Ticket office closures

[neilmc]

I don't think the real issue is with cash versus card, for most shopping payment is made by card nowadays but for buying odd small items or if you are just buying something you know can only be obtained at an artisan store cash is still common. The issue with the railways is that the ticketing system is unduly complex and the TOCs will enjoy PFing or even prosecuting people who've been forced to buy tickets from a machine which offered them a lack of choice or the incorrect choice as first option, and they pushed the wrong button.

I was in Budapest last summer and was wanting to go out to Szentendre on the local rail network, we took the tram to the nearest interchange station, and there was no ticket office! However the machines had an English option, which even pointed out that the add-on ticket you needed to buy from the boundary station if you already had a city pass. I haven't the confidence in the UK ticketing network or the TOCs to offer anything comparable to this experience

And the massive benefit of this is that if the kid is stranded you can transfer as much as is necessary to get them home safely without just giving them a £20 note and risking it'll be stolen by bullies or spent on sweets, and you can see that that's what they spent it on, too. And if the card is lost or stolen by bullies it can be stopped, unlike cash in a wallet or pocket.

It's inconceivable to me that anyone in 2023 wouldn't want their kid to have one of these, even with a fee (which is quite small, a couple of quid a month I think, on the ones that charge).

From age 16 (mid 1990s) I had an authorised user card on my Dad's credit card, with a strict rule of "you phone and ask me before you use it". That obviously carried an element of trust. But why would you not have something that has the capability of that without the trust risk and at more or less any age where a kid would be out unaccompanied? And obviously if old enough they can have a conventional online-only debit card on their bank account anyway, I think that's from 13?

I know of people who give their credit card AND PIN to their teenager and send them out to the shop for a few items when they can't be bothered putting their shoes and coat on themselves. I think you'll all know what happened next!

 

[Jimini]

Or just do away with photocards and accept the odd bit of passing around. They already have for weeklies.

Have they?

 

[43066]

Or as two chains found out recently in my town, going cashless made most of their customers go elsewhere, they both backtracked within a week.
I generally use card but I do like the option of cash too. There are many good reasons (which this isn't the place to go into them) why an entirely cashless society is a bad idea.

Whether or not society as a whole should abandon cash, there are good reasons for certain businesses to go cashless, and the railway is one of them: improved personal security of staff who no longer have to carry change floats, and reduction in cash handling costs being two key benefits.

London buses have been entirely cashless for many years. I can’t see many arguments against the railway going cashless that wouldn’t also apply to buses (bus fares tending to be cheaper, and the demographic using them being poorer/less educated than your average rail passenger), yet they not only make it work, but the system is far better as a result.

 

[OuterDistant]

Quite. For a business, accepting cash is almost always a downside: risk of theft / skimming, vulnerability to counterfeit notes, vulnerability to scam artists ("no, I gave you a twenty"), arguments about the wrong change, time spent counting it up, time spent paying into a bank, etc.

 

[GWVillager]

London buses have been entirely cashless for many years. I can’t see many arguments against the railway going cashless that wouldn’t also apply to buses (bus fares tending to be cheaper, and the demographic using them being poorer/less educated than your average rail passenger), yet they not only make it work, but the system is far better as a result.

The thing here is that Oyster cards exist, which can (I think, at least) be topped up by cash and don’t require any identification or linked bank card etc. The railway, by and large, does not have this, though you could very much argue it should.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think the real issue is with cash versus card...

Indeed; the closure of ticket offices does not prevent people using cash at all. It's already the case that many journeys are made from stations which either do not have a facility to pay by cash or where the facility is not open.

The issue with the railways is that the ticketing system is unduly complex and the TOCs will enjoy PFing or even prosecuting people who've been forced to buy tickets from a machine which offered them a lack of choice or the incorrect choice as first option, and they pushed the wrong button.

This is a separate issue; I've addressed it elsewhere. But the tail should not be allowed to wag the dog and even if every station had a ticket office open 24/7, the problem you describe would still exist (it shouldm't exist at all, of course!)

One thing I never see discussed enough (it may have been mentioned up thread but I’ve already read 4 pages and another 2 have already been added!) is how this will affect children travelling alone. Many TVMs (possibly most) only accept card payments, and many children obviously do not have a card...

It is already the case that anyone can travel, paying by cash, from any of the thousands of stations which do not have ticket offices, or from stations which do but are not open at the time of travel. I am not aware of any proposals to change this.

 

[GWVillager]

It is already the case that anyone can travel, paying by cash, from any of the thousands of stations which do not have ticket offices, or from stations which do but are not open at the time of travel. I am not aware of any proposals to change this.

Is it? I must apologise, I don’t really understand what you mean here, as I said most TVMs don’t accept cash. Do guards?

 

[yorkie]

Is it? I must apologise, I don’t really understand what you mean here, as I said most TVMs don’t accept cash. Do guards?

Cash is a valid payment method. If the station you board at has no facility (at the time of travel) to accept cash, you are entitled to board the train and pay at the first opportunity.

Most trains have staff on board; not all Guards can issue tickets (e.g. Merseyrail, SWR inner suburban etc) but most can. Those trains which do not have Guards may have staff whose role is dedicated to customer service (e.g. Lumo and many others, such as the electric trains on Scotrail in the Glasgow area). If there are no staff on the train who can issue tickets (e.g. the vast majority of CrossRail or Thameslink services, among others), or those staff do not reach the customer, then there is no opportunity at that stage for the passenger to pay for the journey.

There may be another opportunity, such as at the exit station, or the interchange statioon (if applicable), but in some cases there is simply no opportunity to pay; if that happens then the journey is effectively complimentary.

 

[AdamWW]

Is it? I must apologise, I don’t really understand what you mean here, as I said most TVMs don’t accept cash. Do guards?

Yes guards accept cash (maybe there are exceptions).

The conditions of travel (NRCoT) say (6.1.1) that you don't need to purchase before you travel if a self-service ticket machine won't accept your only available method of payment (card or cash).

(Though 6.1.3 seems to cover some of the same ground again as 6.1.1 but says that it's OK if the machine won't accept your preferred method of payment. I don't know why there seem to be overlapping rules but I imagine that under consumer law the more generous one would take effect).

Byelaw 18 makes no exception for methods of payment so since contracts can't override the law I presume that technically the railway could prosecute someone for not using a card-only machine if they only had cash. I do not suppose however that they would do so.

 

[yorkie]

Whether or not society as a whole should abandon cash, there are good reasons for certain businesses to go cashless, and the railway is one of them: improved personal security of staff who no longer have to carry change floats, and reduction in cash handling costs being two key benefits.

London buses have been entirely cashless for many years. I can’t see many arguments against the railway going cashless that wouldn’t also apply to buses (bus fares tending to be cheaper, and the demographic using them being poorer/less educated than your average rail passenger), yet they not only make it work, but the system is far better as a result.

There was a debate 5 years ago regarding this theoretical scenario:

Could the railway cease accepting cash?

On this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-issue-penalty-fares-after-ticket-office-left-unmanned.169976/page-9#post-3659948 ...it was reported that: One consideration probably mentioned re the card only TVMs is the (not that well reported) spate of break-ins at Metrolink's...

www.railforums.co.uk

Also a more recent thread regarding the wider issues:

Is the use of cash dying out?

Do you mean the distinction between an Oyster card (the card which stores money) and a contactless bank card (which just represents an account where the money is stored)? mods note - split from here. Of course not - I'm comparing either/both of these (neither of which is physical cash in your...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yes guards accept cash (maybe there are exceptions)...

Not all Guards are commercial Guards; non-commercial Guards cannot issue any tickets. But those who can issue tickets, do accept cash.

Conversely not all trains have Guards; those which do not have Guards may have staff whose role is dedicated to customer service matters (including the checking and issuing of tickets); examples include Lumo, Scotrail electrics in the Glasgow area, and others.

Some trains are unstaffed other than the driver, while others may consist of multiple units which do not have a corridor connection and only have staff (or only have ticket issuing staff) in one portion of the train; this can happen on various TOCs such as Northern, TPE, CrossCountry and others. If the passenger walked the length of what they see as 'the train' they may not see any staff. In this case there is no opportunity to pay; staff being present in the other portion of the train wouldn't change that fact.

But none of this makes any difference to the fact that customers are entitled to pay using cash and may board the train without having purchased a ticket, if there is no facility to take cash at their origin station.

 

[43066]

From age 16 (mid 1990s) I had an authorised user card on my Dad's credit card, with a strict rule of "you phone and ask me before you use it". That obviously carried an element of trust. But why would you not have something that has the capability of that without the trust risk and at more or less any age where a kid would be out unaccompanied? And obviously if old enough they can have a conventional online-only debit card on their bank account anyway, I think that's from 13?

I had similar (I suspect I’m a few years behind you). I wasn’t trusted with my dad’s credit card(!) but I had a basic bank account linked to a Visa Electron card that IIRC could be used in certain shops.

If you or I were able to have bank accounts as kids in the 1990s is absolutely ludicrous for anyone should be suggesting that people are unable to access these facilities in 2023.

The thing here is that Oyster cards exist, which can (I think, at least) be topped up by cash and don’t require any identification or linked bank card etc. The railway, by and large, does not have this, though you could very much argue it should.

Oyster is old hat, I haven’t used one for years. Contactless is the way forward and, even where you can’t directly tap in, it is accepted by all TVMs AIUI. Agreed this should be rolled out network wide.

Local journeys can be paid for via a card at a TVM, longer distance journeys are typically going to cost more than people would be prepared to pay for in cash, so who exactly is needing to use cash to pay for train tickets?

Cash is a valid payment method. If the station you board at has no facility (at the time of travel) to accept cash, you are entitled to board the train.

I think an important qualification there is that you can do so if you intend to pay in cash and can’t pay in any other way!

 

[yorkie]

I think an important qualification there is that you can do so if you intend to pay in cash and can’t pay in any other way!

Cash is a valid payment method; intending to pay by cash is sufficient.

There is no requirement to be unable to pay by any other payment method, nor would any other party be able to establish whether or not a customer was able to pay by another method; this has been debated before in relevant threads.

 

[AdamWW]

I think an important qualification there is that you can do so if you intend to pay in cash and can’t pay in any other way!

Are you sure about the "can't pay in another way" bit?

NRCoT 6.1.3:

6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because:

6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed;

or 6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash);
[\quote]

(My bold).

I appreciate (as I said above) that 6.1.1 says otherwise and there is no mention at all of different payment methods in Byelaw 18.

 

[yorkie]

Let's say that hypothetically that the railway did not allow the preferred method of payment and said it had to be any available payment method, how would any member of staff be able to figure out if the customer held a payment card (OK they may be able to see it; my advice to anyone paying by cash is to not display any sort of card, to avoid this), but let's say they saw a payment card in the customers' wallet; then:

1. it may not be possible to determine if a card is a personal or company card (or is a second cardholder for an account held by someone else)
2. it would absolutely not be possible to determine if there is sufficient balance / credit held on the card to make the purchase.

Therefore, even if the NRCoT did not include the provision for customers to use their preferred method of payment, then it would not actually be possible for any rail employee to categorically state that a passenger had the ability to pay by card.

But this has all been debated before in previous threads and this issue exists at many stations (either at all times of day or certain times of day), regardless of the proposals to close ticket offices.

 

[Silenos]

Then we can get rid of TVMs as well as ticket offices and the tap of a debit or credit card should be far easier than anything that came before.

Discounts akin to advance fares could be given based on passenger loading based BI systems like we use in the Airports.

So it would be a lottery, and you wouldn’t know when you tapped in what your fare was going to be? And would you tap in/out several times if you were travelling with a party (and hope the machine registered the required number if there wasn’t a barrier)?

I think loss of all TVMs as well as the ticket offices would be problematic, personally. However, several posters have suggested that it is essential that all fares be available from TVMs and I wonder if this is technically possible. There are a number of different types of TVM on the network (someone on here will undoubtedly know how many) and I wonder if the requisite software updates are actually possible for all of them. It may not still be the case but when I lived in South-East London the TVM at my local station used to only provide tickets whose starting point was that station, so you couldn’t ask for an ‘add-on’ to an existing valid ticket, for example.

 

[43066]

Cash is a valid payment method; intending to pay by cash is sufficient.

There is no requirement to be unable to pay by any other payment method, nor would any other party be able to establish whether or not a customer was able to pay by another method; this has been debated before in relevant threads.

Are you sure about the "can't pay in another way" bit?

NRCoT 6.1.3:






(My bold).

I appreciate (as I said above) that 6.1.1 says otherwise and there is no mention at all of different payment methods in Byelaw 18.

Fair comments both - apologies, I was misremembering 6.1.1 which refers to only available method of payment in relation to permits to travel.

 

[RPI]

Whether or not society as a whole should abandon cash, there are good reasons for certain businesses to go cashless, and the railway is one of them: improved personal security of staff who no longer have to carry change floats, and reduction in cash handling costs being two key benefits.

London buses have been entirely cashless for many years. I can’t see many arguments against the railway going cashless that wouldn’t also apply to buses (bus fares tending to be cheaper, and the demographic using them being poorer/less educated than your average rail passenger), yet they not only make it work, but the system is far better as a result.

I disagree, the personal security issue isn't really an issue anymore as I take so little cash - which may seem like I'm proving the case, but it should always be an option at least. The other week when Mastercard died for a day shows that a backup is always needed. I hardly use cash myself but always have an emergency tenner in my wallet, which brings me back to TVM's, I think there is now more of a case for having ones that do accept cash as they'd take nowhere near the amount of cash to make them worth ram-raiding.

 

[MikeWM]

Quite. For a business, accepting cash is almost always a downside: risk of theft / skimming, vulnerability to counterfeit notes, vulnerability to scam artists ("no, I gave you a twenty"), arguments about the wrong change, time spent counting it up, time spent paying into a bank, etc.

Conversely there are downsides to business and customers from only accepting cards too, not least that the almost duopoly we now have in the card market (Visa and Mastercard) have inevitably taken the opportunity to ratchet up their fees

https://brc.org.uk/news/finance/card-market-review-a-regulatory-failure/

In 2020 and again in September 2021, the British Retail Consortium (BRC), British Independent Retailers Association (BIRA), Association of Convenience Stores (ACS), Federation of Small Businesses (FSB), and UKHospitality have jointly called for immediate action to tackle soaring card fees which add to the price of goods and services.

which is only likely to get worse if alternatives wither away.

--

So it would be a lottery, and you wouldn’t know when you tapped in what your fare was going to be?

Even now I would argue that people don't seem to sufficiently appreciate the psychological difference between handing over a £10 note for their journey (or indeed payment by card at the ticket office/TVM, where you clearly see the amount that is to be charged before paying), compared with the 'contactless' method of effectively offering your entire bank account for their journey and hoping that the correct amount is deducted later. Many people are clearly happy with doing this - but many other people are not.

--

The thing here is that Oyster cards exist, which can (I think, at least) be topped up by cash and don’t require any identification or linked bank card etc.

...until something or other inevitably goes wrong and you need to try to get a refund from TfL. And you can't even set up an account with them now without giving them a mobile phone number...

 

[Philip]

To those who are calling for most ticket offices to close and cite efficiency as a reason, how is it efficient if they're closing the office but still paying the same number of staff who will instead be working outside rather than inside the office? The new multi-role station position will likely be paid more than the current ticket office rate, so where are the savings?

 

[Sleepy]

Or just do away with photocards and accept the odd bit of passing around. They already have for weeklies.

That said, if ITSO is the future for seasons a personalised ITSO card with photo orderable online or by post isn't a stretch.

Weeklies do require a photocard, I think that it was stopped for 7 day travelcards in zones 1-9 only.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder to everyone that discission should be confined to the topic of ticket office closures.

thanks

 

[al78]

I disagree, the personal security issue isn't really an issue anymore as I take so little cash - which may seem like I'm proving the case, but it should always be an option at least. The other week when Mastercard died for a day shows that a backup is always needed. I hardly use cash myself but always have an emergency tenner in my wallet, which brings me back to TVM's, I think there is now more of a case for having ones that do accept cash as they'd take nowhere near the amount of cash to make them worth ram-raiding.

Or in my case when unknown to me, my bank suspended my account at the time my debit card was about to expire and I didn't realise until I contacted them to ask why they hadn't sent a replacement. Fortunately after enquiry and investigation at their end they couldn't find a reason why it had been suspended so my account was reactivated and I received a new debit card a couple of days later. I do have a credit card as well which I can use to get cash out of a machine (with a significant charge) if I really needed too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have they?

I don't know about other TOCs but LNR's website clearly states you don't need a photocard for a weekly season ticket:

Season train tickets

Save money on regular travel with Season Tickets.

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

What is a photocard and why do I need one?​

You will need to be able to produce a National Rail Photocard (as a form of ID) to buy and travel with a Season Ticket with a validity period of 28 days/1 month or longer. Ticket offices offer these for free; all you need to do is provide a recent passport-type photograph of yourself.
If you are unable to access a ticket office and are purchasing online, we can also accept a standard form of ID - for example a driver's licence, as proof of identification.

It's also interesting that LNR already state it doesn't have to be a Railway photocard!

 

[al78]

Easy. Either:

1) you buy it as an e-ticket, and get the refund that way
2) even easier, You check if the train is running before buying a ticket, and don’t even buy it.

3) There was one instance when I was about to travel to Exeter for a job interview. I bought a ticket at the window, waited for my train and as it was approaching, got a phone call to tell me the interview was cancelled because heavy snow had made travelling difficult for some of the interview panel. I was able to go back to the ticket office and get a refund on the basis that my journey was now redundant. If I had bought the equivalent e-ticket could I have got a refund in this situation?

 

[Bald Rick]

If you or I were able to have bank accounts as kids in the 1990s is absolutely ludicrous for anyone should be suggesting that people are unable to access these facilities in 2023.

I had a card based bank account as a mid teenager - in the 80s… The only problem then was having somewhere to spend it !

how is it efficient if they're closing the office but still paying the same number of staff who will instead be working outside rather than inside the office?

Because there won’t be the same number of staff. I thought that was obvious.

If I had bought the equivalent e-ticket could I have got a refund in this situation?

Yes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

3) There was one instance when I was about to travel to Exeter for a job interview. I bought a ticket at the window, waited for my train and as it was approaching, got a phone call to tell me the interview was cancelled because heavy snow had made travelling difficult for some of the interview panel. I was able to go back to the ticket office and get a refund on the basis that my journey was now redundant. If I had bought the equivalent e-ticket could I have got a refund in this situation?

Most booking offices will do a fee-free "non-issue" for this sort of case where the ticket was bought from them or from a TVM at that station (or in some cases any station of that TOC), which avoids the admin fee for a refund. You indeed can't get this if you bought online, but they probably shouldn't really do it anyway unless the reason for abandoning the trip was disruption.

 

[AdamWW]

Most booking offices will do a fee-free "non-issue" for this sort of case where the ticket was bought from them or from a TVM at that station (or in some cases any station of that TOC), which avoids the admin fee for a refund. You indeed can't get this if you bought online, but they probably shouldn't really do it anyway unless the reason for abandoning the trip was disruption.

It's perfectly valid to charge less than £10 admin fee, isn't it?

Anyway here's another saving from getting rid of booking offices...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's perfectly valid to charge less than £10 admin fee, isn't it?

Yes, and Trainline (much maligned) does charge a sliding scale of fees for lower value purchases.

It's not whether the TOC is allowed to waive the £10 - they clearly are - it's whether those individual staff are meant to be using the non-issue process to waive it.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes, and Trainline (much maligned) does charge a sliding scale of fees for lower value purchases.

It's not whether the TOC is allowed to waive the £10 - they clearly are - it's whether those individual staff are meant to be using the non-issue process to waive it.

Ah I understand now.

 

[Jimini]

I don't know about other TOCs but LNR's website clearly states you don't need a photocard for a weekly season ticket:

Season train tickets

Save money on regular travel with Season Tickets.

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

It's also interesting that LNR already state it doesn't have to be a Railway photocard!

Interesting, ta. Avanti still ask for a photocard number before issuing weeklies, so must vary by TOC indeed.