Thrown off the train for not having means to pay for a ticket

[thenorthern]

While I was on the 18:40 Glasgow Central to Birmingham New Street train this evening a lad got on the train at Wigan North Western without a valid ticket hoping to go to Wolverhampton but as he didn't have a ticket or the means of paying for it so he was quite rightly thrown off the train at Crewe.

As this was the last train and I think he was under 18 it made me think what is the normal course of action for someone in that situation.

I think in the end he ended up having to ask British Transport Police how to walk to Wolverhampton which made me think of the Oh Mr Porter tune.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It wouldn't have been the last train from Crewe-Wolves / Birmingham yesterday evening, there were another two services after it.

 

[yorkie]

I was on a late evening train from Manchester a few months ago and 2 lads also under 18 were also trying to get to Wolverhampton, and had no means to pay for tickets.

The staff on board the train informed me they had a duty of care, and could not simply chuck them off. BTP met the train at Wolverhampton, presumably BTP took them home.

 

[Crossover]

I was on a late evening train from Manchester a few months ago and 2 lads also under 18 were also trying to get to Wolverhampton, and had no means to pay for tickets.

The staff on board the train informed me they had a duty of care, and could not simply chuck them off. BTP met the train at Wolverhampton, presumably BTP took them home.

That was also not the last service...just next to last. The sods got to journey in First Class too mostly...

 

[Fare-Cop]

I was on a late evening train from Manchester a few months ago and 2 lads also under 18 were also trying to get to Wolverhampton, and had no means to pay for tickets.

The staff on board the train informed me they had a duty of care, and could not simply chuck them off. BTP met the train at Wolverhampton, presumably BTP took them home.

Whilst neither the TOCs or BTP will normally take these matters to Youth Courts there is no legal reason why they cannot.

If Rail Staff call them for assistance to identify the traveller, BTP will certainly have had to log the incident and record the travellers' details although we do know that occasionally, some officers have the mistaken belief that there is nothing they can do.

These lads quite probably were reported and will be facing a bill for more than the fare.

 

[thenorthern]

I think the lad I saw tried sitting in Coach A and attempted to hide when he saw the conductor coming, it didn't work though and I know he didn't try and catch the Liverpool to Birmingham train.

It kind of serves him right though.

 

[Mojo]

That was also not the last service..

He didn't say it was the last service

 

[Crossover]

He didn't say it was the last service

I was merely clarifying

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A good friend of mine was Assistant Station Manager at Crewe in BR days - and a few chancers often tried (or sometimes asked) for a free ride home to Stoke , Preston or wherever late at night. His measured response was to get them removed by the BTP with a suggestion they try that tack at the local cab firm ...

 

[Rich McLean]

In my view, there certainly is a duty of care. They shouldn't be kicked off at unstaffed shacks, but at staffed stations, then I don't see a problem.

However, their parents should be contacted, and given options:
1) Collect them
2) See if their parents are willing to pay for their travel via a UFPN any additional admin costs.
3) If none of the above prove successful, contact the BTP

Also if an RPI is available at said staffed station, even though they are under 18, am I right in thinking they can still be written up for prosecution?

I don't see any issues with the above, apart from the time it takes, but minors shouldn't just be thrown off a train without any further action being taken.

 

[island]

It would be a SILK rather than a UPFN, but the point is good

 

[Stigy]

Depends on how old they are, plus company policy on duty of care. As long as they're not under 16, duty of care shouldn't be an issue. Of course common sense should prevail if they're lone females (or even males...) if kicking them off at an unmanned station.

Also, unless I'm missing something, the OP did actually say it was the last train...just saying...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It would be a SILK rather than a UPFN, but the point is good

Might depend on the situation. A SILK could require two open ticket offices, a UFN would require one member of staff with a UFN pad.

 

[island]

I seem to remember it coming up on another thread that under-18s couldn't be issued UPFNs because it involves a debt and the contract would be voidable. But I could have remembered it wrongly.

 

[Flamingo]

I seem to remember it coming up on another thread that under-18s couldn't be issued UPFNs because it involves a debt and the contract would be voidable. But I could have remembered it wrongly.

They can be issued, and there is a space for the parent/guardian name and passenger DOB.

What can be done to get them paid is the question...

 

[thenorthern]

It wasn't the last train on Saturday no but I think it was almost 10 though when I got to Crewe, the simple way though to avoid this issue is to buy a ticket, I do it and I have never been kicked off any train ever.

 

[route:oxford]

If you're not going to treat people over 16 as adults, how is it possible to charge them an adult fare?

 

[Stigy]

A UFN can be issued to an under 18, although the TOC would not go beyond sending threatening letters and adding admin charges to it. To cancel it and go to the Mags court would be a nightmare as they'll been to use a youth court etc. of a UFN for an under goes unpaid then at least there will be the start of a record of non-payment so when they do turn 18 staff will obviously be less lenient.

 

[Clip]

If you're not going to treat people over 16 as adults, how is it possible to charge them an adult fare?

There is no such thing as an adult fare.

 

[yorkie]

There is no such thing as an adult fare.

When will the booking engines be updated to reflect that?

 

[Haywain]

There is no such thing as an adult fare.

A reduced rate ticket is offered for children. Therefore the unreduced fare must be for an adult. Or do you define those who are not children as something other than adults?

 

[bunnahabhain]

A reduced rate ticket is offered for children. Therefore the unreduced fare must be for an adult. Or do you define those who are not children as something other than adults?

I certainly do if they've been drinking heavily, or to the nag racing (which seems to involve drinking heavily).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I seem to remember it coming up on another thread that under-18s couldn't be issued UPFNs because it involves a debt and the contract would be voidable.

Under 18s can enter into contracts, and incur debts, for "essential living costs". Whether a train fare is an essential is open to debate I suppose.

 

[OLJR]

I saw a lad "without means to pay" on Peterborough to Norwich (or perhaps the way) once. After pressing from the guard and threatening to have the police come on and arrest him he revealed a hundred pounds or so hidden in his sock...

 

[sheff1]

There is no such thing as an adult fare.

Presumably there is a hidden meaning in this ?

If I use NRE or a TOC site to check fares I need to state whether I want an adult or child price.

Every ticket I have purchased recently has 'one adult' printed on it.

 

[sarahj]

I saw a lad "without means to pay" on Peterborough to Norwich (or perhaps the way) once. After pressing from the guard and threatening to have the police come on and arrest him he revealed a hundred pounds or so hidden in his sock...

You would be supprised by the ammount of people who wont pay, but when the police get invloved, they often have rolls of cash, and sometimes other substances. A few years ago we were plagued with a group who would come down from london to Brighton on a weekend for 'business'. On the first trains home they would buy one stop tickets to get through the barrier and kick off when challenged. One day BTP did an operation, they were all caught, will rolls of cash, and also done for supply and possesion. I've also had a pass who would not pay, btp got involved. Pass had cash, and a knife, and was wanted on a warrant. All for a 3.20 fare.:roll:

 

[fowler9]

You would be supprised by the ammount of people who wont pay, but when the police get invloved, they often have rolls of cash, and sometimes other substances. A few years ago we were plagued with a group who would come down from london to Brighton on a weekend for 'business'. On the first trains home they would buy one stop tickets to get through the barrier and kick off when challenged. One day BTP did an operation, they were all caught, will rolls of cash, and also done for supply and possesion. I've also had a pass who would not pay, btp got involved. Pass had cash, and a knife, and was wanted on a warrant. All for a 3.20 fare.:roll:

Blimey, there are some lovely people out there. I know I can have a moan sometimes but generally speaking.....

 

[Tetchytyke]

You would be supprised by the ammount of people who wont pay, but when the police get invloved, they often have rolls of cash, and sometimes other substances.

I wouldn't be surprised, given the native intellect of these people, but I probably should be. If I had large amounts of money and substances about my person, I'd not be kicking off about a £3.20 fare, I'd be keeping PC Plod as far away from me as humanly possible.

 

[6Gman]

You would be supprised by the ammount of people who wont pay, but when the police get invloved, they often have rolls of cash, and sometimes other substances. A few years ago we were plagued with a group who would come down from london to Brighton on a weekend for 'business'. On the first trains home they would buy one stop tickets to get through the barrier and kick off when challenged. One day BTP did an operation, they were all caught, will rolls of cash, and also done for supply and possesion. I've also had a pass who would not pay, btp got involved. Pass had cash, and a knife, and was wanted on a warrant. All for a 3.20 fare.:roll:

And this is why I have serious respect for Guards (incl. Conductors, Train Managers etc) who actually have to go out and face our charming public.

 

[fowler9]

And this is why I have serious respect for Guards (incl. Conductors, Train Managers etc) who actually have to go out and face our charming public.

I agree with that. Most people are alright though, you just never hear anything from them because they are alright.