Ticketing sites offering TFW "Clwb 60" advances without checking entitlement

[AdamWW]

Retailers won't usually surface higher-priced Advance tiers (some do, but not many) that are deemed to be identical to others. They are pointless and a waste of money.

However, technically it's often possible to buy more expensive tickets even when there is a cheaper Advance.

That's what I thought.

So the mechanism that TfW have used to introduce this ticket has also effectively removed advances for those under 60.

Unless they're under 16.

 

[Lewisham2221]

That's what I thought.

So the mechanism that TfW have used to introduce this ticket has also effectively removed advances for those under 60.

Unless they're under 16.

Using the Trainline app and looking for the 12.10 Crewe to Cardiff on Wednesday 25th June, I get:

CLWB 60 £22.29
Advance £39.59
Anytime £84.49

 

[AdamWW]

Using the Trainline app and looking for the 12.10 Crewe to Cardiff on Wednesday 25th June, I get:

CLWB 60 £22.29
Advance £39.59
Anytime £84.49

What are the restrictions for the advance they're showing?

For that train the TfW app also shows Clwb 60 and an advance, but I think the advance is only showing up because it's has GWR + TfW restrictions and is seen as different to the TfW only Clwb 60.

(It's also showing slightly different fares to those above for all of them, including the anytime).

If I change to child fares to prevent the Clwb 60 from showing up (and I find it curious there's actually logic to do that) then I'm offered two advance singles - one for TfW and one for TfW+GWR (which isn't a lot of use I think).

 

[Lewisham2221]

What are the restrictions for the advance they're showing?

For that train the TfW app also shows Clwb 60 and an advance, but I think the advance is only showing up because it's has GWR + TfW restrictions and is seen as different to the TfW only Clwb 60.

(It's also showing slightly different fares to those above for all of them, including the anytime).

If I change to child fares to prevent the Clwb 60 from showing up (and I find it curious there's actually logic to do that) then I'm offered two advance singles - one for TfW and one for TfW+GWR (which isn't a lot of use I think).

Both the CLWB 60 and Advance I just say "Booked TfW services only" as far as I can see. I think the prices I've quoted above are including Trainlines booking fee

 

[AdamWW]

Both the CLWB 60 and Advance I just say "Booked TfW services only" as far as I can see. I think the prices I've quoted above are including Trainlines booking fee

OK I've just tried the Trainline web site for Swansea to Cardiff where I don't think there's a TfW+GWR option to muddy the waters.

It clearly states without having to follow any links that the CLWB 60 ticket is for those 60 or over only, and is also offering a regular advance single.

So full marks to them there.

Where it falls down is their decision to make it hard to get it to show anything but the cheapest fare - it took me a while to find the link hiding right at the bottom of the search results.

But they have still done a much better job of this than TfW have themselves.

 

[yorkie]

I fail to see how this is any different to someone selecting a railcard? It’s common sense that you don’t just select a discount you’re not entitled to…

It is very different; if people are not selecting a discount, then there can be no accusation to that effect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 17:37 ==

What would the outcome be if someone used these tickets whilst ineligible? New ticket/Excess/PF/prosecution? Are these unregulated fares actually backed up be enforceable restrictions?

The ticket should be honoured, but a report submitted to the pricing team, to correct the fare (if they were not already aware of this being looked into).

However, I could not guarantee that all staff who have responsibility for checking tickets would act correctly, as unfortunately there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure this.

Reminds me of how put out I was on the first weekend I was eligible for Northern’s over-55 northwest ranger and I wasn’t asked to prove my age once!

In my experience of travelling in groups, or travelling with people with certain Railcard discounts and within earshot of people travelling with others, the following outcomes are typical:

Disabled Railcard holders are almost never asked to show their Railcards; Senior Railcard holders are rarely asked to show theirs, which is in sharp contrast to younger people who are usually asked to show Railcards. Some staff members do ask for all Railcards to be shown, and some do not ask for any Railcards to be shown.

Your experience is therefore in line with my expectations!

 

[Benjwri]

It is very different; if people are not selecting a discount, then there can be no accusation to that effect.

Yeah as was pointed out to me, I was misunderstanding what was happening from the post, absolutely agree it is very very poor what happened.

 

[AdamWW]

It is very different; if people are not selecting a discount, then there can be no accusation to that effect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 17:37 ==


The ticket should be honoured, but a report submitted to the pricing team, to correct the fare (if they were not already aware of this being looked into).

However, I could not guarantee that all staff who have responsibility for checking tickets would act correctly, as unfortunately there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure this.

From a comment earlier in this thread, ticket retailers were informed of this in advance, Playing around with the Trainline suggests that (at least for journeys without splits) they have handled this in a reasonable manner, both warning that the passenger must be 60 or over and also showing an alternative advance fare for those who don't qualify.

Sadly, TfW have not managed to do the same with their own ticket purchasing facilities.

Unfortunately this does not surprise me.

Nor does it surprise me that their communication on the matter to ticket retailers was apparently at extremely short notice and unclear. This is, after all, how they often communicate changes to their own passengers.

 

[gallois]

This issue has affected me and I'm currently trying to persue a refund from TFW or The Trainline.

I was stopped by TFW at Cardiff Central for having an invalid ticket, an 'ADVANCE CLWB 60' ticket which shocked me (bought from The Trainline app).My previous day outbound ticket worked fine and was scanned by two guards. My next day return ticket was also scanned by two train guards fine. Only at Cardiff Central was my ticket flagged as invalid by TFW staff at a temporary outside barrier system because of the evening large scale event. The staff member who stopped me explained that I'm one of dozens of people he had stopped that day for having 'CLWB 60' tickets when they were under 60.

To my knowledge, I did not select CLWB 60. I had never heard of CLWB 60, and since using the Trainline's app since 2021, I have never been ineligible for any type of ticket on the ticket search results page. All other age related discounts are either by manually choosing a Railcard or by choosing a child ticket, including other CLUB age discounts!

I crossed checked TFW and the Trainline booking systems. TFW app showed an advance ticket as CLWB 60. The additional information button for that ticket type does NOT mention 'CLWB 60', or anything related to being over the age of 60 for this ticket to be valid for the customer. The Trainline booking app, for the same day and time did not even show CLWB 60 as an available ticket type.

National Rail's page showing discounts for advance tickets only mentions discounts for children or Railcards, both of which I would have had to manually select pre clicking search for tickets.

This 6 day only sale for which I was ineligible to take advantage of (because I'm not over 60 and couldn't pretend to be) has caught out dozens of people. It's a mess, a scam, and I'm not backing down until I'm refunded, either for my original ticket cost from The Trainline, or my on the spot ticket (£58.90!) from TFW. Personally, I think TFW should refund me, as they have created this monster.

I'm furious.

I have many screenshots as evidence of this mess which I'm using to fight my case. The offer expired yesterday so it is no longer searchable.

I really appreciate the discussions on this subject here. Thank you.

 

[Adam Williams]

To my knowledge, I did not select CLWB 60. I had never heard of CLWB 60, and since using the Trainline's app since 2021, I have never been ineligible for any type of ticket on the ticket search results page. All other age related discounts are either by manually choosing a Railcard or by choosing a child ticket, including other CLUB age discounts!

@gallois When exactly did you make your Trainline booking?

 

[gallois]

@gallois When exactly did you make your Trainline booking?

I bought my ticket on the 17th of June, which I now realise is the first day that this CLWB 60 was introduced. Just my luck eh?

 

[Adam Williams]

I bought my ticket on the 17th of June, which I now realise is the first day that this CLWB 60 was introduced. Just my luck eh?

I think in theory it would've been in the fares data at that point, and therefore in theory it would've been displayed as "Clwb 60" - but wholeheartedly agree it probably wouldn't have been obvious enough at point of purchase.

I don't think any inventory was made available prior to 17th of June, having looked.

 

[MrJeeves]

I think in theory it would've been in the fares data at that point, and therefore in theory it would've been displayed as "Clwb 60" - but wholeheartedly agree it probably wouldn't have been obvious enough at point of purchase.

I think it wouldn't have been clear at all if it was part of a SplitSave... Not the case for gallois though, I assume.