Todmorden Curve

[Polo Mint]

How long is the train journey expected to take from Burnley to Victoria? 35 mins-ish? I feel that will be the significant factor when competing with the bus?

Will a Rochdale terminating train be extended to Burnley or will extra trains be run on the line? Bearing in mind it is a busy line.

I surprised there is not enthusiasm for a 'Castleton curve' so Heywood can be served by regularly rail services. The infrastructure and demand is clearly there.

I know this may be off-topic but what happens with the current Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool line when the Chat Moss line gets electrified? Will the TPE/East Midlands trains get diverted via Chat Moss or would Chat Moss get trains in addition to the current trains? What would be the time saving through the Chat Moss line compared to via Warrington?

What would be ideal in the long term would be an electrified Caldervale line with some Trans Pennine services from Manchester to Leeds, with stops in Bradford, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden and Rochdale. Surely this must be faster than going through Huddersfield?

 

[YorkshireBear]

How long is the train journey expected to take from Burnley to Victoria? 35 mins-ish? I feel that will be the significant factor when competing with the bus?

Will a Rochdale terminating train be extended to Burnley or will extra trains be run on the line? Bearing in mind it is a busy line.

I surprised there is not enthusiasm for a 'Castleton curve' so Heywood can be served by regularly rail services. The infrastructure and demand is clearly there.

I know this may be off-topic but what happens with the current Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool line when the Chat Moss line gets electrified? Will the TPE/East Midlands trains get diverted via Chat Moss or would Chat Moss get trains in addition to the current trains? What would be the time saving through the Chat Moss line compared to via Warrington?

What would be ideal in the long term would be an electrified Caldervale line with some Trans Pennine services from Manchester to Leeds, with stops in Bradford, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden and Rochdale. Surely this must be faster than going through Huddersfield?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60290&page=67

This thread has all information on Manc to Liverpool electrification.

TPE Scarborough train will go down the Chat Moss EMT train will remain, i believe the third fast train between Sheffield and Manchester is to be diverted to Liverpool to maintain two fast trains per hour to Manc and Liverpool for Warrington.

This is Transpennine electrification thread

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=88054

And the Caldervale line is FAR FAR slower than the main TPE route and always will be due to reversal, indirect route and curvature. It should be electrified but not for that reason.

Please direct your reply to this into the other threads.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Rail is always seen as more attractive than the Bus unless journey times can't compete. I sense in the peaks rail journey times will annihilate those of the local roads!

Do you foresee a price war between bus and rail services ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Do you foresee a price war between bus and rail services ?

Depends if you base it on Sheffield where a similar situation occurs.

Chapeltown - Bus in peak can take 60-75 minutes, off peak 30-45 minutes. Train takes 15 minutes.

Peak train more expensive, off peak train far far far cheaper.

So based on that, WHO KNOWS!

I foresee a price war and a redistribution of buses!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How long is the train journey expected to take from Burnley to Victoria? 35 mins-ish? I feel that will be the significant factor when competing with the bus?

I think that a Sowerby Bridge to Manchester service takes 46 minutes and must be of a similar distance.

Another matter of course is that the X43 runs every 10 minutes in the morning connectional peak and Burnley bus station is far more accessible as a bus interchange. Both the two proposed Burnley stations are not exactly what you would call in the centre of the town.

 

[Darren R]

Of course journey times are dependent on stopping patterns (and we still don't yet know what they are going to be between Todmorden and Victoria) but it's going to be a little less than an hour from Burnley to Vic (55 minutes-ish, give or take a few minutes.) That's quite competitive compared to even off-peak buses, and considerably faster for for 'rush hour' commuters. But of course that's just headline journey times from Burnley town centre, and doesn't take into account time taken to get to the station. For many people the railway station will be a bus-ride away from their homes, and this will be a factor in the success of the train service.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

From what I've gathered from differing sources (official and local press), these are the planned changes to services on the Calder Valley line into Victoria. If anyone knows anything different official, please feel free to correct this.

a) May 2014, the current hourly Rochdale stopper is extended to Tod, calling at all stations (not sure about Walsden). The Calder Valley trains via Bradford (2tph) stop at Tod, Rochdale and Victoria only. GMPTE have negotiated some rush hour stops for these trains at Littleborough and Smithy Bridge to allow commuters to travel to Halifax/Bradford, otherwise these stations only have an hourly Leeds service via Dewsbury. They do get a train every 30mins into Manchester instead of the current 20min/40min split. West Yorkshire stations get improved journey times into Manchester.
b) Dec 2014 (whenever), the all stations to Tod service is extended to Blackburn. I guess journey time between Manchester and Burnley will be around 55mins initially.
c) 2016. The Burnley service stops at Tod/Littleborough(?)/Rochdale only, so I guess journey time will improve to around 40mins. Calder Valley via Bradford to Manchester will become 3tph, the extra train I assume will be an all stations to replace the Burnley stopper. One Calder Valley train extended to Manchester Airport(?).

Edit: The Northern Hub plans also promised to "enable faster journeys on the line between Bradford and Manchester" by 2016. Whether this is satisfied by the change in calling patterns, or whether there are also planned upgrades to the rolling stock/line speeds I don't know.

 

[joeykins82]

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/northern-hub/

The Bradford to Manchester Airport/Liverpool improvements just say that the Calder Valley Line is getting infrastructure improvements, including an extra platform at Rochdale station so that through trains can overtake terminating services.

 

[northwichcat]

The Ordsall Chord is supposed to get 4tph on it between the Airport and Victoria. Half of them will be Airport-York services, the other half are expected to be Rochdale services but will depend how Calder Vale services fit in.

The Calder Vale line is also expected to get one train extended to Chester via Warrington and they are looking at an additional Halifax-Bradford-Leeds service every hour which won't originate from Manchester.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Statements about line speed improvement as part of the Northern Hub (e.g. in WY Metro documents) seem to have their source in the High Level Output Statement – July 2012 which does specifically say line speed improvements to Bradford rather than faster journeys. Whether this is an error or not I don't know.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think the NW electrification Phase 2 was ever due to go live in May 2014.
It has always been Dec 2014, and includes the last mile into Victoria.
Expectations of cascaded DMUs for Todmorden were therefore misplaced.

The delay in transferring EMUs north is down to the Thameslink order, and is not solely down to DfT.
You can also blame Siemens and the banks (and the recession).

Edit:
One possible solution is to delay the cascade of TPE 185s and use a couple on, say, Northern's Blackpool service, or Hazel Grove-Preston.
This would free up NT units for Burnley.
But you would be penalizing TP passengers, and it's not TP's problem.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Expectations of cascaded DMUs for Todmorden were therefore misplaced. The delay in transferring EMUs north is down to the Thameslink order, and is not solely down to DfT. You can also blame Siemens and the banks (and the recession).

It is postings such as this that bring the truth of the matter to the attention of the contributors to this particular thread.

 

[Viscount702]

I don't think the NW electrification Phase 2 was ever due to go live in May 2014.

It was along with the completion of Victoria. However as we know everything seems to about six months late at the moment. Unfortunately I don't think there are any document showing that now as they have all be revised.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

The Calder Vale line is also expected to get one train extended to Chester via Warrington and they are looking at an additional Halifax-Bradford-Leeds service every hour which won't originate from Manchester.

So how would the speeding up of Burnley to Manchester services be implemented, by reintroducing a Victoria to Tod stopper?

 

[YorkshireBear]

So how would the speeding up of Burnley to Manchester services be implemented, by reintroducing a Victoria to Tod stopper?

Essentially yes to make the Burnley service semi fast from Todmorden.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think the NW electrification Phase 2 was ever due to go live in May 2014.
It has always been Dec 2014, and includes the last mile into Victoria.

When the Coalition government took power they ordered for no new projects to start until a spending review had been done. The spending review delayed North West electrification by around 6 months and Thameslink by around 9 months (compared to the previous government's plans.) There was a few months in late 2010 when it was anticipated the North West would get new EMUs as the Coalition gave the go-ahead to North West electrification but wouldn't commit to Thameslink.

If everything had gone to plan then next week we would see all Manchester-Scotland services being electric and the 185s released filling the void via Bolton. Then next May we would see 5tph on North TPE (as still expected) and the extra 185s used on North TPE would have been released off the Bolton corridor as a result of 319s running services on Chat Moss and the associated cascade of DMUs.

The Todmorden Curve scheme was approved in late 2011 and the revised electrification schedule came out in early 2012.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Todmorden Curve scheme may have been submitted before NW electrification was halted then? That would make sense.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Essentially yes to make the Burnley service semi fast from Todmorden.

That will not go down well in certain places round here, Tod getting 5 tph to Manchester, while Hebden with 40% higher passenger numbers is stuck at 3tph. Especially when the initial local reports of the Northern Hub (predating the Tod curve), suggested either one or two extra tph running Bradford to Manchester.

Also the natives at Littleborough and Walsden are getting restless about the loss of direct services to Halifax and Bradford. Especially Walsden, which in 2008 had 2tph, but from 2014 will only have 1 Dewsbury service. Passenger numbers are already low to Manchester, because people drive to Littleborough for cheaper fares including a tram journey, cutting the service to Halifax and Bradford will not help already falling passenger numbers. Residents fear station closure

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When the Coalition government took power they ordered for no new projects to start until a spending review had been done. The spending review delayed North West electrification by around 6 months and Thameslink by around 9 months (compared to the previous government's plans.) There was a few months in late 2010 when it was anticipated the North West would get new EMUs as the Coalition gave the go-ahead to North West electrification but wouldn't commit to Thameslink.

If everything had gone to plan then next week we would see all Manchester-Scotland services being electric and the 185s released filling the void via Bolton. Then next May we would see 5tph on North TPE (as still expected) and the extra 185s used on North TPE would have been released off the Bolton corridor as a result of 319s running services on Chat Moss and the associated cascade of DMUs.

The Todmorden Curve scheme was approved in late 2011 and the revised electrification schedule came out in early 2012.

I can't find an NR document offering May 2014 for Phase 2.
In any case project "expectations" and "commitments" are different things.
NR only quote Dec 13 (Phase 1) and Dec 16 (whole NW scheme) as the DfT target dates.
Anyway, I don't see why people are looking for scapegoats for the Todmorden rolling stock issue.
It's "events", and conflicting contracts.
If it matters enough, a solution will be found.

 

[YorkshireBear]

That will not go down well in certain places round here, Tod getting 5 tph to Manchester, while Hebden with 40% higher passenger numbers is stuck at 3tph. Especially when the initial local reports of the Northern Hub (predating the Tod curve), suggested either one or two extra tph running Bradford to Manchester.

Also the natives at Littleborough and Walsden are getting restless about the loss of direct services to Halifax and Bradford. Especially Walsden, which in 2008 had 2tph, but from 2014 will only have 1 Dewsbury service. Passenger numbers are already low to Manchester, because people drive to Littleborough for cheaper fares including a tram journey, cutting the service to Halifax and Bradford will not help already falling passenger numbers. Residents fear station closure

Hmm i hadn't realised a reduction in service. Maybe there is some confusion not aware of any stations having a reduction in tph overall. Will double check what i have written down.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That will not go down well in certain places round here, Tod getting 5 tph to Manchester, while Hebden with 40% higher passenger numbers is stuck at 3tph. Especially when the initial local reports of the Northern Hub (predating the Tod curve), suggested either one or two extra tph running Bradford to Manchester.

Also the natives at Littleborough and Walsden are getting restless about the loss of direct services to Halifax and Bradford. Especially Walsden, which in 2008 had 2tph, but from 2014 will only have 1 Dewsbury service.

Passenger numbers are already low to Manchester, because people drive to Littleborough for cheaper fares including a tram journey, cutting the service to Halifax and Bradford will not help already falling passenger numbers. Residents fear station closure

Walsden railway station was one of those reopened/opened by Metro...in this case in 1990. However, whilst passenger figures from 2005 have grown on many railway stations, Walsden has seen a gradual reduction in its annual passenger figures since that year.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Noticed in the article linked by Hebden Bridger it is mentioned that Walsden-Marsden is cheaper than Walsden-Manchester. It mentions that this is valid via Manchester (I'd have assumed it required route via Dewsbury/Huddersfield) but if that's the case, simply buy that ticket!

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Hmm i hadn't realised a reduction in service. Maybe there is some confusion not aware of any stations having a reduction in tph overall. Will double check what i have written down.

Theres no reduction of tph at each station in 2014 (indeed Tod gains 1tph), there's just a reduction in journey options, with stations south of Tod (except Rochdale) losing direct trains to Halifax and Bradford. There were reductions in tph at the first round of speed improvements in 2009(?) at Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Walsden et al.

From whats been said by yourself and Jcollins, 2016 may bring extra services at each end of the line (Victoria->Todmorden and Halifax->Leeds) but nothing extra to the service between Tod and Leeds, so neither the 2009 tph or the 2014 journey option cuts at the smaller stations will be reversed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Noticed in the article linked by Hebden Bridger it is mentioned that Walsden-Marsden is cheaper than Walsden-Manchester. It mentions that this is valid via Manchester (I'd have assumed it required route via Dewsbury/Huddersfield) but if that's the case, simply buy that ticket!

I did wonder to add a rider, that this is a letter from a residents association, so a few of the points may be less than accurate. I'd agree with your assumption that a cheap fare would be routed through W Yorkshire. However it struck me that Walsden is unstaffed and has no TVM, so its likely that this ticket has been sold by a guard on a train into Manchester.

Perhaps I need to check the routing guide, a ticket from Hebden Bridge to Marsden would save me a few quid on journeys to Manchester.

The points raised in the letter about the service from Walsden and its likely effects on already falling passenger numbers are valid though.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Looks to only be a valid route for Anytime tickets, according to the NRE planner. For off-peak you have to change at Halifax or Dewsbury

 

[Starmill]

Looks to only be a valid route for Anytime tickets, according to the NRE planner. For off-peak you have to change at Halifax or Dewsbury

That seems an incredibly odd analysis... wouldn't put it past NRE though.

It seems to me, from looking at East Coast, the route via Manchester Vic only takes 1h 20... but it suggests isn't valid. Instead it wants to send you on journeys of anything up to 2h 55 changing at an assortment of WY stations, including Halifax and Huddersfield, but also Mirfield! Often with not one but TWO "Long connection time" (45 mins +) warnings!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyway, I don't see why people are looking for scapegoats for the Todmorden rolling stock issue. It's "events", and conflicting contracts. If it matters enough, a solution will be found.

One can only hope and take heart from the phrase uttered by Mr Micawber in the novel "David Copperfield"....

"Something will turn up"

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Statements about line speed improvement as part of the Northern Hub (e.g. in WY Metro documents) seem to have their source in the High Level Output Statement – July 2012 which does specifically say line speed improvements to Bradford rather than faster journeys. Whether this is an error or not I don't know.

To quote QI - "Nobody knows" - the final decisions haven't been made yet. However, You can determine from my signature that there are likely to be infrastructure works involved, leading to journey time improvements.

That said, there are also multiple projects and stakeholders involved, so it may take some time to finalise...

 

[Darren R]

That said, there are also multiple projects and stakeholders involved, so it may take some time to finalise...

Ah yes - we must consult the all-important stakeholders. Endlessly. Whatever it's supposed to mean.

Well, speaking as a stakeholder and customer, my views are that the professionals who are paid to make the decisions using their expertise and experience get on and do so unhindered! How did we manage to do anything for all those centuries before we became stakeholders!

 

[northwichcat]

Recent parliamentary Q&As on the topic:

Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent discussions he has had with Northern Rail on the provision of modern rolling stock to service East Lancashire. [177846]

Stephen Hammond: The Department has very recently received a proposal from Northern Rail for the introduction of electric rolling stock in north-west England, and for the introduction of a new train service from Manchester to Blackburn via Todmorden, to be funded for its first three years of operation by Lancashire county council. A decision will be taken on whether to accept the proposal in due course. In the longer term, the provision of rolling stock on routes in east Lancashire will be a matter for the new Northern franchise, due to start in February 2016.


Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 25 November 2013, Official Report, column 976W, on Manchester-Burnley railway line, if he will require that Northern Rail provides modern and quality rolling stock for the Manchester-Burnley rail route as a condition of accepting the proposal to be considered. [177886]

Stephen Hammond: It is not the Department's policy to specify age or other characteristics of rolling stock. This is a matter for train operators. It has been proposed that the Manchester-Burnley service will be funded by Lancashire county council for its first three years of operation. If this is agreed, the Department's policy is that it will be for the council to decide whether to accept the terms offered by Northern Rail.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Ah yes - we must consult the all-important stakeholders. Endlessly. Whatever it's supposed to mean.

Well, speaking as a stakeholder and customer, my views are that the professionals who are paid to make the decisions using their expertise and experience get on and do so unhindered! How did we manage to do anything for all those centuries before we became stakeholders!

Those I assume would be the same professionals that withdraw the last Calder Valley stopping services via Bradford and are then 'hindered' by stakeholders into reinstalling some services. Not to mention concerns of some stakeholders of the possible closure of an already poorly performing station.

I can assure you that I've advised some local stakeholders of some of the posts made in this thread on plans in 2016 to strengthen the Tod to Victoria and Halifax to Leeds services rather than reinstalling the stopping service. Also that the planned Bradford to Manchester Airport and Liverpool services may turn out to be a Bradford to Chester service and a Rochdale to Airport service. You can rest assured that if these are true, further hinderances will occur.