That's what I thought.
So the mechanism that TfW have used to introduce this ticket has also effectively removed advances for those under 60.
Unless they're under 16.
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Ticketing sites offering TFW "Clwb 60" advances without checking entitlement
- Thread starter SWML9102
- Start date
That's what I thought.
So the mechanism that TfW have used to introduce this ticket has also effectively removed advances for those under 60.
Unless they're under 16.
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Lewisham2221
Established Member
Using the Trainline app and looking for the 12.10 Crewe to Cardiff on Wednesday 25th June, I get:
CLWB 60 £22.29
Advance £39.59
Anytime £84.49
What are the restrictions for the advance they're showing?
For that train the TfW app also shows Clwb 60 and an advance, but I think the advance is only showing up because it's has GWR + TfW restrictions and is seen as different to the TfW only Clwb 60.
(It's also showing slightly different fares to those above for all of them, including the anytime).
If I change to child fares to prevent the Clwb 60 from showing up (and I find it curious there's actually logic to do that) then I'm offered two advance singles - one for TfW and one for TfW+GWR (which isn't a lot of use I think).
Lewisham2221
Established Member
Both the CLWB 60 and Advance I just say "Booked TfW services only" as far as I can see. I think the prices I've quoted above are including Trainlines booking fee
OK I've just tried the Trainline web site for Swansea to Cardiff where I don't think there's a TfW+GWR option to muddy the waters.
It clearly states without having to follow any links that the CLWB 60 ticket is for those 60 or over only, and is also offering a regular advance single.
So full marks to them there.
Where it falls down is their decision to make it hard to get it to show anything but the cheapest fare - it took me a while to find the link hiding right at the bottom of the search results.
But they have still done a much better job of this than TfW have themselves.
It is very different; if people are not selecting a discount, then there can be no accusation to that effect.
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The ticket should be honoured, but a report submitted to the pricing team, to correct the fare (if they were not already aware of this being looked into).
However, I could not guarantee that all staff who have responsibility for checking tickets would act correctly, as unfortunately there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure this.
In my experience of travelling in groups, or travelling with people with certain Railcard discounts and within earshot of people travelling with others, the following outcomes are typical:
Disabled Railcard holders are almost never asked to show their Railcards; Senior Railcard holders are rarely asked to show theirs, which is in sharp contrast to younger people who are usually asked to show Railcards. Some staff members do ask for all Railcards to be shown, and some do not ask for any Railcards to be shown.
Your experience is therefore in line with my expectations!
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Yeah as was pointed out to me, I was misunderstanding what was happening from the post, absolutely agree it is very very poor what happened.
From a comment earlier in this thread, ticket retailers were informed of this in advance, Playing around with the Trainline suggests that (at least for journeys without splits) they have handled this in a reasonable manner, both warning that the passenger must be 60 or over and also showing an alternative advance fare for those who don't qualify.
Sadly, TfW have not managed to do the same with their own ticket purchasing facilities.
Unfortunately this does not surprise me.
Nor does it surprise me that their communication on the matter to ticket retailers was apparently at extremely short notice and unclear. This is, after all, how they often communicate changes to their own passengers.
This issue has affected me and I'm currently trying to persue a refund from TFW or The Trainline.
I was stopped by TFW at Cardiff Central for having an invalid ticket, an 'ADVANCE CLWB 60' ticket which shocked me (bought from The Trainline app).My previous day outbound ticket worked fine and was scanned by two guards. My next day return ticket was also scanned by two train guards fine. Only at Cardiff Central was my ticket flagged as invalid by TFW staff at a temporary outside barrier system because of the evening large scale event. The staff member who stopped me explained that I'm one of dozens of people he had stopped that day for having 'CLWB 60' tickets when they were under 60.
To my knowledge, I did not select CLWB 60. I had never heard of CLWB 60, and since using the Trainline's app since 2021, I have never been ineligible for any type of ticket on the ticket search results page. All other age related discounts are either by manually choosing a Railcard or by choosing a child ticket, including other CLUB age discounts!
I crossed checked TFW and the Trainline booking systems. TFW app showed an advance ticket as CLWB 60. The additional information button for that ticket type does NOT mention 'CLWB 60', or anything related to being over the age of 60 for this ticket to be valid for the customer. The Trainline booking app, for the same day and time did not even show CLWB 60 as an available ticket type.
National Rail's page showing discounts for advance tickets only mentions discounts for children or Railcards, both of which I would have had to manually select pre clicking search for tickets.
This 6 day only sale for which I was ineligible to take advantage of (because I'm not over 60 and couldn't pretend to be) has caught out dozens of people. It's a mess, a scam, and I'm not backing down until I'm refunded, either for my original ticket cost from The Trainline, or my on the spot ticket (£58.90!) from TFW. Personally, I think TFW should refund me, as they have created this monster.
I'm furious.
I have many screenshots as evidence of this mess which I'm using to fight my case. The offer expired yesterday so it is no longer searchable.
I really appreciate the discussions on this subject here. Thank you.
I was stopped by TFW at Cardiff Central for having an invalid ticket, an 'ADVANCE CLWB 60' ticket which shocked me (bought from The Trainline app).My previous day outbound ticket worked fine and was scanned by two guards. My next day return ticket was also scanned by two train guards fine. Only at Cardiff Central was my ticket flagged as invalid by TFW staff at a temporary outside barrier system because of the evening large scale event. The staff member who stopped me explained that I'm one of dozens of people he had stopped that day for having 'CLWB 60' tickets when they were under 60.
To my knowledge, I did not select CLWB 60. I had never heard of CLWB 60, and since using the Trainline's app since 2021, I have never been ineligible for any type of ticket on the ticket search results page. All other age related discounts are either by manually choosing a Railcard or by choosing a child ticket, including other CLUB age discounts!
I crossed checked TFW and the Trainline booking systems. TFW app showed an advance ticket as CLWB 60. The additional information button for that ticket type does NOT mention 'CLWB 60', or anything related to being over the age of 60 for this ticket to be valid for the customer. The Trainline booking app, for the same day and time did not even show CLWB 60 as an available ticket type.
National Rail's page showing discounts for advance tickets only mentions discounts for children or Railcards, both of which I would have had to manually select pre clicking search for tickets.
This 6 day only sale for which I was ineligible to take advantage of (because I'm not over 60 and couldn't pretend to be) has caught out dozens of people. It's a mess, a scam, and I'm not backing down until I'm refunded, either for my original ticket cost from The Trainline, or my on the spot ticket (£58.90!) from TFW. Personally, I think TFW should refund me, as they have created this monster.
I'm furious.
I have many screenshots as evidence of this mess which I'm using to fight my case. The offer expired yesterday so it is no longer searchable.
I really appreciate the discussions on this subject here. Thank you.
Adam Williams
Established Member
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I bought my ticket on the 17th of June, which I now realise is the first day that this CLWB 60 was introduced. Just my luck eh?
Adam Williams
Established Member
I think in theory it would've been in the fares data at that point, and therefore in theory it would've been displayed as "Clwb 60" - but wholeheartedly agree it probably wouldn't have been obvious enough at point of purchase.
I don't think any inventory was made available prior to 17th of June, having looked.
I think it wouldn't have been clear at all if it was part of a SplitSave... Not the case for gallois though, I assume.
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 20,540
Was this a ticket or a Penalty Fare Notice?
Being in the younger group, I've had a very wide range of situations when presenting a ticket. Some guards don't ask for my ticket (due to recognising me from a work experience course) but most do. I don't often get my railcard checked but I have been asked more and more recently. I've never had proof of identity asked when using a travel pass (just a PDF on my phone) for work experience, but I have for interviews (the guard was clearly being trained).
One thing I've noticed is that people with Disabled Persons Railcards are always willing to show it immediately, even while being sold a ticket. Being the one selling a ticket, I always told them it's not necessary while buying but to just ensure they have it available while travelling. I think a certain level of trust automatically applies with these railcards.
What does Clwb actually mean? Is it an acronym or a Welsh word?
It was the cost of a ticket from Shrewsbury to Cardiff, the journey I had just taken, and used my ticket on without issue with onboard conductors, who failed to flag that it was invalid for me
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If it was as clear and obvious as it should be, then I wouldn't have selected it manually, if I even did so.
With the Trainline app, the cheapest ticket type is automatically selected. I can continue to the checkout without manually selecting Splitsave, Advance Single, or Anytime Day Single. I don't know for sure, but perhaps this CLWB 60 was simply bestowed upon me automatically as the cheapest ticket type.
I'm awaiting a call from a senior member of staff at The Trainline, and an official reply within 10 days to my long complaint through WhatsApp with TFW within 10 days.
I hope others in my situation are also complaining and raising the issue. This could have all been avoided if CLWB 60, was listed in the Railcard section, or as a discount code.
A Trainline supervisor told me ( I have full WhatsApp transcripts) :
"and coupon's are added manually.You have added the code manually, on 17th June while making the booking...I understand but it cannot be applied automatically"
"I completely understand your situation...The tickets are scanned and accepted at the destination". Then why was I forced to make an additional payment to TFW? My ticket was not accepted!
They're calling it a coupon themselves, which of course I did not apply, since I had never heard of it.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
CLWB is simply Welsh for CLUB. I can speak Welsh, but you not knowing exactly what it means is exactly why people could also have been caught out. Could be 60 minutes or 60 miles.
If it Indeed existed as a ticket type, and said CLWB OVER 60's, then perhaps less people or even nobody would have been caught out. Instead, dozens have, and that's only what I've heard from one guard at one station. In reality, hundreds could be affected.
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TfW's retail team are definitely aware that there have been issues like this (and that the passenger is not at fault) so hopefully once the customer services team get around to it a refund of the new ticket will be processed quickly. A briefing to frontline staff about the issue went out on the 18th.
Are you able to share what the advice to staff was? Allow people to travel with the ticket who are under 60?
I think perhaps if the ticket was bought through TFW, maybe then they were permitting it? I'd certainly like to know about this briefing!
Mine was "third party" from The Trainline, so TFW charged me on the spot and told me to chase The Trainline for a refund, and The Trainline are currently refusing.
I haven't got it to hand, but that was the gist of it.
TfW need to refund you; contact them and insist that they do so.
This was TfW's error and they should not be charging customers on the spot. I'd have said I had no money.
I have recieved a refund of the on the spot amount from...The Trainline.
"
Thank you for your patience while I've reviewed this.
I'd like to apologise for any frustration or confusion this situation has caused.
The Advance CLWB 60 ticket you purchased between Cardiff and Bangor, going out on the 22nd and coming back on the 23rd June, was a promotional offer turned on by Transport for Wales (TfW) to encourage more travel. Unfortunately, there was no age verification attached to them, which we could use to ensure customers were over the age of 60 when using these tickets. This was raised with TfW, so they could organise for their staff to be more lenient and understanding of customers who had received one of these in error. Unfortunately, it seems the staff at Shrewsbury had not received this update yet.
As this was no fault of your own, I've refunded your original inbound section with us and reimbursed you for the difference in price. This means you'll be credited two separate amounts, one of £29.60 and a second of £29.30 to the card linked with your GooglePay, within the next 5 working days"
This is the exact amount that TFW charged me upon arrival into Cardiff, so I guess they've looked at the ticket I sent as proof and refund me what I had to Pay TFW?
Still waiting for my complaint response from TFW
Thx all!
Dave
Adam Williams
Established Member
One is left to wonder how Trainline would envisage "age verification" being attached to a fare in the data.
I think it was just added to explain the situation and how the problem appeared, rather than suggesting that it was possible.
Set up the ticket to only be valid with a senior railcard
Envoy
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 2,840
Perhaps TFW set up the promotion to attract new customers who did not have the £35 Senior Railcard?Set up the ticket to only be valid with a senior railcard
It would have been clearer if they had called it ‘Over 60’s Special Deal’ as that would have made it clear that this was for over 60’s only. The use of the Welsh word ‘Clwb’ means nothing to most people and is discriminatory against the English speaking majority.
It’s poor regardless of the name, the railways have promoted the idea that you can just buy the cheapest ticket that comes up as long as you fill in details correctly. They also don’t require sites to clearly display the name of the ticket.
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 20,540
On the contrary, I think the majority are bright enough to figure out that the Welsh word 'clwb' is equivalent to the remarkably similar English word 'club'. And a name cannot be discriminatory.
The English victimhood narrative gets tiring...
Given that it's not even a "club" (no sign up, no membership), it's just a promotion it's pretty meaningless in Welsh.
alistairlees
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Dec 2016
- Messages
- 4,074
The problem with this product was not really the name. The problem was that, on booking engines, it replaced the lowest-priced adult Advance fare, meaning that there was no Advance fare for adults below 60.
Before Clwb 60 was made available there were, on TfW flows, the usual tiers of Advance fares. Let's say they were from £10 in increments of £5 to £30 on a particular flow. Most booking engines (I think Worldline is an exception?) show only the lowest price available Advance fare. In this case that might be the £10 one, with the £15, £20, £25 and £30 ones not being shown. This makes complete sense; there is no need to show higher-priced identical fares that offer no advantage to customers, but which would most likely confuse them.
To introduce the Clwb 60, TfW made available a dormant promotional tier of Advance tickets - a toer that is not normally available, except at times of promotion. Let's say that's £5. Naturally, as that's the cheapest Advance fare for this particular fare route (such as 00217 - TfW CDF to MAN), then that's the only one that booking engines will show. That is how promotions normally work. So the result was a £5 that was intended only for over 60s; and no Advance fares for under 60s!
Why don't the booking engines just sort this out themselves? Well, for one thing, why should the booking engines pay for the costs of the TOCs constantly creating things that don't fit within the industry fares data structure and rules? If the TOCs want to change things, then they should pay for that. Second, we were only informed of this new product about 10 days before it was due to go live. Other priorities have to be shuffled around in order to accommodate these random things out of the blue. Sometimes that is not always possible, though we do actually try. The ideal solution would not have been simple - it would have involved us hacking around with data, UI and emails in just a few days.
The lesson is: TOCs needs to understand the implications of proposed out-of-the-ordinary changes to products and to discuss these with retailers first, before agreeing on a plan to implement them well. Retailers are absolutely striving for the best customer experience - TOCs should be doing so too.
Before Clwb 60 was made available there were, on TfW flows, the usual tiers of Advance fares. Let's say they were from £10 in increments of £5 to £30 on a particular flow. Most booking engines (I think Worldline is an exception?) show only the lowest price available Advance fare. In this case that might be the £10 one, with the £15, £20, £25 and £30 ones not being shown. This makes complete sense; there is no need to show higher-priced identical fares that offer no advantage to customers, but which would most likely confuse them.
To introduce the Clwb 60, TfW made available a dormant promotional tier of Advance tickets - a toer that is not normally available, except at times of promotion. Let's say that's £5. Naturally, as that's the cheapest Advance fare for this particular fare route (such as 00217 - TfW CDF to MAN), then that's the only one that booking engines will show. That is how promotions normally work. So the result was a £5 that was intended only for over 60s; and no Advance fares for under 60s!
Why don't the booking engines just sort this out themselves? Well, for one thing, why should the booking engines pay for the costs of the TOCs constantly creating things that don't fit within the industry fares data structure and rules? If the TOCs want to change things, then they should pay for that. Second, we were only informed of this new product about 10 days before it was due to go live. Other priorities have to be shuffled around in order to accommodate these random things out of the blue. Sometimes that is not always possible, though we do actually try. The ideal solution would not have been simple - it would have involved us hacking around with data, UI and emails in just a few days.
The lesson is: TOCs needs to understand the implications of proposed out-of-the-ordinary changes to products and to discuss these with retailers first, before agreeing on a plan to implement them well. Retailers are absolutely striving for the best customer experience - TOCs should be doing so too.