TOCs: scrap 2m rule, drop 'avoid public transport' message, Govt should fund rail until Sept 2021

[Cardiff123]

TOCs are asking the government to relax the 2m social distancing rule for trains to increase capacity, and are rightly telling the government that the 'avoid public transport' message needs to be dropped as it's doing severe long term damage to public confidence in travelling by public transport.
They also want the government to underwrite the rail industry until at least September 2021, where as the current govt financial support in England runs out this September.

Coronavirus: Rail operators call for 1m distancing

A government order to avoid public transport will have terrible long-term consequences for the industry and environment, ministers have been told.Operators have urged the government to drop what they call its negative messaging about the risks of using public transport because of fears that it will

www.thetimes.co.uk

A government order to avoid public transport will have terrible long-term consequences for the industry and environment, ministers have been told.

Operators have urged the government to drop what they call its negative messaging about the risks of using public transport because of fears that it will deter people for years.

They are lobbying ministers and officials for a cut in the existing two-metre spacing between people — seen as necessary to stop the transmission of coronavirus — because the policy significantly limits passenger numbers.

Operators say that the introduction of compulsory face coverings on buses, trains and trams next Monday should be combined with a cut in the gap between passengers to help capacity.

The government is already underwriting all rail franchises because of the sharp drop in passenger numbers after the lockdown. The existing “emergency measures agreements”, believed to be costing £900 million a month, are due to expire at the end of September but rail operators insist that they will have to be extended because passenger numbers continue to be depressed, making services loss-making.

They are believed to favour a continuation of the present model until at least September next year: 18 months in total. A further £254 million was announced last month to subsidise bus services and Transport for London has been given a £1.6 billion rescue package.

Train operators are preparing to increase services to near normal levels at the start of next month. Carriages can only accommodate between 10 and 20 per cent of passengers, however, because of social distancing, and commuters will have to travel off-peak or endure long queues. Some double-decker buses can carry a maximum of only 24 passengers compared with up to 120 people before the lockdown.

One public transport source said that cutting the gap to one metre would allow trains to carry an estimated 45 per cent of usual passengers. Britain and Spain are the only European countries with a two-metre rule. The World Health Organisation, Hong Kong, France and China have one-metre guidelines; Australia, Germany and the Netherlands 1.5 metres. No 10 is thought to be keen to relax the rule to allow more people inside schools, shops and, ultimately, pubs and restaurants. It is considering guidelines that could allow people to be closer if they are back to back or outdoors.

Operators are urging ministers to make the change and drop its advice to avoid public transport. Grant Shapps, the transport secretary, cited the policy on Thursday as he made face coverings mandatory. He said: “If you cannot work from home you should avoid public transport wherever possible.”

Operators say that the message has started to scare people away from public transport, potentially having a profound long-term impact and leading to more people using cars. One source said: “At the peak of lockdown it was right to suppress demand but we will need to move on from deterrence to a more nuanced message as we go into the recovery phase. Without that change you’re going to see people lose the public transport habit within weeks and that will have terrible consequences both for the industry and the environment.”

 

[yorksrob]

I agree 100% with all that.

I'm glad that the industry is starting to lobby.

 

[Huntergreed]

Hallelujah! Finally a grain of sense in what seems to be a completely broken society.

This is very positive news. We really need to open the transport network up again and drop 2m distancing, which is completely impractical, to a much more sensible and sustainable model of working. I’m glad to see the TOC’s are finally realising the damage this will do and this will hopefully bring about some very positive change in the next month to hopefully give a big boost to the hospitality, tourist and leisure industries.

 

[BJames]

I filled with joy reading that. Some common sense and competence finally returns to this country. Thank goodness for that.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

So the TOCs that for the last 3 months have been telling leisure passengers to eff off now suddenly decide they want us to travel with them after all?

It's great they've finally got the message but I think the over-the-top "essential travel only" message they've been peddling for too long may have scared many people off the railways for good.

 

[james60059]

So the TOCs that for the last 3 months have been telling leisure passengers to eff off now suddenly decide they want us to travel with them after all?

Cool, I'm off down Nuneaton to book my HofE Rover for when I'm off (I am kidding by the way ). Joking aside, it will be good to return to some sort of normality

 

[BJames]

So the TOCs that for the last 3 months have been telling leisure passengers to eff off now suddenly decide they want us to travel with them after all?

It's great they've finally got the message but I think the over-the-top "essential travel only" message they've been peddling for too long may have scared many people off the railways for good.

To be fair to some of them at least, at the beginning, they were only following what the government said. But in the last few weeks this message needed to have been dropped. We certainly shouldn't be seeing it past this week when more non-essential activity starts to reopen.

 

[YorksDMU]

That’s good to hear, and I’ll be on the train from Beverley to Hull next Monday.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The trouble with any such decision is that, inevitably, it does carry political baggage. That is only ever a burden - never a benefit, but it's there nevertheless.
Suppose they had not made any such ruling. Or, suppose they do indeed relax it.
Suppose that the outcome of that (notwithstanding WHOs latest missive on the subject which may or may not be valid) is that many more people caught/catch the disease.

You can hear the opposition and/or back benchers now - asking why they didn't {do the opposite of whatever they did}. Which, as I say, is almost always unhelpful in fact, but happens nevertheless.

I sympathise with the decision makers. It's not a role I would want.

 

[yorksrob]

The trouble with any such decision is that, inevitably, it does carry political baggage. That is only ever a burden - never a benefit, but it's there nevertheless.
Suppose they had not made any such ruling. Or, suppose they do indeed relax it.
Suppose that the outcome of that (notwithstanding WHOs latest missive on the subject which may or may not be valid) is that many more people caught/catch the disease.

You can hear the opposition and/or back benchers now - asking why they didn't {do the opposite of whatever they did}. Which, as I say, is almost always unhelpful in fact, but happens nevertheless.

I sympathise with the decision makers. It's not a role I would want.

Given the other relaxations taking place, any impact of dropping the essential travel message is likely to be proportionally small. They also have the fall-back position of requiring face-covering for now.

Plus, they can use positive messaging in terms of providing equality for non car owners.

 

[37424]

Personally I disagree especially scrapping the 2m rule at this stage, we need to wait at least another 4 weeks to see where this disease is going in my view. If we say social distancing isn't possible on public transport which agree it is difficult then that may be counter productive as well as some people will be even more inclined to avoid public transport, especially in parts of the country where avoiding public transport is more feasible.

A friend of mine works for a car dealer and by all accounts they have been doing brisk business from people who currently don't own a car, I don't see an easy way back for public transport anytime soon except in areas such as London where the alternatives are more difficult, I know i wont be using public transport anytime soon.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I disagree especially scrapping the 2m rule at this stage, we need to wait at least another 4 weeks to see where this disease is going in my view. If we say social distancing isn't possible on public transport which agree it is difficult then that may be counter productive as well as some people will be even more inclined to avoid public transport, especially in parts of the country where avoiding public transport is more feasible.

A friend of mine works for a car dealer and by all accounts they have been doing brisk business from people who currently don't own a car, I don't see an easy way back for public transport anytime soon except in areas such as London where the alternatives are more difficult, I know i wont be using public transport anytime soon.

I don't see how scrapping the 2m rule will be counterproductive if no one is travelling. Realistically such a ruling is unlikely to come in immediately, so it may well be a few weeks before coming into force anyway.

Your second paragraph illustrates both why this change is needed, and also why it may not be such a risk to implement.

 

[py_megapixel]

I have long held the view that the TOCs don't really have any right to additional government subsidy or underwriting; when they took on the franchise they agreed to provide a specific level of service at a specific cost, and if they fail to do so, whatever the cause, then that's on them.
However, this is a very extreme circumstance and possibly in this case they have a point.

 

[Skymonster]

Any further public funding MUST be allied to an acceptance that the public are "allowed" to use the railway again - it is unacceptable to expect taxpayers to fund a service from which they are effectively being excluded (yes, yes, I know - but its currently more or less banned as far as the average person is concerned as they don't dig into the detail). And when I say the public should be allowed to use the railway again, I mean allowed to use it when they need to use it - not just allowed on at off-peak times, not prevented from getting on because the 10-20% of seats not blocked off are all occupied.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Personally I disagree especially scrapping the 2m rule at this stage, we need to wait at least another 4 weeks to see where this disease is going in my view.

Why another 4 weeks? It's pretty clear that the daily infections and death rates are falling rapidly and have been doing for several days now, and the slight relaxing of the lockdown restrictions has had no significant effect on the R number.

 

[Bikeman78]

Any further public funding MUST be allied to an acceptance that the public are "allowed" to use the railway again - it is unacceptable to expect taxpayers to fund a service from which they are effectively being excluded (yes, yes, I know - but its currently more or less banned as far as the average person is concerned as they don't dig into the detail). And when I say the public should be allowed to use the railway again, I mean allowed to use it when they need to use it - not just allowed on at off-peak times, not prevented from getting on because the 10-20% of seats not blocked off are all occupied.

The worst bit is that plenty of off peak trains were lightly loaded before the virus. I could spend a whole day trundling around in 315s or 317s and have a bay of six seats to myself except in the peak. Same on the EMUs around Glasgow.

 

[37424]

Why another 4 weeks? It's pretty clear that the daily infections and death rates are falling rapidly and have been doing for several days now, and the slight relaxing of the lockdown restrictions has had no significant effect on the R number.

I think that remains to be seen there is clearly a lag between actions and consequences

 

[yorksrob]

I think that remains to be seen there is clearly a lag between actions and consequences

This is a fair point.

However, I don't see any point in opening up other sections of the economy while keeping unduly severe restrictions on public transport.

 

[xc170]

Any further public funding MUST be allied to an acceptance that the public are "allowed" to use the railway again - it is unacceptable to expect taxpayers to fund a service from which they are effectively being excluded (yes, yes, I know - but its currently more or less banned as far as the average person is concerned as they don't dig into the detail). And when I say the public should be allowed to use the railway again, I mean allowed to use it when they need to use it - not just allowed on at off-peak times, not prevented from getting on because the 10-20% of seats not blocked off are all occupied.

Yes, agreed, as a tax payer, I do not want my money being handed over to the railway if they're going to effectively ban the general public from using it unless they're part of this invisible army of "key workers".

 

[Silverlinky]

Why another 4 weeks? It's pretty clear that the daily infections and death rates are falling rapidly and have been doing for several days now, and the slight relaxing of the lockdown restrictions has had no significant effect on the R number.

A few weeks ago passengers had to abide by the two metre guidance whilst not wearing a mask....from Monday two metres is still here and mask wearing is compulsory. Seems like we're going backwards rather than forwards.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder how much scope the TOC's have to drop the "avoid public transport" message anyway, regardless of what central Government says.

Yes, it wouldn't affect the Government messaging, but it would allow them to have more welcoming messaging in their own estate.

 

[Cardiff123]

A few weeks ago I would've said the 2 metre rule and avoiding public transport needed to stay in place. But the situation is now evolving, more people are travelling, and unless we are happy to go back to the dark days of the 1960s, 70s and 80s of public transport, where it was all about cuts rather than investment, the 'avoid public transport message' needs to be dropped.

People with underlying health conditions maybe should still be told to avoid PT if possible, but everyone else should be encouraged to use gloves and face masks and return to public transport.

It's easy to forget that were not only living through a health crisis, but also a global climate crisis. We've just had the wettest winter on record followed by the driest and hottest spring on record. I suspect this summer will still be hot as well. The glaciers are melting. We can't encourage everyone into cars without consequences.
Not only that, toxic air pollution is known to increase vulnerability to the virus. So it's not in anyone's interest for our towns and cities to get toxic air from everyone driving.

 

[Skymonster]

I think that remains to be seen there is clearly a lag between actions and consequences

Oh come on - get realistic. The sit-at-home corona-moaners said we'd spike again after the VE Day celebrations a month ago - didn't happen. Then they said we'd spike again after the sunny weekends when lots of people went to the beach - hasn't happened. Next it was people packing onto the tube that would cause a spike - didn't happen, in fact London is currently faring better than most of the rest of the UK. Now the corona-moaners are saying the BLM demonstrations will cause a spike. What will be the next challenge the moaners jump on - I suspect they'll find one? We can't wait forever. Things haven't rebounded and its now time to acknowledge and start to accept that public transport isn't the gigantic risk its been made out to be.

 

[Ianno87]

I have long held the view that the TOCs don't really have any right to additional government subsidy or underwriting; when they took on the franchise they agreed to provide a specific level of service at a specific cost, and if they fail to do so, whatever the cause, then that's on them.
However, this is a very extreme circumstance and possibly in this case they have a point.

No, the franchise is signed on the basis of reasonably likely economic scenarios agreed with the DfT.

Covid is wayyyyy off the bottom of that chart.

In this instance, multiple franchise defaults on even worse terms and limited capability to manage them all would've been the alternative.

 

[infobleep]

I'd be happy not to avoid public transport and to travel more often but the office I'd most likely travel to cannot accommodate lots of people in this new way of working.

I suspect that is the case for many others too. If the social distance was reduced to 1m this may help to an extent but not entirely, as it's not just about the social distance but also things like toilet usage and kitchen usage.

There has to be a reason to travel.

 

[Non Multi]

I still consider the biggest blow for public transport to be the success of working from home. From commuting every weekday to only travelling to a main office when required. Office commuters were a major income stream, I seriously doubt they will return to daily commuting after this is over.

If the unions go on strike, what impact will it have? The car parks are empty. The stations are empty. The trains are empty. The major stations are ghost towns. A traditional union picket line in front of a vacant rail terminus would sum up 2020 perfectly.

 

[221129]

The article andnews story I was referring to......

With no mention of a strike.

 

[C J Snarzell]

As I've commented on another thread - I do believe the 2 metre rule needs to go in order to save many other businesses, not necessarily in the rail industry.

My own view is that the licencing trade, gyms, health spa's are not going to survive if the government maintains the 2 metre rule. The rail industry has suffered a massive blow financially. The Manchester Metrolink (although not a TOC) were in real trouble financially in April & were seeking help from Mayor Andy Burnham because their revenue had plummeted.

As another forum member has commented - the virus is now on the decline. I am of the opinion that the worst of this horrible epidemic is behind us. Even if you open the flood gates to allow life to return to normal I have my doubts that the disease will return with a vengeance and claim more lives.

The news seems to suggest the strength of the virus is weakening so anyone unfortunate enough to get it now will perhaps only suffer mild symptoms in comparison to if they got it in February.

I do think as responsible members of the public (most of us anyway!) the onus should be down to common sense when using public transport. Enforce good personal hygiene, wear a face mask & clearly do not go anywhere near other people if you feel slightly unwell.

As we have already seen in London - the 2 metre rule cannot be enforced because of the volume of people who rely on public transport.

CJ

 

[Ianno87]

I still consider the biggest blow for public transport to be the success of working from home. From commuting every weekday to only travelling to a main office when required. Office commuters were a major income stream, I seriously doubt they will return to daily commuting after this is over.

A lot of revenue, but a lot of cost associated with resources to operate the peak, particularly on the "peakier" London routes (e.g. Cannon Street / Fenchurch St / Liverpool Street GEML).

Demand is likely to return on a more all-day basis, e.g a couple of hours at home first thing, in mid morning for office catchups, back home for dinner.

 

[Mike395]

The 'avoid public transport' message I suspect will be dropped at the same time as air travel is opened up again (predicted to be the last week of June). You can't have a scenario where you're trying to encourage travel to/from airports for leisure, with all the associated lack of social distancing on a flying metal tube, but you have to take a private car to get to the airport.