This mornings Northern Revenue Op - Liverpool Echo

[185]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...an-furious-after-82-12246736#ICID=FB-Liv-main

Not sure if it's been posted but looks like Northern have upset a few with yesterday mornings op at Liverpool Lime Street.

Passengers claiming ten people in the queue for the booking office, whilst Northern state passengers should have used their app to purchase tickets avoiding queuing.

A Liverpool man who was fined £82 this morning for not having a ticket with Northern Rail says the operator traps customers “like shooting fish in a barrel”.
Peter Rooke, 40, from Childwall, said he planned to buy a ticket in Liverpool because of the queue at his station, but a spokesman for Northern said there is no excuse for not having a ticket before getting on a train Mr Rooke went to Broad Green Station to catch the 15-minute train to Liverpool Lime Street for work. He said this morning there was a queue of about 10 people for one ticket officer at the station - some of whom were buying season tickets. He did not have time to queue and hopped on the first train into Liverpool - the 8.21 - because the following train was delayed.

Mr Rooke said: “If I didn’t jump on that train I wouldn’t have been able to catch my connection and then I would be late for work.” An anytime single from Broadgreen is £2.20, with Mr Brook saying he planned to buy a ticket in Liverpool as he had in the past. But today when he got off the train, he and six other passengers were fined £82.50 by inspectors. The sale manager said he was upset because he always pays for his tickets and does not try to scam the system. He added he felt staff were “condescending” after they advised him to get to the station earlier. Mr Brook said: “There just aren’t enough facilities at Broad Green to buy a ticket on the day. You board the train because you know there’s a ticket seller at Lime Street.

“They’re trapping people. They have created a situation whereby passengers are boarding trains without tickets because of their poor customer service and then they have five or six ticket inspectors ready to issue fines.

“It’s like shooting fish in a barrel.” A Northern Rail spokesman said: “Where facilities are provided to buy a ticket before boarding a service, customers are required by law to do so. This is also, clearly, the most straightforward way of avoiding any implication of wrongdoing and associated fines.” They added that Broad Green station is open from 5.35am and there are alternative ways for customers to buy tickets. “All customers also have the option to purchase tickets using our dedicated mobile app or our website – as well as third party websites. “Together these options provide ample opportunity for our customers to be certain they are in possession of the correct tickets, with some providing the added benefit that passengers do not have to queue on the day of travel.”

*Just checked re delays to subsequent two trains.
Trains
4 mins later was 7 min late
9 mins later was just 2 min late

 

[507 001]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...an-furious-after-82-12246736#ICID=FB-Liv-main

Not sure if it's been posted but looks like Northern have upset a few with this mornings op at Liverpool Lime Street.

Passengers claiming ten people in the queue for the booking office, whilst Northern state passengers should have used their app to purchase tickets avoiding queuing.

Wholeheartedly agree with the company.

He could have either got to the station earlier, used a TVM or the App.

It's not as if it isn't clear.

 

[185]

Wholeheartedly agree with the company.

He could have either got to the station earlier, used a TVM or the App.

It's not as if it isn't clear.

No TVM at Broadgreen - and their app isn't great... (ie not as good as ours )

You'll know I can't stand fare evaders at the best of times, but I do buy into the concept that there should always be a reasonable facility to buy a ticket. Where a queue builds up, the old procedure was for the booking office clerk to either ring control (who would notify guards/revenue) or pop you head out and tell the guard.

Nowadays, there is technology for staff to notify control in an instant if the queue is out of control.

Sounds like the delayed trains bit was a lie though, no major delays.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Wholeheartedly agree with the company.

He could have either got to the station earlier, used a TVM or the App.

It's not as if it isn't clear.

Using the App is not possible close to the departure of a train - there needs to be time for the app to "deliver" the ticket. I've tried to buy just before I boarded to avoid a queue at Piccadilly, just in case the guard didn't make it down the train or was not selling tickets (40-50% of cases)

 

[najaB]

While Northern were in the right legally, I'm wondering if the ill-will this particular exercise is generating made it a good idea in the long run. Perhaps they could have offered an 'early payment' discount (75%) on the fixed notices?

 

[markindurham]

There's not too much sympathy from other 'normals' for this bloke getting caught. Indeed, one comment suggests that he's quite possibly a serial offender...

 

[Agent_c]

Whilst I have no love for fare dodgers, I do have a (small) amount of Sympathy for those who legitimately get on a train on the expectation of paying at the other end.

Yes, Yes, I know about the big prominent signs saying you must pay before boarding where facilities exist, but in allowing people to do it when a RPI isn't present I believe the TOCs are creating an unfair expectation that this is somehow okay - when we all know it isn't.

I think the guys at the other end who sell tickets should be unskilled to full RPI. If a passenger has no ticket, and cannot give a good excuse why they could not buy one (Line too long without being told by staff it was okay to board is not a good excuse), then straight to penalty fare... none of this ticket selling stuff.

 

[adam9413]

Northern actively sell tickets inside the barriers at Lime Street, using a stand between platforms 5 and 6. I presume those officers had a day off for the sting. In other words, they have created an expectation that you can buy tickets when getting off the train.

 

[sheff1]

Wholeheartedly agree with the company.

He could have either got to the station earlier, used a TVM or the App.

What TVM ?

How much earlier should he arrive - 10 mins, 20, 30 ?

Little use booking on line, as Northern suggest. Even if Broad Green do TOD collection from the booking office (I do not know) he would have to get in the same queue.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Northern actively sell tickets inside the barriers at Lime Street, using a stand between platforms 5 and 6. I presume those officers had a day off for the sting. In other words, they have created an expectation that you can buy tickets when getting off the train.

In some cases (not necessarily this one), the stings take place away from the sellers, allowing passengers a chance to buy a ticket or to try and leave the station without buying one, so those caught are ones who were not attempting to buy a ticket.

 

[gray1404]

This is not acceptable. If there are 10 people in the que at the booking office then clearly there are not enough facilities at the station. Shame on Northern. The customer turned up at the station with the intent to buy a ticket but the company prevented him from doing so as they were unable to serve him within the time stated in their passengers charter. It is simply not acceptable to merely state the customer should have got there sooner. That does nothing to be honest and accept the customer was let down and fails to address the core issue.

 

[Loop & Link]

Deleted

 

[najaB]

The customer turned up at the station with the intent to buy a ticket but the company prevented him from doing so as they were unable to serve him within the time stated in their passengers charter.

I may have missed it, but I can't see anything saying that the passenger in question waited any length of time. He says he saw the queue and jumped on a train instead.

 

[185]

It's does help that I do about 50 pre-printed tickets! And I know for a fact Broad Green do preprints too. Doesn't help when everyone pays by card though!

Embarrassing that in this day and age any modern ticket issuing system goes so slow that staff have to do preprints at the start of the peak - jeez, Sportis (from the 1980s) was one button and *ping*. Technology eh

 

[Loop & Link]

[Deleted]

 

[Starmill]

I was a t Broad Green a while ago and thought it would be a good candidate for a ticket machine because it was busy. There wasn't a huge amount of room for one though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You should see my station in the peak! Madness doesn't come close! But very rarely have anyone not get the train due to queues. Only reason would be card payments, or a season ticket from scratch and if anyone does have to jump on because of queues quick email to all stations and RPO's and no one should get in trouble - easy!

Are you willing to give away your station? I can understand if not, but is it the same TOC (or also Merseyside)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wholeheartedly agree with the company.

He could have either got to the station earlier, used a TVM or the App.

It's not as if it isn't clear.

He could, but it's appalling customer service. Northern do not have adequate ticket issuing facilities at the vast majority of their stations. And confusion is brought in if they *ever* sell him a ticket on board - the system needs to be consistent above all else - at the very minimum if he's sold a ticket on other occasions it needs to be sold with a clear leaflet stating "you've been lucky this time, punk, it could be £80 next time". But preferably, if they are going to use "penalty fares", it should be proper ones to the relevant Act, applied consistently every time - no more on-board ticket sales at all.

I equally think it's time for an imposed (by DfT) national standard of a maximum waiting time beyond which boarding without a ticket is officially legitimised. Booking office staff could be provided with books of pre-printed Permits to Travel for this purpose.

 

[Loop & Link]

[Deleted]

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is not acceptable. If there are 10 people in the que at the booking office then clearly there are not enough facilities at the station. Shame on Northern. The customer turned up at the station with . . . . . .

Eh?

Ten people in the rush hour?

That predictable daily 'rush' ? Every weekday, week in and week out ?

This allegedly outrageous incident happened in the "rush hour", which is a period of time which, at any particular station in the commuter network around every provincial city, is unlikely to last for as much as an hour. It doesn't come as a surprise.

In fact, I guess that the predictability of the weekday rush hour is more reliable than the service of the railway operators you criticise. How is any commercial body with marginal viability, going to provide staff of any standard of technical expertise above retail POS scanning, at the numbers required for that brief hour, on any meaningful terms of employment ? ?

Or are they to provide high staff numbers for an hour or so on some sort of free-at-the-point-of-delivery contract while they offer some other voluntary activities such as litter-picking for the rest of the duration of an unpaid shift (as in charity shops)?
Or perhaps recruit some free labour from those struggling to find work other than in those charity shops?

Of all the many obsessively anti-rail posts I regularly read on this forum, this one deserves an award for excellence. Please accept my nomination for the "bitter and irrational anti-rail post of 2016".

My memory is becoming unreliable, but in the past, I seem to recall driving a vehicle in the rush hour on a three lane motorway, at speeds slower than cycling for many miles. If I recall correctly, it might have been as much as 7 hours ago. And at the same time the day before. And maybe even the day before that. Clearly, if I made that hour long journey now, (in the small hours of the morning) it will take 15 minutes.
My point is this : don't attach blame for the institution known as 'the rush hour' anywhere more specific than towards 'society' as a broad cultural property. It is not of the making of the railways, road planners, car manufactures, or of any other provider of the means to enable millions of people to move short distances in a synchronised move to account for that demand. Nor to be accountable for it. Nor to be shamed for providing adequate staff on acceptable terms of contract for a reasonable shift. Nor to be offering contracts which does not include anything like a full working day.

There might just be a passenger-friendly purpose to all the mobile apps on offer to passengers; these, and the web based retailers, can relieve the pressure on front line staff when all the punters turn up with no time to spare in that brief rush hour.

PS Please don't let me obstruct your passionate contempt for our railways, I hope and am sure that this forum will continue to provide you with the platform you desire to express your contempt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eh?

Ten people in the rush hour?

That predictable daily 'rush' ? Every weekday, week in and week out ?

This allegedly outrageous incident happened in the "rush hour", which is a period of time which, at any particular station in the commuter network around every provincial city, is unlikely to last for as much as an hour. It doesn't come as a surprise.

In fact, I guess that the predictability of the weekday rush hour is more reliable than the service of the railway operators you criticise. How is any commercial body with marginal viability, going to provide staff of any standard of technical expertise above retail POS scanning, at the numbers required for that brief hour, on any meaningful terms of employment ? ?

Or are they to provide high staff numbers for an hour or so on some sort of free-at-the-point-of-delivery contract while they offer some other voluntary activities such as litter-picking for the rest of the duration of an unpaid shift (as in charity shops)?
Or perhaps recruit some free labour from those struggling to find work other than in those charity shops?

Or perhaps ensure that every station other than those which are effectively "Paytrain" stations has at least one TVM, preferably two, in addition to the ticket office?

Crikey, Metrolink manage two per station. In the South East, at least one is the norm.

 

[Starmill]

For the record, at Mauldeth Road on a Monday morning, particularly if the machine is broken (which is not uncommon), there can be a queue of a lot more than 10 people. Most will be served - this can be done remarkably quickly as a huge number of people want the same thing - an SDS (or SDR) to Manchester Central Zone. If they cannot all be served, it's a 31 minute wait for the next train, and everyone queueing who wants that train (usually everyone) will just be told to get on and the ticket office staff can let them know at Piccadilly. Luckily the ticket machine being functional tends to speed this up enough that everyone can get a ticket.

I would say that a ticket vending machine is the solution if Broad Green has a particular problem, Dave, rather than all of this stuff about charity shops or whatever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say that a ticket vending machine is the solution if Broad Green has a particular problem, Dave, rather than all of this stuff about charity shops or whatever.

In some similar cases, it might be worth considering a very simple TVM to speed things up a lot - just buttons (or touch screen cells) for "SDR to $BIGCITY", "CDR to $BIGCITY" and child versions of those, and a contactless pad and Chip and PIN slot - press the relevant button to increment the number of that ticket you want, then press pay, pay and get a ticket in seconds. Those wanting anything more interesting or paying by cash could use the ticket office or a "proper" TVM.

They could even be issued on till receipt paper if Liverpool Lime St barriers have barcode scanners, so could be printed *very* quickly.

 

[gray1404]

A station such as the one in this case should, at the very least have a TVM in addition to the booking office. Simple as that. If the customer did allow a reasonable amount of time to by their ticket, then I am totally on their side. Why should anyone be late for work because the que at the one booking office and only point of sale at a station takes too long to clear. It is also worth noting that the said customer had a connection to make too.

 

[bb21]

In some similar cases, it might be worth considering a very simple TVM to speed things up a lot - just buttons (or touch screen cells) for "SDR to $BIGCITY", "CDR to $BIGCITY" and child versions of those, and a contactless pad and Chip and PIN slot - press the relevant button to increment the number of that ticket you want, then press pay, pay and get a ticket in seconds. Those wanting anything more interesting or paying by cash could use the ticket office or a "proper" TVM.

They could even be issued on till receipt paper if Liverpool Lime St barriers have barcode scanners, so could be printed *very* quickly.

The solution is ultimately away from paper tickets. Anyone insisting on paper tickets can pay a premium to reflect the higher costs. That will soon reduce ticket office queues.

The technology is there. The DfT need to get their acts together. There are lots of innovative ideas in the industry. Government red-tape is what is stopping progress.

 

[najaB]

If the customer did allow a reasonable amount of time to by their ticket, then I am totally on their side.

I note that doubt has replaced certainty. Unfortunately the passenger isn't a member, or if they are has chosen not to post so we'll never know.

 

[DelayRepay]

I have a problem with this comment from Northern:

All customers also have the option to purchase tickets using our dedicated mobile app or our website – as well as third party websites. “Together these options provide ample opportunity for our customers to be certain they are in possession of the correct tickets, with some providing the added benefit that passengers do not have to queue on the day of travel.”

Not all passengers have the option to purchase via mobile ap as not all passengers own a smart phone. And those that do may not have battery or a 4G signal. And using a website is no good if the station doesn't have a TVM to collect from.

I agree with those who have already said that Northern ought to provide more ticket buying opportunities, eg a basic TVM at stations.

 

[Haywain]

In some similar cases, it might be worth considering a very simple TVM to speed things up a lot - just buttons (or touch screen cells) for "SDR to $BIGCITY", "CDR to $BIGCITY" and child versions of those, and a contactless pad and Chip and PIN slot - press the relevant button to increment the number of that ticket you want, then press pay, pay and get a ticket in seconds. Those wanting anything more interesting or paying by cash could use the ticket office or a "proper" TVM.

I'm afraid that the simple solution you suggest is not really a viable solution due to the complexity of the fares system. Even a single to the local big city will have many variations - the child option is actually a small number of sales compared to various railcards, combinations of numbers, and variations of destination (in Liverpool, the final destination is likely to include quite a bit of variation of onward connections to major employment areas) so that a city centre destination might not take too much pressure from other sales points.

And it's worth bearing in mind that your are effectively proposing a 2 TVM solution that offers no benefit to the TOC other than one machine selling less than the other. Why pay for two when one can do the same job?

As for this thread, and the outrage bus's cause célèbre, I would take the suggestion of "a queue of about 10 people" with a very large pinch of salt. We often read on this forum of 'long queues' and people caught out are likely to use that sort of thing in their defence whether it is true or not. We know nothing of the actual numbers queuing or how fast they were getting served, or how much time Peter Rooke had allowed for buying a ticket ("He did not have time to queue"). It's worth noting that he was worried about making a connection but was going to buy a ticket in Liverpool - is service in Liverpool that fast that he would have endangered his connection by doing so? This was at a station with trains every 10-15 minutes, so perhaps he should have left a touch earlier to make sure he wasn't going to be late for work. And if this was a regular journey (to work, so likely to be) why not have a season ticket of some sort. Perhaps the opportunity to save money was too great. Too many questions and not enough answers, and yet we rely on a newspaper report as being the gospel truth.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Why should anyone be late for work because the queue at the one booking office and only point of sale at a station takes too long to clear.

Whenever I see this type of story, it baffles me a little why regular commuters don't use the time saving device of a season ticket or at the very least obtain their tickets the day before to avoid queues on time critical parts of their daily journey.

 

[Deerfold]

Whenever I see this type of story, it baffles me a little why regular commuters don't use the time saving device of a season ticket or at the very least obtain their tickets the day before to avoid queues on time critical parts of their daily journey.

It does seem odd that he wanted a single at £2.20 - unless he gets a lift home each day.

If he does that would explain him not wanting a season ticket - the cheapest Merseyside Railpass is £15.30 a week, with no standard point-to-point season being available.

 

[sheff1]

And it's worth bearing in mind that your are effectively proposing a 2 TVM solution that offers no benefit to the TOC other than one machine selling less than the other. Why pay for two when one can do the same job?

And why pay for one when you can sting people for £80 a time under a Penalty Fake scheme?

I see no justifiable reason why a station such as Broad Green does not have a TVM.