be surprised if more than a few realised you could get a criminal record for a first time offence of not paying for a train ticket.

I'd be surprised if there is anyone on the forum who is opposed to better education and publicity around the penalties for fare evasion.

 

[Tom B]

If I want to avoid trouble and just have a peaceful journey from A to B, at A's ticket office I'll just ask for a ticket to B. It's REALLY not that hard.

I'm sure very few people would argue that, turning up to A with half an hour before your train and going to the open ticket office and purchasing your ticket to B is unreasonable. Those who don't are the serial fare evaders who are more determined to avoid a fare.

The problems come when the ticket office is closed, the machines out of order or not selling the correct ticket etc - throw into the mix differences in guard's attitudes, different TOC policies etc. A passenger from up north may well be accustomed to buying his ticket on the train if their local station is equipped with an occasionally-operational TVM which may or may not sell the required ticket - then get caught out when he goes to London and finds penalty fare zones, gates, guards who never come around etc - yes he has broken the rules, but probably unintentionally.

A third group will pay if somebody asks them to but hope nobody does - presumably these are the ones targeted as they are the largest and easiest to catch!

 

[yorkie]

Except it's still not that simple. I use the railways a reasonable amount and still find myself occasionally having anxiety issues because I am sure I'll trip up somewhere.

A couple of examples:

I once (probably 5 years+) boarded an 8 coach train from Hilsea to Fratton, a journey of less than 5 minutes. The TVM at the platform wasn't working and I couldn't see the guard. I'll hold my hands up and say I didn't go searching for him - I genuinely didn't know I had to.

You don't. Who said you do? They're wrong.

I then got off the train and there was a revenue block - I explained the situation and was told I was lying, they haven't had any reports of the TVM not working so I should have paid. Then they told me it was my responsibility to report the TVM not working.

I'd write a complaint to the company about that, but I agree that if the station has a 'Help Point', I'd strongly advise using it to report the fault.

The station is close to my work, but I live in Portsmouth so I need to buy a return from Portsmouth to Southampton which the TVM doesn't sell. The first time, I boarded and found the guard - who told me I should have bought a return to Portchester and then excessed it.

It depends on the policy of the Train Company. I'd seek advice from SWT in writing about this.

The next time I did it, I found the guard and asked him to excess it for me - he said he couldn't do it and to go to the ticket office at Southampton. They did excess it for me, but I had to wait for them to do it and missed my train as a result. I haven't had to do the journey again recently but I'll try and buy online beforehand just so I can collect the correct ticket from the TVM (If I can't buy online I'm still not sure if I should be buying the wrong ticket from the TVM or the right ticket from the guard).

I'm not sure either, as different TOCs have different policies, and I am unsure what SWT's policy is. Can you get something in writing and let us know please?

In the absence of that, buy a ticket that enables you to make part of your journey, and excess it as soon as you can, in accordance with the requirements of the NRCoC.

Unless you have it in writing that SWT are waiving that requirement, I'd assume the NRCoC requirements are enforced.

Finally, in December, we were on a SWT train from London to Portsmouth with Off Peak Returns - the guard came round and told me the tickets weren't valid as it was the 18th and they were only valid on the 17th, and I'd need to buy new tickets for the 3 of us at a cost of approx £100. He'd obviously had a bad day (abusive passenger in another carriage) but I had to point out several times that the returns were valid until the 17th Jan before he admitted he was wrong and apologised. I suspect others may not have been so confident and would have paid.

Agreed.

I have also had hundreds of journeys with absolutely no problem. Unfortunately, some of my friends (not with me) do 'take a risk' and try to evade the fare - penalty fares don't help this situation as everyone seems to assume that the worst that will happen is a penalty fare.

Correct. A PF is supposedly a charge made for a mistake under certain circumstances.

Allowing TVMs to sell a much greater selection of tickets (tickets from other stations) would also help. The usual reason given of it allowing more fraud doesn't hold much water when you can stand next to the TVM, buy your tickets online and collect them immediately.

Southern machines have this facility, perhaps you could ask SWT why their machines do not?

 

[fowler9]

When I have ever made a mistake I have only ever been shown discretion. This includes recently passing through South Parkway with a Trio that expired the day before, West Allerton ticket office being closed and my debit card not working on the train, also numerous occasions over the years dosing off on late trains after Friday nights out and over traveling (Most conductors on these occasions have Not charged me at all for where I went and where I had to get back to, a few charged me the return fare for the full journey. On one occasion I managed to sleep through to Stafford when meaning to get off at South Parkway. The staff there told me to leg it and get on the last train back North that was about to leave and tell the conductor. The conductor wouldn't take my money. I bought a ticket at Crewe back to Liverpool. All in all I've only ever had good experiences.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Split tickets on trains that don't stop there are so common as to be hardly worth remarking on (and the regulars on my patch who do this pay up without question at this stage - but it's been hard work getting them to that stage!)

To be honest I'd like to see the rules on that changed, to something more like "it is valid if the TOC you are using stops any train at the station where you change from one ticket to the other", as if they do they'll be getting the money anyway.

I suspect that's unlikely to happen, though.

Neil

 

[najaB]

So I'm less than convinced that the railway needs a criminal sanction of its own, to be honest.

I think that it needs a criminal sanction, but I actually agree that Byelaws 17 and 18 aren't the best way to deal with ticketless travel. In an ideal world, there would be a consistent and universally applied penalty fares scheme to deal with 'casual' irregularities and persistent or grievous cases would fall under the Regulation of Railways Act.
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To be honest I'd like to see the rules on that changed, to something more like "it is valid if the TOC you are using stops any train at the station where you change from one ticket to the other", as if they do they'll be getting the money anyway.

I don't know if that would make matters any clearer though. It's pretty black and white if the train you are on stops at a particular station, it starts getting a bit trickier when people have to carry a timetable to see if a particular TOC stops at a station or not.

 

[furlong]

To be honest I'd like to see the rules on that changed, to something more like "it is valid if the TOC you are using stops any train at the station where you change from one ticket to the other"

That is of course what the rules used to say...

 

[455driver]

It is abundantly clear when someone is a fare dodger,

Go on then tell us who a fare dodger is or what they look like? :roll: