Time for the Atherton line to connect to Piccadilly?

[Topological]

With Metrolink, I believe that a route along Chapel Street has been identified. TfGM documents are often vague on exactly what has been proposed.

Certainly, the Salford University masterplan has the trams there. Castlefield is also full for trams, so fitting any Atherton line trams along the existing corridor would not work.

Space only emerges once you get to the two city centre crossings. There the vision seemed to be to bring the tram-trains along Whitworth Street from Piccadilly and then up Princes Street or Oxford Street rather than the tram-trains going via Piccadilly Gardens.

I am not sure how the proposals exactly dig the tram-trains out of the valley at the old Pendleton station site, but that is what happens in the Salford University masterplan. Links from Salford Crescent to the quays also feature on an aspirational list there too.

 

[HSTEd]

There's Parkside. Do you need a third one?

And beyond that, a tram line from Hindley or Wigan to Manchester can still perform an emergency "get me home" function.

Worst case, if Merseyrail, Metrolink and the Southports all meet at Wigan Wallgate, it provides plenty of options to get large people where they need to go in disruption - even if its not as fast as it could be.

A metrolink line that puts on some doubles can move quite a lot of people, as can a 4tph Merseyrail service, if it comes down to it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Worst case, if Merseyrail, Metrolink and the Southports all meet at Wigan Wallgate, it provides plenty of options to get large people where they need to go in disruption - even if its not as fast as it could

Don't some of the rail services from Manchester access Wigan North Western railway station?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Don't some of the rail services from Manchester access Wigan North Western railway station?

On Sundays the via Bolton service does, and very few services do throughout the day

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The Cl 399 Sheffield - Rotherham Vossloh trams are 25kV AC ready are they not?

Equipment is fitted but never used. Indeed it's not clear whether it has even been tested outside of the Vossloh factory. As such it is completely unproven. But the 399s are a complete bodge in any case as they rely on bespoke wheelsets to cope with running on both the street tracks and those of Network Rail. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the tram-train concept. How is this issue being dealt with in Cardiff?

At present there are two Atherton services (Headbolt and a Wallgate terminator) and two Bolton services (2 Southports). The logical outcome of that would be the two Atherton services go to Metrolink (increased to 5), Merseyrail extends from Headbolt to Wallgate (giving a choice of onward connection onto the Southports or Metrolink as preferred), and the two Southports continue as they do now. This wouldn't require any extra paths via Bolton or indeed anywhere else.

Not sure why you continue with the nonsense of Merseyrail running to Wigan. The only people supporting this idea are crayonistas seeking to act as empire builders on Merseyrail's behalf. Absolutely no support for it locally. Please stop. As for Southports running via Bolton this would need bi-modes: the 769s fill the role currently but it's highly likely they will be withdrawn from service before modern bi-modes can be delivered. It would be politically disastrous to have diesels running under the wires through Westhoughton, hence the post electrification service pattern will be electrics from North Western via Bolton and diesels from Wallgate via Atherton whether from Headbolt Lane or Southport. The 769s are likely to be used on different routes to those currently operated. Any tramification of the Atherton line will necessarily require that heavy-rail bi-modes are available to maintain cross Wigan services to/from Manchester.

With Metrolink, I believe that a route along Chapel Street has been identified. TfGM documents are often vague on exactly what has been proposed.

Certainly, the Salford University masterplan has the trams there. Castlefield is also full for trams, so fitting any Atherton line trams along the existing corridor would not work.

Space only emerges once you get to the two city centre crossings. There the vision seemed to be to bring the tram-trains along Whitworth Street from Piccadilly and then up Princes Street or Oxford Street rather than the tram-trains going via Piccadilly Gardens.

I am not sure how the proposals exactly dig the tram-trains out of the valley at the old Pendleton station site, but that is what happens in the Salford University masterplan. Links from Salford Crescent to the quays also feature on an aspirational list there too.

A websearch for said masterplan did not reveal any meaningful information about public transport services for the university. In fact the main focus seems to be to make any continued use of private cars more sustainable. Do you have a useful link?

 

[Topological]

Equipment is fitted but never used. Indeed it's not clear whether it has even been tested outside of the Vossloh factory. As such it is completely unproven. But the 399s are a complete bodge in any case as they rely on bespoke wheelsets to cope with running on both the street tracks and those of Network Rail. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the tram-train concept. How is this issue being dealt with in Cardiff?


Not sure why you continue with the nonsense of Merseyrail running to Wigan. The only people supporting this idea are crayonistas seeking to act as empire builders on Merseyrail's behalf. Absolutely no support for it locally. Please stop. As for Southports running via Bolton this would need bi-modes: the 769s fill the role currently but it's highly likely they will be withdrawn from service before modern bi-modes can be delivered. It would be politically disastrous to have diesels running under the wires through Westhoughton, hence the post electrification service pattern will be electrics from North Western via Bolton and diesels from Wallgate via Atherton whether from Headbolt Lane or Southport. The 769s are likely to be used on different routes to those currently operated. Any tramification of the Atherton line will necessarily require that heavy-rail bi-modes are available to maintain cross Wigan services to/from Manchester.


A websearch for said masterplan did not reveal any meaningful information about public transport services for the university. In fact the main focus seems to be to make any continued use of private cars more sustainable. Do you have a useful link?

Link here with regard to Salford Quays connection: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/ecf-refreshes-salford-crescent-masterplan/

Developer English Cities Fund wants to transform the 250-acre site into a “globally recognised destination”, through a revised framework that could see a Metrolink extension connecting the area with Salford Quays.

After being appointed by Salford City Council and the University of Salford to deliver the £800m project earlier this year, ECF – made up of Muse Developments, Legal & General and Homes England – has drafted an updated masterplan to guide development in the area.

An indicative masterplan drawn up by 5plus Architects was endorsed by the council in 2018 but never formally adopted, creating the need for an updated document.

The TfGM Manchester City Centre Masterplan also has the trams to Salford Quays (https://www.manchester.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/27952/city_centre_transport_strategy_summary.pdf)

Within the Place North west link there is also the picture showing trams on Salford Crescent:

This is actually from: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/ecf-progresses-first-phase-of-2-5bn-salford-crescent/

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Link here with regard to Salford Quays connection: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/ecf-refreshes-salford-crescent-masterplan/



The TfGM Manchester City Centre Masterplan also has the trams to Salford Quays (https://www.manchester.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/27952/city_centre_transport_strategy_summary.pdf)

Within the Place North west link there is also the picture showing trams on Salford Crescent:

This is actually from: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/ecf-progresses-first-phase-of-2-5bn-salford-crescent/

Thanks for the links. The idea of a Metrolink connection between Salford Crescent and Salford Quays is not new, TfGM have had it in their masterplan for quite some time. The illustration of trams on The Crescent is very obviously speculative and seems to be suggestive of replacing existing bus services: there is no mention of any connection to Network Rail tracks. Indeed the whole Place North West concept seems to be far more concerned with good old fashioned property development and any public transport improvements will be happy coincidences.

As for the TfGM City-Centre Masterplan its main aspiration for Metrolink seems to be nothing more than increased frequencies requiring an expanded fleet. There is mention of a possible cross-city tunnel but like so much relating to rail based schemes an awful lot depends on what emerges from the ashes of HS2. It does not seem as though any further expansion of the Metrolink network, regardless of vehicle type, has much of a priority at present. Grand designs are a necessary part of the political aspect to long-term planning but eventually money is needed to pay for it all. And that's going to be in short supply for quite a few years. Personally I do think that visionary thinking is rather lacking in this country but equally it is necessary to be pragmatic about what is actually feasible.

 

[HSTEd]

Not sure why you continue with the nonsense of Merseyrail running to Wigan. The only people supporting this idea are crayonistas seeking to act as empire builders on Merseyrail's behalf. Absolutely no support for it locally. Please stop. As for Southports running via Bolton this would need bi-modes: the 769s fill the role currently but it's highly likely they will be withdrawn from service before modern bi-modes can be delivered. It would be politically disastrous to have diesels running under the wires through Westhoughton, hence the post electrification service pattern will be electrics from North Western via Bolton and diesels from Wallgate via Atherton whether from Headbolt Lane or Southport. The 769s are likely to be used on different routes to those currently operated. Any tramification of the Atherton line will necessarily require that heavy-rail bi-modes are available to maintain cross Wigan services to/from Manchester.

The vast majority of people wouldn't even notice if diesel multiple units are operating under overhead wiring for some period of time.

It would not be a significant political problem.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The vast majority of people wouldn't even notice if diesel multiple units are operating under overhead wiring for some period of time.

It would not be a significant political problem.

Given the current state of public finances and the resultant need to demonstrate value for money from publicly funded schemes I would have to disagree, especially as the operator concerned relies on a fairly high level of subsidy.

 

[daodao]

Not sure why you continue with the nonsense of Merseyrail running to Wigan. The only people supporting this idea are crayonistas seeking to act as empire builders on Merseyrail's behalf. Absolutely no support for it locally. Please stop.

Why? It seems eminently sensible to me to extend 1 tph (Mon-Sat, 0700-1900) from Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate using a Merseyrail class 777 battery emu, to replace the existing dmu service on this line. The costs involved would be minimal; a recharging facility could be installed in the bay platform at Wigan Wallgate if required.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why? It seems eminently sensible to me to extend 1 tph (Mon-Sat, 0700-1900) from Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate using a Merseyrail class 777 battery emu, to replace the existing dmu service on this line. The costs involved would be minimal; a recharging facility could be installed in the bay platform at Wigan Wallgate if required.

Noting your location, how would you feel about the idea of Merseyrail extending its Chester service over the Mid-Cheshire Line to the Altrincham area?

 

[daodao]

Noting your location, how would you feel about the idea of Merseyrail extending its Chester service over the Mid-Cheshire Line to the Altrincham area?

Not comparable. A significant portion of the Wigan-Kirkby line, including Rainford station, is within Merseyside. It is also logical to split this section off from the Atherton line.

 

[yorksrob]

Worst case, if Merseyrail, Metrolink and the Southports all meet at Wigan Wallgate, it provides plenty of options to get large people where they need to go in disruption - even if its not as fast as it could be.

I'm quite fat and I've never had a problem with the trains !

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why? It seems eminently sensible to me to extend 1 tph (Mon-Sat, 0700-1900) from Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate using a Merseyrail class 777 battery emu, to replace the existing dmu service on this line. The costs involved would be minimal; a recharging facility could be installed in the bay platform at Wigan Wallgate if required.

And in the short term it'd save on at least 2 150s/156s on my side.
The back unit is locked after Wigan/Pemberton due to platform lengths.

Not comparable. A significant portion of the Wigan-Kirkby line, including Rainford station, is within Merseyside. It is also logical to split this section off from the Atherton line.

And currently Headbolt Lane just sits in the middle of the line, it's only an interchange because it was forced to be one, rather than any actual need.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Don't some of the rail services from Manchester access Wigan North Western railway station?

Ten midweek trains running direct from Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western, some non-stop.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Ten midweek trains running direct from Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western, some non-stop.

Ah the peak extras, I was only thinking about services that go from Hindley to North Western
The extras run non-stop in the counter-peak direction and stop at Eccles in the peak direction (e.g. the morning services from Wigan to Manchester stop at Eccles).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ah the peak extras, I was only thinking about services that go from Hindley to North Western
The extras run non-stop in the counter-peak direction and stop at Eccles in the peak direction (e.g. the morning services from Wigan to Manchester stop at Eccles).

I am sure that the LNWR had a Wigan North Western to Manchester service in the days of yore, that had stops (amongst others) at Platt Bridge, Howe Bridge and Eccles.

 

[MarkyT]

Why? It seems eminently sensible to me to extend 1 tph (Mon-Sat, 0700-1900) from Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate using a Merseyrail class 777 battery emu, to replace the existing dmu service on this line. The costs involved would be minimal; a recharging facility could be installed in the bay platform at Wigan Wallgate if required.

That could help establish a case for further improvements, first of all extending service hours into evenings and Sundays at minimal additional cost, then doubling to half hourly with any required track improvements.

Headbolt Lane would need to be adapted to create a through track connection, which would need a footbridge, and signalling would need reconfiguring to suit. Service hours restrictions today are probably associated with the cost of round the clock signaller shifts at Rainford Jn which administers the double line AB north to Wigan and the single line NST south to Headbolt Lane, including dealing with the ground frame giving access to the freight terminal. S&T changes associated with reconnecting the lines would be an opportunity to close Rainford Junction SB and convert the double & single track sections either side to TCB controlled from Wigan Wallgate SB, which has a modular NX control panel that might be altered.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why? It seems eminently sensible to me to extend 1 tph (Mon-Sat, 0700-1900) from Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate using a Merseyrail class 777 battery emu, to replace the existing dmu service on this line. The costs involved would be minimal; a recharging facility could be installed in the bay platform at Wigan Wallgate if required.

I have asked a Wigan area holder of a TfGM ENCTS pass, upon which he pays the extra £10.00 annual surcharge that gives tram and train usage in the Greater Manchester area in the usual permitted travel times for his view on that extended Merseyrail service and as he lives in Orrell where the extended TfGM issued ENCTS pass is valid. He is worried that his pass would not be seen as valid by a Merseyrail train personage on the journey from Orrell to Wigan Wallgate.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Not sure why you continue with the nonsense of Merseyrail running to Wigan. The only people supporting this idea are crayonistas seeking to act as empire builders on Merseyrail's behalf. Absolutely no support for it locally. Please stop.

As a Wigan resident I would strongly support the conversion of Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate to Merseyrail. An improvement of and car park next to Upholland station would also improve accessibility to rail for many residents of Skelmersdale.

At a maximum of 45 minutes from Wigan to Liverpool this route would be quicker than the existing stoppers via St Helens and would be between more centrally located stations (although marginal with Wallgate v North Western) so would be well used in travelling between the two and would justify at least a service every half an hour in my view.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As a Wigan resident I would strongly support the conversion of Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate to Merseyrail. An improvement of and car park next to Upholland station would also improve accessibility to rail for many residents of Skelmersdale.

At a maximum of 45 minutes from Wigan to Liverpool this route would be quicker than the existing stoppers via St Helens and would be between more centrally located stations (although marginal with Wallgate v North Western) so would be well used in travelling between the two and would justify at least a service every half an hour in my view.

Don't the existing stoppers serve a very useful service to passengers using those particular railway station? I don't think that there have been much mention made on the "other side of the mayorasl boundary" of a similarly affected Wigan to Manchester service.

 

[HSTEd]

Don't the existing stoppers serve a very useful service to passengers using those particular railway station? I don't think that there have been much mention made on the "other side of the mayorasl boundary" of a similarly affected Wigan to Manchester service.

The traffic figures for the stations between Wigan and Kirkby/Headbolt Lane (not enough time for hte transition to show up in the stats yet) are not really very high.

Rounding to the nearest thousand entries and exits:
Rainford manages 21k.
Upholland manages 22k
Orrell manages 73k
Pemberton manages 35k

So a total for the terminus stations on the branch is 151k
Kirkby managed ~2 million total, Fazarkeley managed 900k.

Wigan Wallgate managed over a million by itself (albeit spread over other services).

I'd expect major net growth in traffic, even if you somehow lost all of the current users.
Worth noting that the most common destination/origin station for Rainford journeys is Liverpool Lime Street.
Upholland is Wigan whilst Orrell and Pemberton are Manchester Piccadilly.

Even if (very conservatively) we give half of Rainford and Upholland traffic to Manchester Piccadilly and all of Orrel and Pemberton traffic that is still only ~129k entries and exits.

129k entries and exits would be a very quiet station compared to what would be expected for a Merseyrail service.
The actual figure will be very much lower than 129k since a far more diverse set of destinations will be represented.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The traffic figures for the stations between Wigan and Kirkby/Headbolt Lane (not enough time for hte transition to show up in the stats yet) are not really very high.

Rounding to the nearest thousand entries and exits:
Rainford manages 21k.
Upholland manages 22k
Orrell manages 73k
Pemberton manages 35k

Thimking of those "Andy Burnham" Greater Manchester mayoral remit railway stations of Orrell and Pemberton, I am sure that he would say that those two railway stations form part of the bus and train public transport network serving that side of the Wigan area. Orell's rail passenger footfall figure that you show as being 73k is quite a good figure for its area and even the figures quoted for Pemberton railway is greater than those shown for both Rainford and Upholland railway stations.

 

[HSTEd]

Thimking of those "Andy Burnham" Greater Manchester mayoral remit railway stations of Orrell and Pemberton, I am sure that he would say that those two railway stations form part of the bus and train public transport network serving that side of the Wigan area.

Yes, but they are rather isolated from the rest of Greater Manchester in the railway sense, and are awkward to serve even now, let alone after any kind of Atherton line conversion process.
Obviously heavy rail services aren't really under the control of the mayor's office anyway.

Orell's rail passenger footfall figure that you show as being 73k is quite a good figure for its area and even the figures quoted for Pemberton railway is greater than those shown for both Rainford and Upholland railway stations.

Orrell's figure looks good until you look at stations in similar settings that are part of the Merseyrail system.
The higher intensity service and long service hours result in it getting absolutely crushed.

I dug into the 22-23 ODM, the most common destinations from Orrell are (merging stations into station groups):

1. Manchester station Group ~29%
2. Wigan station Group ~12%
3. Liverpool station Group ~11%
4. Walkden ~9%
5. Atherton ~8%
6. Kirkby (Merseyside) ~8%

After that it tails off into a variety of minor stations, mostly in GM but also some surprising ones.
(Do people really travel from Pemberton to Warrington by rail?)

For this station the estimate is pretty far from 100% to Manchester as aluded to above.
Liverpool-bound traffic, despite the required change for Merseyrail still accounts for something like ~11% of custom, and a further 20% won't care who operates the service because they are going to Wigan or Kirkby (ignoring splits).

I'm not sure breaking the service at Wigan instead of at Headbolt Lane really inconveniences that many people overall!
Pemberton comes out similar to Orrel, Rainhamford is heavily dominated by Merseyside.
Upholland is dominated by on-branch traffic, with Liverpool and Manchester roughly even at 20% each

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Obviously heavy rail services aren't really under the control of the mayor's office anyway.

I thought that Andy Burnham has already intimated that a number existing Northern Trains rail routes were planned to come under the Bee Network "master transport plan".

Can anyone confirm that such plans exist.

Pemberton comes out similar to Orrel, Rainham is heavily dominated by Merseyside

A part of economic geography of that I was unaware...you learn something new every day on this website.

Incidentally, is it the Rainham in Essex or the Rainham in Kent that is said to be "heavily dominated by Merseyside"?

 

[HSTEd]

A part of economic geography of that I was unaware...you learn something new every day on this website.

Incidentally, is it the Rainham in Essex or the Rainham in Kent that is said to be "heavily dominated by Merseyside"?

I apologise, I mean Rainford.

I keep making that mistake.

 

[Trainguy34]

I apologise, I mean Rainford.

I keep making that mistake.

I mean, I wouldn't complain if they added an express service from Rainham (Kent) to Liverpool any time soon...

 

[stan claire]

It'd be good if they used dual voltage tram-trains, with 25kV for the rail sections and 1500V for the existing sections and street running, so they can operate both trams and trains alongside each other. That way it'll balance both frequency of the trams and the better onboard quality of the trains, giving passengers a choice between each, then the 25kV can be used by Northern bi-modes whenever they arrive. Call me crazy but I think trams AND trains would be a great idea as someone who uses the Atherton line.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It'd be good if they used dual voltage tram-trains, with 25kV for the rail sections and 1500V for the existing sections and street running, so they can operate both trams and trains alongside each other. That way it'll balance both frequency of the trams and the better onboard quality of the trains, giving passengers a choice between each, then the 25kV can be used by Northern bi-modes whenever they arrive. Call me crazy but I think trams AND trains would be a great idea as someone who uses the Atherton line.

I am beginning to think that tram-trains intended end-users have now had enough information based upon their trials in the Sheffield area for certain bodies to have taken forward matters to the next stage by this time in 2024.

 

[507020]

Basically if we want trams on the Atherton line, we need full requadrupling with Wigan and Southport train services retained, but running non-stop on the reinstated fast lines and a superior stopping service operated on the upgraded slow lines. They can’t coexist on 2 tracks without destroying one or the other in some way. A through service would either be incredibly slow, continuing as a tram, being stuck behind one or unable to run at all, or you could simply close all the intermediate stations.

Why are we actually in such a poor situation with what was intended as a high speed main line from the Liverpool docks and south Lancashire collieries into Bury and Yorkshire?