Todmorden Curve

[Deerfold]

TSo, that will release at least a dozen dmu's, which it's inconceivablewill not result in a couple staying with the same TOC to run the services to Burnley.

That word - I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That word - I do not think it means what you think it means.

Inconceivable.....

(1)...Unbelievable
(2)...Not capable of being imagined or grasped mentally

 

[Deerfold]

Inconceivable.....

(1)...Unbelievable
(2)...Not capable of being imagined or grasped mentally

Oh, both I and Inigo Montoya are aware of its meaning.

Perhaps I just have a better imagination than John R

 

[Polo Mint]

Once the curve has been complete will one of the express Rochdale services be extended to Burnley? Or will capacity be added to the already busy line? Couldn't a similar curve be added at Castleton to provide rail service to Heywood?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Reading further, the date that FCC will cascade them is given as May, which should be ample time to get them ready for service with Northern by December.

That is plenty of time. This also lends to how long does a refurb take? Is it possible to refurb 4 of them at once use two on the Piccadilly to Wigan section for driver training then refurb those two as well. I think Todmorden Curve will be fine come December 2014.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is plenty of time. This also lends to how long does a refurb take? Is it possible to refurb 4 of them at once use two on the Piccadilly to Wigan section for driver training then refurb those two as well. I think Todmorden Curve will be fine come December 2014.

But not much use for the May 2014 timetable period when the Northern Rail York to Blackpool North services will once again be running through the Holme tunnel but not on the "all will be quiet on the Western Front" rail service that is the "hopes-dashed " Blackburn/Copy Pit line/ Manchester new service for a further period of SEVEN MONTHS until December 2014..

 

[YorkshireBear]

But not much use for the May 2014 timetable period when the Northern Rail York to Blackpool North services will once again be running through the Holme tunnel but not on the "all will be quiet on the Western Front" rail service that is the "hopes-dashed " Blackburn/Copy Pit line/ Manchester new service for a further period of SEVEN MONTHS until December 2014..

I am afraid i can't share your anger, it has been built and that is fantastic. 7 months is tiny fraction of the many years it has been missing. For the first 7 months it will benefit the people north of Rochdale, then its benefits will spread. Many infrastructure projects work like this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am afraid i can't share your anger, it has been built and that is fantastic. 7 months is tiny fraction of the many years it has been missing. For the first 7 months it will benefit the people north of Rochdale, then its benefits will spread. Many infrastructure projects work like this.

Many projects are not bid-money projects where the bid monies are also for other projects (the reinvigoration of the Weavers Triangle in Burnley being the other part of the bid that was successful). The Rochdale area stated by you was NEVER part of a bid to invigorate the East Lancashire area.

I have said this before that when the bid submission was made by Burnley Council as the bid lead authority in the hope of obtaining the bid monies for ALL PARTS of the bid, Northern Rail knowing that as the TOC in that franchise area, should have been completely open in the preliminary bid discussion with the bid team about the fact that no rolling stock would have been available to run the service after the infrastructural and signalling works on the Todmorden Chord had been fully completed for full operational use. Hiding unpleasant facts is not a good PR ploy when matters such as the current fiasco come to light and are broadcast by the newspapers and the radio and television for the public in the affected area to inform the populace at large.

 

[tbtc]

Northern Rail knowing that as the TOC in that franchise area, should have been completely open in the preliminary bid discussion with the bid team about the fact that no rolling stock would have been available to run the service after the infrastructural and signalling works on the Todmorden Chord had been fully completed for full operational use

As has been explained on this thread, Serco/ Abellio weren't going to be operating the franchise by the time that the work was completed (at the time when the bids were submitted).

The franchise should have finished a couple of years ago, but was extended to September 2013 (back in 2010).

Then, it was going to be March 2014 - i.e. still before the chord opened (awarded in May 2012).

Earlier this year, it was extended for another couple of years - until February 2016.

As usual, Northern Rail get the blame on this Forum for something that wasn't their fault - they were never going to be operating services after this expensive 500 metre chord was going to be operational - until their further extension was awarded about six months ago.

Given that stock/ electrification plans/ cascades/ building this chord are all out of Northern's hands, and they weren't going to be running the franchise in 2014, how is it exactly their fault that there's no spare stock?

 

[John R]

Oh, both I and Inigo Montoya are aware of its meaning.

Perhaps I just have a better imagination than John R

Well I am an actuary....

Once the emu's are up and running on NW Electrification Phase 2, can you imagine the uproar if the Tod'n Curve remains unused, and the dmu's that could have used it have all been transferred elsewhere. It just won't happen - politicians won't allow it, so DaFT will ensure that enough units get held back. Remember also, we will be 5 months away from a General Election in Dec 14.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The franchise should have finished a couple of years ago, but was extended to September 2013 (back in 2010). Then, it was going to be March 2014 - i.e. still before the chord opened (awarded in May 2012).

You appear to have have answered your own point here by stating that the Northern Rail franchise was extended in 2010, which was one year prior to the bid being submitted in 2011 and the no-spare-stock position has been made clear ever since that time. Hence, Northern Rail were in a position to inform the bid committee of that fact in the preliminary pre-bid discussions.

2013, not 2014, was supposed to have been the target date for operational functionality, but the now-required works from 9th November 2013 to 28th March 2014 on the Holme tunnel were the reason for the March 2014 date.

So where does the NINE month time period from March 2014 to December 2014 now enter into the equation ?

 

[tbtc]

You appear to have have answered your own point here by stating that the Northern Rail franchise was extended in 2010, which was one year prior to the bid being submitted in 2011 and the no-spare-stock position has been made clear ever since that time. Hence, Northern Rail were in a position to inform the bid committee of that fact in the preliminary pre-bid discussions.

2013, not 2014, was supposed to have been the target date for operational functionality, but the now-required works from 9th November 2013 to 28th March 2014 on the Holme tunnel were the reason for the March 2014 date.

So where does the NINE month time period from March 2014 to December 2014 now enter into the equation ?

Between 2010 and 2012, the franchise was scheduled to end in September 2013.

Back then, the £500m chord appears to have been scheduled to open for passenger service in December 2013 - Lancashire Telegraph article here - http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...odmorden_Curve_line_could_be_running_by_2013/

Then again, since Northern can afford a doubled up 142+150 combination on the Kirkby services (according to another thread) and have plenty of doubled up Pacer diagrams around Manchester, I'm sure they'll be able to find stock for the extended Rochdale/ Burnley diagrams - just at the cost of robbing capacity from other services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Then again, since Northern can afford a doubled up 142+150 combination on the Kirkby services (according to another thread) and have plenty of doubled up Pacer diagrams around Manchester, I'm sure they'll be able to find stock for the extended Rochdale/ Burnley diagrams - just at the cost of robbing capacity from other services.

I now find that we have common ground, as indeed what you say is true, but I really would have thought that Northern Rail would have had a great deal of prestige to gain by providing the rolling stock for the new Blackburn-Copy Pit line-Manchester service, by the judicious use of what is employed as doubled up units elsewhere as was so succinctly stated in your posting.

The problem as I see it, is they have already now made public the fact that there is a rolling stock problem for the new line, instead of considering the excellent solution that you have made in your posting.

 

[YorkshireBear]

But Paul... Can you imagine the headlines. Profit hungry Northern reduce carriages to Manchester in the peak to make more money for shareholders.

Small print that the units have been moved to create new service via Todmorden curve.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But Paul... Can you imagine the headlines. Profit hungry Northern reduce carriages to Manchester in the peak to make more money for shareholders.

Small print that the units have been moved to create new service via Todmorden curve.

I, in my imagination read....

"Northern Rail help to launch the new rail service to Manchester to invigorate East Lancashire"

 

[YorkshireBear]

I, in my imagination read....

"Northern Rail help to launch the new rail service to Manchester to invigorate East Lancashire"[/B]

That is what it should read and i agree. But is that what it will read?

Three years of reading the forum makes me think not.

If ever a man wants to become a cynic he should research the railways.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If ever a man wants to become a cynic he should research the railways.

What a most thoughtful posting above...This could be an ideal forum signature for a new forum member to use.

I am sure though that you will be most aware that both our existing forum signatures extol the benefits of cynicism....

 

[Darren R]

The article in the Lancashire Telegraph article linked, which suggested an opening date of 2013, wasn't actually based on anything concrete though - just local political gossip by councils. Even by the time the article appeared planning documents published on the Network Rail website stated they were working to a Spring 2014 opening.

I think the Todmorden Curve is an unfortunate victim of timing. At the time the funding was confirmed the DfT was expecting it to open under the new franchise, so didn't bother giving any detailed consideration to rolling stock and service levels as it would all be worked out as part of the franchising process. Unfortunately that hasn't worked out terribly well.....

Surely the UK must be unique in being able to open a new railway line without any consideration being given as to whether or not there are any trains to run on it!

 

[YorkshireBear]

What a most thoughtful posting above...This could be an ideal forum signature for a new forum member to use.

I am sure though that you will be most aware that both our existing forum signatures extol the benefits of cynicism....

Hmm maybe i should work it into my own signature.

 

[CalderRail]

The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who do not possess it.

George Bernard Shaw, I believe.

 

[Darren R]

A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist - Bernard Woolley

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Give a TOC Class 373 units, result happiness.

Give a TOC Class 142 units, result misery.


Paul Sidorczuk.....with apologies.

 

[Signal Head]

That is what it should read and i agree. But is that what it will read?

Three years of reading the forum makes me think not.

If ever a man wants to become a cynic he should research the railways.

Or work for them. It's quicker. And longer lasting. :roll:

 

[Techniquest]

You want to be a cynic overnight? Trying working in retail...

Not that she'll ever see this here, but sorry young lady, positive thinking and finding your happy place doesn't work in my workplace! Cynicism and misery rule the roost where I am!

 

[D841 Roebuck]

You want to be a cynic overnight? Trying working in retail...

Not that she'll ever see this here, but sorry young lady, positive thinking and finding your happy place doesn't work in my workplace! Cynicism and misery rule the roost where I am!

I thought finding a young lady's happy place was a five-part process, starting about 3/4" below her left nipple...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought finding a young lady's happy place was a five-part process, starting about 3/4" below her left nipple...

Now then, young rapscallion, talk like this affects some the elderly members of the forum who seem to have the memory of such adventures, but now lack the wherewithal to do anything about it...

My good lady wife is just rushing back to my study with a bottle of bromide to add a certain something to my early morning beverage...

 

[northwichcat]

Between 2010 and 2012, the franchise was scheduled to end in September 2013.

Back then, the £500m chord appears to have been scheduled to open for passenger service in December 2013 - Lancashire Telegraph article here - http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...odmorden_Curve_line_could_be_running_by_2013/

Chat Moss was originally set to have EMUs on local services in December 13 under the previous government's electrification plans. However, the current government ordered a spending review in to all infrastructure projects which put everything back by a timetable change.

 

[edwin_m]

The PTEs have paid for Northern to introduce extra units on peak workings and wouldn't be too happy if they were used for something else instead.

However I wonder if there would be the possibility of using a couple of these units to provide an inter-peak service to Burnley via the curve? True it wouldn't help with the commuter demand in the peaks but it would provide a tangible benefit for shopping and leisure passengers and get people used to the idea of a service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The PTEs have paid for Northern to introduce extra units on peak workings and wouldn't be too happy if they were used for something else instead.

However I wonder if there would be the possibility of using a couple of these units to provide an inter-peak service to Burnley via the curve? True it wouldn't help with the commuter demand in the peaks but it would provide a tangible benefit for shopping and leisure passengers and get people used to the idea of a service.

Can I once again stress the fact that the bid submission for the monies that was successful, together with the improvements works for the Weavers Triangle at Burnley, was for the "invigoration of that area of East Lancashire".

What you say above about an inter-peak service is most certainly NOT what was in the mind of Burnley Council who were the lead bid authority, when the finally-agreed bid submission was tendered.

 

[northwichcat]

The PTEs have paid for Northern to introduce extra units on peak workings and wouldn't be too happy if they were used for something else instead.

True and as I mentioned earlier in the thread Northern's DMUs will be stretched further from May 2014 with shorter turnaround times and more through services at Victoria to make sure the Bolton corridor has sufficient capacity following on from the TPE changes.

However I wonder if there would be the possibility of using a couple of these units to provide an inter-peak service to Burnley via the curve? True it wouldn't help with the commuter demand in the peaks but it would provide a tangible benefit for shopping and leisure passengers and get people used to the idea of a service.

The X43 bus service provides an excellent off-peak service between Manchester and Burnley, which runs via the Motorway between Prestwich and Rawtenstall. The downside of it is at peak times it has to deal with central Manchester traffic slowing down journeys.

As an example of what happens when a rail service is off-peak only see the Warrington Bank Quay to Liverpool Lime Street service between Warrington and Earlestown. Warrington could potentially provide useful connections to and from WCML services, yet people don't use it for that.