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Theresa May calls General Election on 8th June.

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najaB

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This quote from 2010 where she is saying white males should be at the front of the queue when it comes to public sector job cuts is probably her most racist comment ever.
Well, I put this in the valid point made very badly category. White males have - generally speaking - made it higher up the career ladder.

So, if job cuts started from the bottom they would tend to impact minority females disproportionately, where job cuts at the top would tend to impact white, middle-aged males.

If this was the point she was actually trying to make, or if she just happened to accidentally have been right is an exercise for the reader.
 
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northwichcat

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There's a difference between kicking non-native people out, and having to leave once a right to reside lapses.

So is that clearly stated on the paperwork EU nationals had to complete to be able to work here? I've not seen the paperwork so I don't if it is or isn't.
 

northwichcat

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Well, I put this in the valid point made very badly category. White males have - generally speaking - made it higher up the career ladder.

So, if job cuts started from the bottom they would tend to impact minority females disproportionately, where job cuts at the top would tend to impact white, middle-aged males.

If this was the point she was actually trying to make, or if she just happened to accidentally have been right is an exercise for the reader.

Be careful about using minority and female in the same sentence. Females make up just over 50% of the population so aren't a minority group.
 

northwichcat

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This quote from 2010 where she is saying white males should be at the front of the queue when it comes to public sector job cuts is probably her most racist comment ever.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/199632/Diane-Abbott-Protect-women-and-black-workers-from-job-cuts

She's a copper bottomed full on racist.

Whether the Corbynites like it or not that's precisely why Labour need Blarites on the front benches. Ms Abbott is not a suitable person for a front bench role but many back benchers have suitable qualifications and backgrounds for front bench roles.
 

SteveP29

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I certainly didn't make my mind up based on any promises by the leave campaigns (official or otherwise), and I don't know anyone that did.

Second time I've seen you say you didn't make your mind up according to what the campaigns said in the last few pages.
YOU don't specifically speak for ALL those who voted leave and just because YOU did the research and didn't believe the hype, that doesn't mean that everyone else who vote leave did the same
 

Barn

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It's also rather worrying that the European Parliament, as the only EU body comprised of elected representatives of the member states, cannot originate "legislation" within the EU's remit.

Difficult one, that, because I'm not entirely convinced a majority of people would want the European Parliament to be able to initiate legislation. Legislation could appear despite significant opposition in a nation, and it would be very difficult for that nation politically to block it in the Council if it received overwhelming support in the Parliament. What about things like banning religious dress in public, which has widespead support in parts of Europe but is seen as illiberal in other parts?

However, it does raise an important point, which is the inability of the Parliament to reverse or repeal laws it has previously passed, leading to a ratchet effect of more and more EU legislation and regulation.
 

meridian2

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Second time I've seen you say you didn't make your mind up according to what the campaigns said in the last few pages.
YOU don't specifically speak for ALL those who voted leave and just because YOU did the research and didn't believe the hype, that doesn't mean that everyone else who vote leave did the same
The bus campaign was an excellent piece of public relations, which may have accounted for some of the winning percentage. It's the kind of factoid in which political campaigners trade all the time at general elections, so it's disingenuous to alight on one point as uniquely misleading. Most people vote from the gut, and that's as true at referendums as elections. The Lib Dems promised to do away with higher education tuition fees, instead they went from £3290 to £9000 under the coalition. That's what politicians do. In the world of Tom and Jerry politics both cat and mouse can be killed stone dead only to reappear in rude good health in the next episode.
 

Barn

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It is inconceivable to me that anybody saw or heard of the bus on the news without also seeing or hearing of lots of voices on the news saying that the message on the bus was wrong. Give the public some credit: they can process these arguments and decide which they prefer.
 

EM2

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... it's disingenuous to alight on one point as uniquely misleading.

It is inconceivable to me that anybody saw or heard of the bus on the news without also seeing or hearing of lots of voices on the news saying that the message on the bus was wrong.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/#
Once again, Dominic Cummings, the Campaign Director of Vote Leave, has stated that Leave would not have won without the message that was on the bus.
‘The official bill of EU membership is £350 million per week – let’s spend our money on our priorities like the NHS instead.’ (Sometimes we said ‘we send the EU £350m’ to provoke people into argument. This worked much better than I thought it would. There is no single definitive figure because there are different sets of official figures but the Treasury gross figure is slightly more than £350m of which we get back roughly half, though some of this is spent in absurd ways like subsidies for very rich landowners to do stupid things.)

Pundits and MPs kept saying ‘why isn’t Leave arguing about the economy and living standards’. They did not realise that for millions of people, £350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards – that’s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. Even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way.
 

Railops

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It is inconceivable to me that anybody saw or heard of the bus on the news without also seeing or hearing of lots of voices on the news saying that the message on the bus was wrong. Give the public some credit: they can process these arguments and decide which they prefer.

That's right but of course all these poor losers never mention the "immediate profound economic shock", the emergency budget, the 3-6% immediate drop in growth, the massive drop in property values, the year long recession and 820,000 job losses, the Osborne quote that "the redundancies start on Friday"

All of those threats would have tipped millions into voting to Stay.

This European talk is probably in the wrong thread.
 
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bramling

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Well, I put this in the valid point made very badly category. White males have - generally speaking - made it higher up the career ladder.

So, if job cuts started from the bottom they would tend to impact minority females disproportionately, where job cuts at the top would tend to impact white, middle-aged males.

If this was the point she was actually trying to make, or if she just happened to accidentally have been right is an exercise for the reader.

Surely if job cuts are to be made, it should be based on business needs rather than demographics?

Abbott is and always was a nasty piece of work, next month we will see Britain deliver its verdict on her and the rest of the current shambles that goes by the name of Labour.
 

meridian2

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That's right but of course all these poor losers never mention the "immediate profound economic shock", the emergency budget, the 3-6% immediate drop in growth, the massive drop in property values, the year long recession and 820,000 job losses, the Osborne quote that "the redundancies start on Friday"

All of those threats would have tipped millions into voting to Stay.
Absolutely. Britain will neither pass into a sunlit economic upland, nor a new financial dark age after Brexit, because global forces are more powerful than any Brussels desk jockey. WE will be pretty much as before, a nation on the tide of global events. The truth is nobody had a clue what would happen because no large EU contributor had left before, but that didn't stop either side spinning it to their advantage. Until negotiations are formally under way, we still don't know but we can be certain both sides will claim victory and the immanent demise of the other.
 

bramling

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Second time I've seen you say you didn't make your mind up according to what the campaigns said in the last few pages.
YOU don't specifically speak for ALL those who voted leave and just because YOU did the research and didn't believe the hype, that doesn't mean that everyone else who vote leave did the same

Where's the evidence that large numbers of people voted leave based on the side of the bus? All I see are opinions on what impact it may have had.

It's time people moved on from this. *If* it really is the case that this had a bearing on the result and it really was misleading (which in itself is debatable) then the remain side had ample opportunity at the time to make a counter argument. It would have been easy enough to have a bus driving round with a banner on the side claiming the figure to be wrong.

In my view there was a balanced debate, and people made their minds up accordingly. I can only speak for the people I know, including at my place of work - where incidentally something like 90% of people voted leave - and I can guarantee there was a lot of discussion, debate and analysing various different arguments before reaching a final conclusion.

In the meantime the Brexit process continues.
 

najaB

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Surely if job cuts are to be made, it should be based on business needs rather than demographics?
You would think so. Unfortunately the Civil Service is known (possibly unjustly?) for protecting higher-ups at the expense of front-line staff.
 

Howardh

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Where's the evidence that large numbers of people voted leave based on the side of the bus? All I see are opinions on what impact it may have had.

It's time people moved on from this. *If* it really is the case that this had a bearing on the result and it really was misleading (which in itself is debatable) then the remain side had ample opportunity at the time to make a counter argument. It would have been easy enough to have a bus driving round with a banner on the side claiming the figure to be wrong.

The evidence is - if writing a big darned lie on the side of a bus (and the considerable expense of doing so) isn't done to "influence" voters...then why do it? For a laugh??

And I don't recall any Brexit supporters writing on this or any other forums that "oh, the bus advert, that's a lie obviously" before the vote. Did you.....??

No, we will not move on from this. Ever.
"The Pound In Your Pocket"
"The Lady's Not For Turning"
"Let's Give The NHS £350m/Week"

It's there for eternity. We didn't write it....

<D
 

bramling

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The evidence is - if writing a big darned lie on the side of a bus (and the considerable expense of doing so) isn't done to "influence" voters...then why do it? For a laugh??

And I don't recall any Brexit supporters writing on this or any other forums that "oh, the bus advert, that's a lie obviously" before the vote. Did you.....??

No, we will not move on from this. Ever.
"The Pound In Your Pocket"
"The Lady's Not For Turning"
"Let's Give The NHS £350m/Week"

It's there for eternity. We didn't write it....

<D

Of course it was done in an attempt to influence voters.

But if I drove a bus round Britain with a message saying "Let's all stab the next person we come across", does that mean anyone has to take any notice? Part of having a debate is viewpoints are expressed, counter viewpoints are expressed, people have the opportunity to go away and do their own research, then finally people make their minds up.
 

DarloRich

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Absolutely. Britain will neither pass into a sunlit economic upland, nor a new financial dark age after Brexit, because global forces are more powerful than any Brussels desk jockey. WE will be pretty much as before, a nation on the tide of global events. The truth is nobody had a clue what would happen because no large EU contributor had left before, but that didn't stop either side spinning it to their advantage. Until negotiations are formally under way, we still don't know but we can be certain both sides will claim victory and the immanent demise of the other.

my view was (and remains) that the effects of leaving the EU would not be felt on day or week 1 but in week 324 when the deal is done. I think for many (and for many in areas I known well who voted leave) there will be a negative effect and that they will be the ones who suffer.

I think we as a nation have made a mistake in cutting ourselves off from such a large and free market and must now seek to mitigate that impact by doing the best deal we can. My concern is that we are not equipped to manage the required negotiations and that this leads to a less advantageous deal than we might otherwise expect.

BTW I accept the result of the referendum even if i think we have made a big mistake. Time will tell.
 

Howardh

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Of course it was done in an attempt to influence voters.

But if I drove a bus round Britain with a message saying "Let's all stab the next person we come across", does that mean anyone has to take any notice?

Yes, the police, you'd get arrested for inciting violence.

If a bus went past with an official Labour poster on "Vote Labour And We'll Give You £1000" and you did, wouldn't yo be asking for your cash the following day? Terms and conditions, written contract, yup, Jeremy, here's my bank details.

If you don't mean it, or can't keep to it, don't write it. Easy-peasy.
 

meridian2

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But if I drove a bus round Britain with a message saying "Let's all stab the next person we come across", does that mean anyone has to take any notice?
They'd take notice. There'd be an almighty stink for a week, millions of internet threads words would be wasted on the subject, and people will go on exactly as before. Remember the materialist-atheist-humanist bus campaign slogan, "There's probably no God, now stop worry and enjoy your life"? A meme based on so many unprovable assertions that did nothing except occupying air time and raise sales of Richard Dawkins' latest book. On Blair's demon-eyes, or Britain Isn't Working. None were empirically true, but all's fair in the institutional hypocrisy that is party politics.
 

northwichcat

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Remember the materialist-atheist-humanist bus campaign slogan, "There's probably no God, now stop worry and enjoy your life"? A meme based on so many unprovable assertions that did nothing except occupying air time and raise sales of Richard Dawkins' latest book. On Blair's demon-eyes, or Britain Isn't Working. None were empirically true, but all's fair in the institutional hypocrisy that is party politics.

Of course no one can prove that there is or isn't a God.

The claim we send £350m to the EU is proven to be factually inacurrate before we even consider if any 'freed up' money will go to the NHS once we leave.
 

northwichcat

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Cast your mind back to their shameful referendum broadcast: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h_MzHFiu-6Y

'We send £350 million a week to the EU, that's enough money to build one new hospital every week.............'
Then you have the split screen when the poor, coughing old lady is seen instantly in an NHS 'outside the EU' in an near empty A&E waiting room, 'cos we've sent all those foreigners that work as low paid health care assistants in the NHS back home', but in the NHS 'inside the EU' she's still sat in a crowded waiting room, by the time the 'outside the EU' NHS has diagnosed her and sent her home.

The annoying thing about that broadcast is it was scheduled to be shown the day Jo Cox was murdered but got postponed to a weekend prime time slot when there wasn't a referendum broadcast due to be broadcast, so I imagine a lot of people who tried to avoid the referendum broadcasts altogether saw that one full of lies from Leave unintentionally.
 
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northwichcat

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Yes, the police, you'd get arrested for inciting violence.

And if the bus advert belonged to a political party they would risk having their political party banned or as a minimum members of the party would be banned from entering the civil service (as is the case with BNP members already.)
 

northwichcat

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Corbyn said:
We will strengthen the ability of trade unions

Will that include learning to use the spell checker or getting someone to proof read press releases before they are released?

RMT said:
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“RMT members at Arriva Triancare have delivered a massive yes vote for action and the company should wake up and take notice of the anger amongst their workforce over the pay issue.
 

Kite159

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Seems to be nearly every day Labour comes out with "if elected we will give many pennies to such and such a cause", without actually saying where those many pennies will come from.

And good news, Mrs May is going travelling around the country... in a helicopter to avoid having to talk to regular people :lol:
 

fowler9

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Seems to be nearly every day Labour comes out with "if elected we will give many pennies to such and such a cause", without actually saying where those many pennies will come from.

And good news, Mrs May is going travelling around the country... in a helicopter to avoid having to talk to regular people :lol:

If they said they were going to take a reasonable amount more in tax to pay for whatever then I would buy in to that. I have worked in Life and Health assurance and also housing and seen how companies will move heaven and earth to make sure you get nothing back of what you pay in to a company as opposed to public services. Anecdotal I know but it is an eye opener.
 

meridian2

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Of course no one can prove that there is or isn't a God.

The claim we send £350m to the EU is proven to be factually inacurrate before we even consider if any 'freed up' money will go to the NHS once we leave.
There's nothing to stop government putting £350m into the NHS instead of whatever was paid into the EU.
 

northwichcat

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There's nothing to stop government putting £350m into the NHS instead of whatever was paid into the EU.

But Leave weren't in a position to make that claim as the government didn't back Leave and it was a referendum not an election for a new government. Hopefully the Uxbridge voters have the sense to get rid of their scruffy lying toad in a few weeks.

Anyone who's looked at the sheet the government send you saying where your taxes have been spent will realise the total EU budget going to the NHS would be a drop in the ocean.
 

meridian2

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Seems to be nearly every day Labour comes out with "if elected we will give many pennies to such and such a cause", without actually saying where those many pennies will come from.
Labour threaten to tax the rich, but as such people are adept at tax avoidance they raise taxes for average earners. The Tories claim wealth creators will flee if they raise taxes, realise the poor can't pay much tax, so also raise tax for average earners. By the time defence and health spending have been taken out the pot, most claims are spin.
 
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