TIL claim for unpaid fare

[Western Sunset]

Just to reiterate the train times. The caveat being that "The info is provided for strictly non-commercial, non-safety critical purposes. No responsibility is accepted for any inaccuracies or out of date info".

This is derived from TRUST data - I don't know what other timings TiL (or whoever) would use, if indeed they did.

Anyway, the relevant trains are:

1048 Gt Malvern - Brighton (actually terminate at Worthing due to late running further on its journey)
Ashchurch arr 1124.5 (WTT) 1125 (GBTT) 1129 (Actual) = 5 late
dep 1125.5 (WTT) 1125 (GBTT) 1132 (Actual) = 7 late

Cheltenham arr 1133 (WTT) 1133 (GBTT) 1140 (Actual) = 7 late

1100 Bristol - Manchester (train planned to catch)
Cheltenham arr 1138 (WTT) 1138 (GBTT) 1139 (Actual) = 1 late
dep 1140 (WTT) 1140 (WTT) 1140 (Actual) = On time

0925 Plymouth - Aberdeen
Cheltenham arr 1208.5 (WTT) 1209 (GBTT) 1208 (Actual) = On time
dep 1211 (WTT) 1211 (GBTT) 1211 (Actual) = On time


Key - WTT = Working timetable GBTT = Public quoted times in published timetables

PS The 1208 time of issue on the ticket given to the OP, ties in with the time the Ply - Aber train was in Cheltenham station.

 

[philthetube]

Thanks Nelson - all noted, and yes good idea to mull over it over weekend and you have all the aspects of this now. In any letter for XC that is part of this I think you can draw heavily on your earlier draft to TIL esp in terms of how the matter was handled on board etc.

For what it is worth I suspect the National Conditions of Travel 'trump' the Railcard T&Cs and the debate about 'earliest opportunity to buy' is one that has been debated on this forum in other cases before including those that HAVE gone to court IIRC and hinged on it, which is why various posters have flagged it up with differing degrees / views. Obv the Railcard T&C do not conflict with that but the prosecutors will no doubt choose the conditions that most support their position and I think that will be the National Conditions of Travel.

Obv this runs the risk of starting off another tangential debate but it is clear that you have followed this in detail and appreciate the efforts people are taking to offer advice.

Good luck to you.

You have been sold the railcard by the same people who sell tickets,(effectively). If the railcard is trumped, and I doubt it then the railcard issuers would be liable for any damages and expenses incurred

I don't think that your interpretation is what was intended but it is there in black and white.

 

[madjack]

I can certainly check my phone records for calls made between 11.30 and 12.00 noon on that day.

One would probably not *start* a journey without a ticket where there was an opportunity to buy one (at a London terminus, say) on the grounds of having to rearrange a meeting because of late-running trains. I'm not sure the fact of Cheltenham being a connecting station alters the logic here.

 

[Llanigraham]

Just to reiterate the train times. The caveat being that "The info is provided for strictly non-commercial, non-safety critical purposes. No responsibility is accepted for any inaccuracies or out of date info".

This is derived from TRUST data - I don't know what other timings TiL (or whoever) would use, if indeed they did.

Anyway, the relevant trains are:

1048 Gt Malvern - Brighton (actually terminate at Worthing due to late running further on its journey)
Ashchurch arr 1124.5 (WTT) 1125 (GBTT) 1129 (Actual) = 5 late
dep 1125.5 (WTT) 1125 (GBTT) 1132 (Actual) = 7 late

Cheltenham arr 1133 (WTT) 1133 (GBTT) 1140 (Actual) = 7 late

1100 Bristol - Manchester (train planned to catch)
Cheltenham arr 1138 (WTT) 1138 (GBTT) 1139 (Actual) = 1 late
dep 1140 (WTT) 1140 (WTT) 1140 (Actual) = On time

0925 Plymouth - Aberdeen
Cheltenham arr 1208.5 (WTT) 1209 (GBTT) 1208 (Actual) = On time
dep 1211 (WTT) 1211 (GBTT) 1211 (Actual) = On time


Key - WTT = Working timetable GBTT = Public quoted times in published timetables

PS The 1208 time of issue on the ticket given to the OP, ties in with the time the Ply - Aber train was in Cheltenham station.

TRUST recordings will be the timings used by the TOC.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I have read this thread with interest, noting all the opinions & interpretations by others and having assessed so far as possible, the 'evidence' presented by one side of the dispute.

As someone who prosecuted these matters on behalf of the TOCs for more than 20 years I believe that this matter can be broken down as follows:

I very much agree that if TIL have put an offer to resolve the case administratively on the table and if that offer is still available to him, I believe that the OP is best advised to pay-up and avoid further action.

If the OP wishes to dispute the matter and wishes allow the case to be heard by a Magistrates Court, it is my opinion that he is very likely to be convicted of an offence.

There is no dispute that the OP boarded a train at Ashchurch where no facilities to buy were available and was entitled to claim a Railcard Discount if paying at the first opportunity when on train. The train was 28 minutes late and it may be that because of this, no conductor / guard passed through that first train to sell him a ticket.

Because the train was late, the OP missed his intended connection at Cheltenham leaving the OP around half an hour to purchase a ticket at the ticket office there for his whole journey from Ashchurch to Birmingham. The OP did not do so.

The OP says that when asked to show a ticket on the train from Cheltenham he offered to pay a discounted fare from Ashchurch to Birmingham, but was refused. A brief dispute appears to have taken place and the OP was asked to pay the full undiscounted fare, but he refused to do so.

The Conductor Guard issued a zero fare ticket and has submitted a written Travel Irregularity Report (TIR) to the XC train operating company. The zero fare ticket issued at the time indicates that only a return journey between Cheltenham & Birmingham was requested. XC have assessed their staff members report and have passed the case to their prosecuting agents, Transport Investigations Limited.

The OP disputes the allegation that a 'short ticket' was requested and the rail staff who reported the matter will have been asked for a signed statement confirming what they believe happened on train.

The matter may proceed to issue of a Summons and to a Magistrates Court hearing, the OP may submit a 'Not Guilty' plea with intent to challenge the allegation. If so, the case will be adjourned to a trial at a later date.

Important points to remember here are not the Railcard Conditions, but it is the NRCoT, Railway Byelaws and Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act [1889] are the legislations that the Court will be concerned with. When I was handling these matters I would have considered seeking statements from the guard on the first train and from the ticket office staff at Cheltenham station. The rail staff concerned in reporting the matter will certainly be called to give live evidence at any trial and would be available for cross examination by the defence. The OP's defence would also be questioned by the prosecution.

Factors to be examined will be:

Did the OP have ample time to buy a ticket at the first opportunity? The answer appears to be a clear 'Yes', he had 28 minutes at Cheltenham station.

Was the purchase facility easily accessible at that station? Yes, the ticket office is clearly signed and accessed from the same platform that his train arrived at.

Did the OP offer a short fare, i.e; only from Cheltenham? The OP says no, but the evidence submitted by the TOC would seem to dispute this, why else would the on-train staff issue a return between Cheltenham & Birmingham.

The Prosecution and Defence advocates would have the opportunity to pursue robust examination of this point before the Magistrates and to question the OP and the rail staff member accordingly.

there might be other points to consider, but the basic issues are contained there and it's worth remembering the oft quoted maxim, that 'a man will be judged on his words and actions'. I was often reminded that Magistrates are not to be considered to be mind-readers, it is what was said and done that matters.

If I were the OP, I would pay-up and chalk this one down to experience. I honestly do not believe there would be any success in complaining to the TOC, Transport Focus or The Rail Ombudsman, but that is entirely a matter for the OP

 

[Western Sunset]

There is no dispute that the OP boarded a train at Ashchurch where no facilities to buy were available and was entitled to claim a Railcard Discount if paying at the first opportunity when on train. The train was 28 minutes late and it may be that because of this, no conductor / guard passed through that first train to sell him a ticket.

How do you calculate that the first train was 28 min late please?

 

[island]

I think that is a misinterpretation of a statement upthread. The train was (I think) nine minutes late, thereby turning a seven minute connection into a 28 minute one (onto the next train).

 

[Llanigraham]

I think that is a misinterpretation of a statement upthread. The train was (I think) nine minutes late, thereby turning a seven minute connection into a 28 minute one (onto the next train).

Agreed, but all the points made by Fare-Cop still apply; the OP had 28 minutes to buy his ticket at Cheltenham and ignored that opportunity.

 

[Fare-Cop]

How do you calculate that the first train was 28 min late please?

Yes, my apology, island is correct, I should have said that the 9 minute delay on the first train resulted in a 28 minute wait at Cheltenham, more than ample time to purchase the requisite ticket.

Thank you for correcting my error island, I shall not edit my original post further so as to leave the error and your correction clear to all.

 

[Hadders]

@Fare-Cop makes some valid points. I'd be interested to know exactly what the signage as Ashchurch station says. Does it state that 'tickets must be purchased onboard' or does it say that 'tickets must be purchased at the first available opportunity (which could be onboard, at a station where you change trains or at your destination)'.

 

[island]

I'd be interested to know exactly what the signage as Ashchurch station says. Does it state that 'tickets must be purchased onboard' or does it say that 'tickets must be purchased at the first available opportunity (which could be onboard, at a station where you change trains or at your destination)'.

I do not think anything material turns on this point.

 

[Hadders]

I do not think anything material turns on this point.

On the contrary, if the signage says to purchase onboard then the OP could argue that s/he followed that advice (notwithstanding the potential issue of asking for a ticket from Cheltenham rather than Ashchurch). If the signage made it clear that a ticket should be purchased at a station en-route if changing trains then the OP did not comply with this.

 

[island]

Unlike byelaw offences, the offence of travelling on a train without having previously paid a fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof does not have as a defence that such signage was displayed at the station where the journey began.

(A prosecution for a byelaw offence would already be doomed to fail for lack of ticketing facilities at the origin.)

 

[Hadders]

I would argue that I was not avoiding paying my fare if there were no facilities to buy one at my starting station and I was following the signage displayed at the station about buying tickets.

 

[MotCO]

There is one thing bugging me. I can see the argument that the guard who tried to sell the ticket is refusing to offer the railcard discount because the OP had time to buy at Cheltenham, but how did the guard know that the OP had 28 minutes (or sufficient time) at Cheltenham? I do not know how the guard would know, so I am lead to believe that he/she would never accept that a ticket could be issued on board with a railcard discount. Does this strenghen the OP's hand?

Also, if the OP does pay the £90, does this include the cost of the ticket? If so, can he claim delay repay? If he had been able to buy the ticket on the frst train, he would be able to claim repay, so if the purchase of the ticket is delayed, does delay repay still apply?

 

[SteveM70]

There is one thing bugging me. I can see the argument that the guard who tried to sell the ticket is refusing to offer the railcard discount because the OP had time to buy at Cheltenham, but how did the guard know that the OP had 28 minutes (or sufficient time) at Cheltenham? I do not know how the guard would know, so I am lead to believe that he/she would never accept that a ticket could be issued on board with a railcard discount. Does this strenghen the OP's hand?

Also, if the OP does pay the £90, does this include the cost of the ticket? If so, can he claim delay repay? If he had been able to buy the ticket on the frst train, he would be able to claim repay, so if the purchase of the ticket is delayed, does delay repay still apply?

My hunch is that the guard had unwittingly done the right thing

 

[Fare-Cop]

There is one thing bugging me. I can see the argument that the guard who tried to sell the ticket is refusing to offer the railcard discount because the OP had time to buy at Cheltenham, but how did the guard know that the OP had 28 minutes (or sufficient time) at Cheltenham? I do not know how the guard would know, so I am lead to believe that he/she would never accept that a ticket could be issued on board with a railcard discount. Does this strenghen the OP's hand?

No, it does not strengthen the OPs hand

I have often said that we only ever see one side of a dispute on these threads and I am not suggesting that the OP has been untruthful in any way, but what must be borne in mind is the fact that there will have been a conversation between the OP and the member of staff who reported the matter.

That staff member will have asked one or two questions to ascertain why the OP did not have any valid ticket, the questions asked and the OPs answers will be recorded in the staff member's witness statement, on which the TOC and the prosecutor to whom they have referred the matter will have assessed and based their decision.

 

[WesternLancer]

There is one thing bugging me. I can see the argument that the guard who tried to sell the ticket is refusing to offer the railcard discount because the OP had time to buy at Cheltenham, but how did the guard know that the OP had 28 minutes (or sufficient time) at Cheltenham? I do not know how the guard would know, so I am lead to believe that he/she would never accept that a ticket could be issued on board with a railcard discount. Does this strenghen the OP's hand?

Also, if the OP does pay the £90, does this include the cost of the ticket? If so, can he claim delay repay? If he had been able to buy the ticket on the frst train, he would be able to claim repay, so if the purchase of the ticket is delayed, does delay repay still apply?

I do think this is a notable point - I suspect the guard was under the impression or assumed the OP got on at Cheltenham without a ticket - the gaurd would otherwise have happily stated Ashchurch - I think both parties made errors in the heart of the moment.

The customer focused approach would be to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and hope they continue to patronize your business. Under the present circs you might expect the TOCs to need that business in future. But I doubt ti works like that...

Shame really - when the railways are facing their biggest threat since, well, goodness knows...

 

[WesternLancer]

I have read this thread with interest, noting all the opinions & interpretations by others and having assessed so far as possible, the 'evidence' presented by one side of the dispute.

As someone who prosecuted these matters on behalf of the TOCs for more than 20 years I believe that this matter can be broken down as follows:

I very much agree that if TIL have put an offer to resolve the case administratively on the table and if that offer is still available to him, I believe that the OP is best advised to pay-up and avoid further action.

If the OP wishes to dispute the matter and wishes allow the case to be heard by a Magistrates Court, it is my opinion that he is very likely to be convicted of an offence.

There is no dispute that the OP boarded a train at Ashchurch where no facilities to buy were available and was entitled to claim a Railcard Discount if paying at the first opportunity when on train. The train was 28 minutes late and it may be that because of this, no conductor / guard passed through that first train to sell him a ticket.

Because the train was late, the OP missed his intended connection at Cheltenham leaving the OP around half an hour to purchase a ticket at the ticket office there for his whole journey from Ashchurch to Birmingham. The OP did not do so.

The OP says that when asked to show a ticket on the train from Cheltenham he offered to pay a discounted fare from Ashchurch to Birmingham, but was refused. A brief dispute appears to have taken place and the OP was asked to pay the full undiscounted fare, but he refused to do so.

The Conductor Guard issued a zero fare ticket and has submitted a written Travel Irregularity Report (TIR) to the XC train operating company. The zero fare ticket issued at the time indicates that only a return journey between Cheltenham & Birmingham was requested. XC have assessed their staff members report and have passed the case to their prosecuting agents, Transport Investigations Limited.

The OP disputes the allegation that a 'short ticket' was requested and the rail staff who reported the matter will have been asked for a signed statement confirming what they believe happened on train.

The matter may proceed to issue of a Summons and to a Magistrates Court hearing, the OP may submit a 'Not Guilty' plea with intent to challenge the allegation. If so, the case will be adjourned to a trial at a later date.

Important points to remember here are not the Railcard Conditions, but it is the NRCoT, Railway Byelaws and Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act [1889] are the legislations that the Court will be concerned with. When I was handling these matters I would have considered seeking statements from the guard on the first train and from the ticket office staff at Cheltenham station. The rail staff concerned in reporting the matter will certainly be called to give live evidence at any trial and would be available for cross examination by the defence. The OP's defence would also be questioned by the prosecution.

Factors to be examined will be:

Did the OP have ample time to buy a ticket at the first opportunity? The answer appears to be a clear 'Yes', he had 28 minutes at Cheltenham station.

Was the purchase facility easily accessible at that station? Yes, the ticket office is clearly signed and accessed from the same platform that his train arrived at.

Did the OP offer a short fare, i.e; only from Cheltenham? The OP says no, but the evidence submitted by the TOC would seem to dispute this, why else would the on-train staff issue a return between Cheltenham & Birmingham.

The Prosecution and Defence advocates would have the opportunity to pursue robust examination of this point before the Magistrates and to question the OP and the rail staff member accordingly.

there might be other points to consider, but the basic issues are contained there and it's worth remembering the oft quoted maxim, that 'a man will be judged on his words and actions'. I was often reminded that Magistrates are not to be considered to be mind-readers, it is what was said and done that matters.

If I were the OP, I would pay-up and chalk this one down to experience. I honestly do not believe there would be any success in complaining to the TOC, Transport Focus or The Rail Ombudsman, but that is entirely a matter for the OP

I hope the OP returns to read this helpful post.

 

[jumble]

No, it does not strengthen the OPs hand

I have often said that we only ever see one side of a dispute on these threads and I am not suggesting that the OP has been untruthful in any way, but what must be borne in mind is the fact that there will have been a conversation between the OP and the member of staff who reported the matter.

That staff member will have asked one or two questions to ascertain why the OP did not have any valid ticket, the questions asked and the OPs answers will be recorded in the staff member's witness statement, on which the TOC and the prosecutor to whom they have referred the matter will have assessed and based their decision.

I would add that the OP has, helpfully to TIL, shown their hand by posting all the details including the 28 minute between trains
If I were in the OPs shoes I would follow FareCops advice on the basis that he/she is very experienced in this process, pay the £90.00 and get on with my life
I would not risk a magistrate coming to the conclusion that by not buying at Cheltenham I was hoping to avoid paying at all,

 

[virgintrain1]

If the zero fare was issued at 12:08 it would have not been the Aberdeen it must have been onboard the XC 170. The 1045 Cardiff - Nottingham.
Also note that it's regularly a double set so often has a RPI in the front.

 

[Western Sunset]

If the zero fare was issued at 12:08 it would have not been the Aberdeen it must have been onboard the XC 170. The 1045 Cardiff - Nottingham.
Also note that it's regularly a double set so often has a RPI in the front.

Very well spotted!
So that would've given the OP a little less time to buy his ticket, but still he'd have had 21mins to purchase it at Cheltenham. The times for the 1045 Cardiff - Nottm on the day in question were arr Chelt 1201/dep 1203 (On time). So doesn't really alter things as far as I can see in that regard.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I did wonder that given the timestamp, but concluded that the time on the machine may have been slightly behind, especially given comments that the meeting had to be delayed by half an hour, which would be consistent with catching the 1210 (which arrived at 1208 I believe?)

I guess it worries me slightly that the original poster said earlier "I missed the regular 11.40 connection and had to wait for the next one 12.10 I think. " Being so vague as to not know what train was caught, when it resulted in a very stressful situation which would stick in the memory at the time, and for which the length of time at Cheltenham was a material factor in the argument, would not help his case at all. I'm assuming that as the OP was chairing a meeting, then, although entitled to a Senior Railcard, is unlikely to be other than of sharp mind, and would be expected to have all the relevant facts clear. The fact that he doesn't, if exposed in court, will further weaken his case.

I'd pay up and take it on the chin. There's a strong chance the court will find in XC's favour, and given there was adequate time to purchase a ticket at Cheltenham in accordance with the rules, not unreasonably so.

 

[Western Sunset]

Like Brissle Girl, I thought the time on the machine might've been a tad slow, but now it makes sense. Also the OP mentioned a train around 1210, so that's the one I thought he'd caught. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

Don't think it materially changes things though.

 

[NelsonPK]

Dear everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Your help and advice was much appreciated and I am happy to announce that TIL have today written to me accepting my payment of £18.20 (the discounted fair) and agreeing to take no further action. Well I think that's what they mean when they say "Please note that no further reminders will be issued"

I attach a copy of the letter I submitted which was mainly drafted with the not insubstantial assistance from Western Lancer.

Much of the comments in the thread above revolves around whether I had time to purchase a ticket at Cheltenham whereas the argument on the train was about not accepting a senior rail card when buying a ticket on the train. Clearly TIL agree with my assertion that I was entitled to use the rail card. However I admit that we possibly both lost sight of the fact in the heat of the argument that I had actually commenced my journey at Ashchurch not Cheltenham. After all TMs come down the train and ask for "tickets from Cheltenham please" to which I put my hand up as I had boarded her train at Cheltenham even though I had commenced my journey at Ashchurch.

In response to Fare-cops point about no knowing the exact time of the later link from Cheltenham please remember that I along with millions of others was just trying to make my journey comfortably and without hassle something which late trains do not help. Being aware of precise times for arrivals and departures is not top priority - you just jump on the next available train.

Anyway I am glad I stuck to my guns and thanks for all your advice.

Nelson

 

[WesternLancer]

Dear everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Your help and advice was much appreciated and I am happy to announce that TIL have today written to me accepting my payment of £18.20 (the discounted fair) and agreeing to take no further action. Well I think that's what they mean when they say "Please note that no further reminders will be issued"

I attach a copy of the letter I submitted which was mainly drafted with the not insubstantial assistance from Western Lancer.

Much of the comments in the thread above revolves around whether I had time to purchase a ticket at Cheltenham whereas the argument on the train was about not accepting a senior rail card when buying a ticket on the train. Clearly TIL agree with my assertion that I was entitled to use the rail card. However I admit that we possibly both lost sight of the fact in the heat of the argument that I had actually commenced my journey at Ashchurch not Cheltenham. After all TMs come down the train and ask for "tickets from Cheltenham please" to which I put my hand up as I had boarded her train at Cheltenham even though I had commenced my journey at Ashchurch.

In response to Fare-cops point about no knowing the exact time of the later link from Cheltenham please remember that I along with millions of others was just trying to make my journey comfortably and without hassle something which late trains do not help. Being aware of precise times for arrivals and departures is not top priority - you just jump on the next available train.

Anyway I am glad I stuck to my guns and thanks for all your advice.

Nelson

Thanks Nelson - good to read - this sounds like a good result and I am pleased my help was of assistance. I think they have taken the sort of reasonable approach that it would be good to see more examples of in general!
I hope all is well with the organisation that I recall you were going to Chair a meeting of in these tricky times.
Best wishes
WL

 

[ainsworth74]

Excellent news and thank you for letting us know

 

[Brissle Girl]

Well done, and an exceptionally clear and factual letter without any of the emotive language that can often not help one’s case. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[island]

Good to hear that you obtained a positive conclusion.

If it happens in the future that you cannot obtain a ticket on the first train, make certain to buy at Cheltenham Spa If you have adequate time to do so.