Ticketing Anomalies - Starting a journey short

[chris parkinson]

Are there some good examples where it pays to buy a ticket from a station that is further away, but the train subsequently stops at the station you wish to travel from - i.e. starting your journey 'short' ?

I gather this is technically against the NR CoC.

 

[Old Timer]

Are there some good examples where it pays to buy a ticket from a station that is further away, but the train subsequently stops at the station you wish to travel from - i.e. starting your journey 'short' ?

I gather this is technically against the NR CoC.

There is no "Technically" about it.

A ticket purchased from a station further out from that which is used to join the train (and which is cheaper than the published fare from the station you are joining at) is invalid because the cheaper priced ticket is only valid for the throughout journey from that station to destination.

Using such a ticket in such circumstances constitutes "obtaining goods or services by deception", because you are fraudulently obtaining the journey.

The above does not apply if the ticket is a full fare ticket for obvious reasons.

 

[chris parkinson]

I apologise for inappropriate language.

I do not wish to dispute the legality of starting a journey short - for sure, its against the rules [for AP tickets].

I am more interested in establishing whether there are some interesting examples which remain within our current 'intricate' fares structure, and whether these examples are easily justified with regard to the optimal market segementation that TOC's seek.

 

[yorkie]

how is 'starting short' against the rules? providing it's not specifically prohibited (eg. Advance) it is fine.

there are many examples.

e.g. chorley to leeds (from manchester ) at peak time, poppleton to leeds for 2 people (from york) and many more....

 

[clagmonster]

The NRCoC state:
"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications"
I believe that the only tickets for which break of journey is prohibited are advance and the outeard portion of some savers, dependent on the restriction code for which you have to ask one of the TOCs if it is permitted or not. This to me is perfectly clear cut, you can start a journey mid way through what you have paid for.

 

[Mojo]

There are a number of occasions where you may want to buy a certain ticket type (eg. SOR vs 2xSDS) and in which case it may be better to book further out. I went from Bristol Temple Meads to Gatwick Airport in September and bought from Montpelier as I wanted a return.

 

[nedchester]

There is no "Technically" about it.

A ticket purchased from a station further out from that which is used to join the train (and which is cheaper than the published fare from the station you are joining at) is invalid because the cheaper priced ticket is only valid for the throughout journey from that station to destination.

Using such a ticket in such circumstances constitutes "obtaining goods or services by deception", because you are fraudulently obtaining the journey.

The above does not apply if the ticket is a full fare ticket for obvious reasons.

Rubbish!!

Crewe to Shrewsbury CDR is £10.10
Chester to Shrewsbury CDR (valid via Crewe) is £8.20

If you're at Crewe and off to Shrewsbury ask for a ticket from Chester. No fraud just a fault of the system.

A frequent one in the past was buying a Shotton to London SVR which was valid on all trains out and back and using it from Chester at peak times. Virgin caught on to this but still the Shotton ticket is valid on trains that get an hour earlier to London and valid on all trains on the return after 0905 (I think). So if travelling from Chester and want to return in the peak get a Shotton ticket) Restrictions on a SVR is that you cannot break your journey on the outward part. But if you START at Chester rather than Shotton you haven't broken your journey merely started short. Not against the rules.

 

[Old Timer]

I really am starting to wonder about this Forum.

If you buy a ticket at a cheaper price from a station further out, and then use it for a shorter journey you are committing fraud in law because you are not paying the correct price of the journey being undertaken. The legal phrase is "obtaining goods or services by deception", and when I was an SM we had the odd case which we pursued to Prosecution.

Once again the fact is that you enter into a Contract with the Railway TOC for the journey you are making, and therefore you are required to pay the fare for that journey as part of that Contract. Using a ticket from a station further out which is cheaper is therefore negating the Contract as you are NOT travelling from that station.

Having re-read the Conditions of Carriage they appear to assume that passengers are acting in a responsible manner and are not trying to work the system.

I have to say it appears to me that a number of people on here are deliberating encouraging fraudulent travel, yet these are the very same people who whinge loudly when experienced staff talk of deliberate fare evasion :roll::roll: by complaining that we treat everyone as being on the fiddle.

Sadly there is much here to back up our opinions.

 

[yorkie]

The tickets that prohibit BOJ are a slightly debateable case, but there are not many tickets where this applies - nearly all just Advance (with a few Off Peak SVRs thrown in, which are themselves dubious given the fact that Off Peak was meant to allow BOJ in simplification) - with a CDR or similar ticket there is no question that it is valid. It's certainly not fraud. The TOCs commit fraud daily by overcharging in my opinion. I estimate the amount obtained by overcharging to be many millions of pounds.

 

[87015]

Having re-read the Conditions of Carriage they appear to assume that passengers are acting in a responsible manner and are not trying to work the system.

Might help if the system wasn't such a farce and rip-off mechanism.

 

[Old Timer]

There is no debate against a ticket which prohibits a break of journey :roll::roll::roll:

What part of that is NOT clear. Break of journey NOT allowed, ergo not valid to join the train at another station :roll:

Provided that the fare paid exceeds the minimum available fare at the station being joined, then there is no problem. It is a criminal offence to deliberately avoid paying the correct fare for the journey being undertaken.

Using a ticket from a different station to gain financial advantage is theft.

Dealt with it, seen them Prosecuted, and fined.

 

[yorkie]

I really am starting to wonder about this Forum..

Why ? because we read the 2009 NCoC and not recall rules from the 1970s?

I like hearing stories about what the railway was like, 'back in the day', but there's a time and a place, and the ticket advice section isn't it.

 

[Old Timer]

...The TOCs commit fraud daily by overcharging in my opinion. I estimate the amount obtained by overcharging to be many millions of pounds.

And that of course is the basis upon which you advise people is it ?

Your beliefs are your beliefs not a defence against fare evasion.

 

[OwlMan]

I really am starting to wonder about this Forum.

If you buy a ticket at a cheaper price from a station further out, and then use it for a shorter journey you are committing fraud in law because you are not paying the correct price of the journey being undertaken. The legal phrase is "obtaining goods or services by deception", and when I was an SM we had the odd case which we pursued to Prosecution.

Once again the fact is that you enter into a Contract with the Railway TOC for the journey you are making, and therefore you are required to pay the fare for that journey as part of that Contract. Using a ticket from a station further out which is cheaper is therefore negating the Contract as you are NOT travelling from that station.

Having re-read the Conditions of Carriage they appear to assume that passengers are acting in a responsible manner and are not trying to work the system.

I have to say it appears to me that a number of people on here are deliberating encouraging fraudulent travel, yet these are the very same people who whinge loudly when experienced staff talk of deliberate fare evasion :roll::roll: by complaining that we treat everyone as being on the fiddle.

Sadly there is much here to back up our opinions.

Perhaps you should read the National Conditions of Carriage (My highlights)

C. USE OF TICKETS
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.
If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of
the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
used.
A ticket which entitles you to travel on the London Underground and/or
Docklands Light Railway does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at any of
the stations on these networks unless it is a Season Ticket or a Travelcard.
For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your
journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start
your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.
17.

 

[Old Timer]

Perhaps YOU should read my posts properly

 

[yorkie]

There is no debate against a ticket which prohibits a break of journey :roll::roll::roll:

What part of that is NOT clear. Break of journey NOT allowed, ergo not valid to join the train at another station :roll:

That is exactly where the debate lies.

But what about Nedchester's CDR example? Do you admit that it is valid? It is not a "full fare" ticket, but it is valid for starting short.

Provided that the fare paid exceeds the minimum available fare at the station being joined, then there is no problem.

Ah, I see what you did there. You made a rule up!

It is a criminal offence to deliberately avoid paying the correct fare for the journey being undertaken.

What is incorrect about paying for a longer journey?

Using a ticket from a different station to gain financial advantage is theft.

Dealt with it, seen them Prosecuted, and fined.

Nope, it isn't. Please provide details of the cases where people were prosecuted for starting short?

 

[Old Timer]

Perhaps you should read the National Conditions of Carriage (My highlights)

Perhaps you should also quote in context

However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

 

[nedchester]

I really am starting to wonder about this Forum.

If you buy a ticket at a cheaper price from a station further out, and then use it for a shorter journey you are committing fraud in law because you are not paying the correct price of the journey being undertaken. The legal phrase is "obtaining goods or services by deception", and when I was an SM we had the odd case which we pursued to Prosecution.

Once again the fact is that you enter into a Contract with the Railway TOC for the journey you are making, and therefore you are required to pay the fare for that journey as part of that Contract. Using a ticket from a station further out which is cheaper is therefore negating the Contract as you are NOT travelling from that station.

Having re-read the Conditions of Carriage they appear to assume that passengers are acting in a responsible manner and are not trying to work the system.

I have to say it appears to me that a number of people on here are deliberating encouraging fraudulent travel, yet these are the very same people who whinge loudly when experienced staff talk of deliberate fare evasion :roll::roll: by complaining that we treat everyone as being on the fiddle.

Sadly there is much here to back up our opinions.

You'll be telling me next that split ticketing is illegal because the first of a series of tickets used is not the one for the journey being made.

The Chester/Crewe to Shrewsbury is valid even clearly pointed out by the conditions of carriage.

Same applies with stopping short. Again a local example for me is Chester to Crewe £8.60 Chester to Shrewsbury £8.20. OK it's only 40p but when going to Crewe I would buy the Shrewsbury ticket and why not.

 

[John @ home]

Are there some good examples where it pays to buy a ticket from a station that is further away, but the train subsequently stops at the station you wish to travel from - i.e. starting your journey 'short' ?

Yes, many. Rather too many to attempt a comprehensive list here.

I gather this is technically against the NR CoC.

Sometimes. Sometimes not. It depends on the ticket type and the conditions of the particular fare. The relevant part of the NRCoC is:

C. USE OF TICKETS
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

You need to look up the conditions for the ticket type, and sometimes even the particular journey within a ticket type. For example an Off-Peak Return from Leeds to Warrington Stations allows break of journey:

From : 8487 LEEDS
To : 0445 WARRINGTON STNS
Route : 00000 - ANY PERMITTED
SVR - OFF-PEAK RETURN TPE
1 Adult @£ 21.10
Standard Class Return ...
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW) ...
NOTES:
BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is allowed on Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code.

But an Off-Peak Return from Leeds to Bangor Gwynedd does not allow it on the outward leg:

From : 8487 LEEDS
To : 2471 BANGOR (GWYNEDD)
Route : 00000 - ANY PERMITTED
SVR - OFF-PEAK RETURN TPE
1 Adult @£ 60.60
Standard Class Return ...
Restriction : 8A
Available as listed below on any day.
OUTWARD TRAVEL Valid on any train.
Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities.
RETURN TRAVEL Valid on any train.

A ticket purchased from a station further out from that which is used to join the train (and which is cheaper than the published fare from the station you are joining at) is invalid because the cheaper priced ticket is only valid for the throughout journey from that station to destination.

That is not a reason for making such a ticket invalid in the railway byelaws, the National Conditions of Carriage, the National Routeing Guide or the National Fares Manual. It is often the case that a cheaper, longer ticket can be used validly for a shorter journey. For example, a First Class Anytime Single from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central route XC only costs £2.50. The lowest priced ticket from Motherwell to Glasgow Central in the current Fares Manual is £3.30. The lowest priced First Class ticket is £8.20. But the £2.50 ticket can be used on the 0810 Motherwell - Glasgow Central 0829 tomorrow morning.

The above does not apply if the ticket is a full fare ticket for obvious reasons.

The rules no longer disinguish between full fare tickets and reduced price tickets in this way. Many Saver returns were renamed Anytime Returns during Fares Simplification in 2008 to reflect the fact that they are valid on any train. The £2.50 example above is valid on any XC train, but there are less than a handful of these daily on the route.

 

[yorkie]

The rules no longer disinguish between full fare tickets and reduced price tickets in this way.

Was it ever such a distinction though? If so, it must be a while back? For as long as I have known, (ok I am a newbie by OT's standards ) day return tickets formerly known as Cheap Day now known as Off Peak Day (CDR) tickets have allowed break of journey (BOJ) on outward and return legs. And, equally, for as long as I have known, Savers (SVR) tickets have allowed it on the return leg.

The NCoC doesn't explicitly state that starting short is prohibited on a ticket that does not allow a "break of journey", and "break of journey" is defined as leaving station premises. I'm also not aware of anyone being denied an exit when finishing short, but the ticket is considered forfeited and finished when that occurs. For example, for tickets where you get a cross-London transfer you cannot "break" that journey at somewhere like Oxford Circus. But you are allowed to get off there, you just can't get back on to the tube system and have to make your own way to the terminal.

If you look at Nedchester's examples, clearly the CDR one is valid. The Shotton SVR one is debatable. Old Timer - do you agree the CDR one is valid?

 

[Old Timer]

That is exactly where the debate lies.

But what about Nedchester's CDR example? Do you admit that it is valid? It is not a "full fare" ticket, but it is valid for starting short.

Ah, I see what you did there. You made a rule up!

What is incorrect about paying for a longer journey?

Nope, it isn't. Please provide details of the cases where people were prosecuted for starting short?

Here is the guidance from the CPS

You will often have a choice between specific legislation relating to the form of transport, and proceedings under the Theft Act 1978, or Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981.

Section 5 Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is usually used for offences of fare evasion on the railways for:

Both Section 5 and Section 103(a) are summary only offences. "Intent to avoid payment" in Section 5 does not mean a dishonest intent, but an intent to avoid payment of the sum actually due.

There are provisions in bye-laws which cover fare evasion, but in the vast majority of cases it will be appropriate to use the Section 5 offence.

Consider using the provisions of the Theft Act 1978, especially Sections 2 and 3, where there is evidence of premeditation, or persistence, or repeat offending, or large loss by the transport authority.

Where tickets have been altered or defaced consider a charge under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981.

The bold is mine

 

[yorkie]

Old Timer - could someone paying £8.20 for a Chester to Shrewsbury CDR (valid via Crewe) be prosecuted if starting short at Crewe for a journey to Shrewsbury (Crewe to Shrewsbury CDR is £10.10) in your opinion?

 

[Old Timer]

The Law is quite clear about this as highlighted. You are avoiding paying the correct fare for the journey.

Totally different to someone who has started from the correct station. You would have obtained a pecuniary advantage, which is considered fraud because you have avoided paying the correct fare.

THAT is the legal position.

As to whether a TOC takes action is a matter for them, but it is both reprehensible and irresponsible for anyone on the Forum to suggest another person deliberately acts in such a way as to avoid paying the correct fare for the journey.

 

[nedchester]

If you look at Nedchester's examples, clearly the CDR one is valid. The Shotton SVR one is debatable. Old Timer - do you agree the CDR one is valid?

Maybe the Shotton one is debatable but Virgin didn't go round prosecuting people who were using the tickets from Chester because of the 'grey' area. I suspect that had it gone to court then Virgin would have lost as often if there is a discrepancy in consumer law then the customer is deemed to be correct.

 

[Mojo]

How can it be illegal? The CofC explicitly states: You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station.

If I am on a line which includes stations
A > B > C > D > E > F > G
and buy a ticket from A to G, but only travel B to G, on a ticket where break of journey is permitted then how can it not be valid.

B is an intermediate station on a journey A to G, and it clearly says that I may start at an intermediate station.

 

[yorkie]

The Law is quite clear about this as highlighted. You are avoiding paying the correct fare for the journey.

So you are stating that a CDR cannot be started "short"?

Can an Anytime be started "short"?

 

[Helvellyn]

If someone were deliverately starting a journey short, day in, day out, then a TOC might take a particular interest in that, and gather evidence to show that someone was doing this. For a one-off case? Less likely something would be done about it, but never say never.

 

[nedchester]

How can it be illegal? The CofC explicitly states: You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station.

If I am on a line which includes stations
A > B > C > D > E > F > G
and buy a ticket from A to G, but only travel B to G, on a ticket where break of journey is permitted then how can it not be valid.

B is an intermediate station on a journey A to G, and it clearly says that I may start at an intermediate station.

Sadly 'Old timer' doesn't seem to understand. Stuck in a legal loop of his own making!

 

[yorkie]

If someone were deliverately starting a journey short, day in, day out, then a TOC might take a particular interest in that, and gather evidence to show that someone was doing this. For a one-off case? Less likely something would be done about it, but never say never.

Are you saying starting short is invalid on a CDR/Anytime as well?

 

[nedchester]

If someone were deliverately starting a journey short, day in, day out, then a TOC might take a particular interest in that, and gather evidence to show that someone was doing this. For a one-off case? Less likely something would be done about it, but never say never.

Which is what Virgin did in the Shotton example but they made the Shotton ticket more restrictive instead.

Incidentally apparently ticket staff at Chester were told not to issue Shotton to London SVRs which I would have thought is against the rules???