Todmorden Curve

[Eagle]

Paul, i would agree with you if the delay was a Year or more but for 6 months i do not

Be fair.

It's seven months :P

 

[YorkshireBear]

Be fair.

It's seven months :P

Fair play :P

Still my point stands as it is not a year.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was there anything in the success of the bid monies submission that gave a formal acceptance to a delay from March 2014 to December 2014 with none of the new services ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Was there anything in the success of the bid monies submission that gave a formal acceptance to a delay from March 2014 to December 2014 with none of the new services ?

Probably not, but was there anything saying they had to start in March?

 

[tbtc]

If there were spare stock sat around at the moment then there'd be complaints from people about why this stock were idle (whilst it waited for this expensive chord to be opened at Todmorden).

Same goes for electrification schemes - we'll either see moans about unused EMUs sat around waiting for electrification to be completed or we'll see moans about newly electrified lines stuck with diesels (whilst we waited for EMUs to be freed up elsewhere/ waited for EMUs to be built).

Am not pretending that the current situation is ideal, but its far from the only problem around (and there are more pressing needs for any spared stock)

 

[Darren R]

According to the linked article in the Todmorden News the current MP for Calder Valley, Craig Whittaker (Cons), has said that he "expects the required diesel trains to be found by May, despite Northern Rail’s announcement earlier this month that it could be the end of 2014 before it can acquire the extra rolling stock." Either he knows something we don't (which seems most unlikely ) or he's made a very rash statement indeed. He's obviously never heard of not making promises you can't keep.

But fear not - Labour are on the case too. According to the same article, Mary Creagh - the Opposition Transport Spokesman - has said she is writing to anyone she can think of. Right up to the Chief Executive of NetworkRail, whose response surely will be to write back offering some of NetworkRail's trains to use in the meantime. Genius.

 

[Geeves]

Its not even that the stock is not available to release said diesel trains tomorrow (7? 317s gathering dust at Eastleigh) but you cant coast all the way from NLW to Liverpool with no wires

As Yorkshirebear says, its not that long in the grand scheme of things.

Once the Chat Moss is sorted, Liverpool and Warrington BQ can go all electric, Tod gets its trains, Bolton gets some of its services doubled up, no pain no gain!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Once the Chat Moss is sorted, Liverpool and Warrington BQ can go all electric, Tod gets its trains, Bolton gets some of its services doubled up, no pain no gain!

I was not aware that Todmorden was suffering from a lack of trains.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hes just shortened Todmorden Curve Paul.

 

[northwichcat]

According to the linked article in the Todmorden News the current MP for Calder Valley, Craig Whittaker (Cons), has said that he "expects the required diesel trains to be found by May, despite Northern Rail’s announcement earlier this month that it could be the end of 2014 before it can acquire the extra rolling stock." Either he knows something we don't (which seems most unlikely ) or he's made a very rash statement indeed. He's obviously never heard of not making promises you can't keep.

Northern could use more EMUs in the May 2014 timetable change, which could free up DMUs.

I think Victoria-Lime Street will become half-hourly all day from December 14 and Victoria is getting electrified over the Christmas period so from next year the off-peak Warrington BQ - Victoria services could operate as EMU services if Northern get extra EMUs.

At peak times with some diagramming and timetabling tweaks some 'South Manchester' services could change from DMU to EMU.

However, the only EMUs available would be 317s which Northern may not want to take on due to not being a type of traction they have currently or a type which they are expected to have once the 319s are released.

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont think Victoria is getting electrified this Christmas, I think its just taking advantage of the roof possession work to lower the trackbed under the bridge and possibly install a few supports, some track/points realignments going on as well I think. Victoria station isnt going to be electrified for a couple more years.

 

[Eagle]

I think according to the schedule electrifying to Victoria is still part of phase 2, to be complete by December 2014.

 

[northwichcat]

I dont think Victoria is getting electrified this Christmas, I think its just taking advantage of the roof possession work to lower the trackbed under the bridge and possibly install a few supports, some track/points realignments going on as well I think. Victoria station isnt going to be electrified for a couple more years.

Victoria has to be electrified to allow stopping services on Chat Moss to go over to electric. TfGM have said the through service to/from Stalybridge will end next May, which seems to be in preparation for the stopping services going over to electric. Doing that would allow EMUs to be introduced between the May timetable change and the December one should that prove viable, in the same way the 180 diagrams switched to 2x150 diagrams between May and December.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If there were spare stock sat around at the moment then there'd be complaints from people about why this stock were idle (whilst it waited for this expensive chord to be opened at Todmorden). I am not pretending that the current situation is ideal, but its far from the only problem around (and there are more pressing needs for any spared stock)

This most valid point concerning rolling stock availability that you have made in the quote above is something that Burnley Council as the lead bid authority that submitted the bid surely must have been aware of by Northern Rail prior to the final completion of the bid documentation.

The more I look upon this matter, the more I feel that the blame for this debacle should be put squarely on the shoulders of Burnley Council for submitting a bid based upon a totally false premise.

 

[34D]

Have we determined how many units are needed to operate the new service? Apologies if already stated upthread

 

[edwin_m]

This most valid point concerning rolling stock availability that you have made in the quote above is something that Burnley Council as the lead bid authority that submitted the bid surely must have been aware of by Northern Rail prior to the final completion of the bid documentation.

The more I look upon this matter, the more I feel that the blame for this debacle should be put squarely on the shoulders of Burnley Council for submitting a bid based upon a totally false premise.

As I've posted several times before, at the time the bid went in (2011) there was a general expectation that EMUs would start displacing DMUs by the time the work was completed. The fact that has not happened is down to various factors, most of which can be traced back to DfT.

I didn't see the bid that Burnley put in but I was involved in a small way in preparing it, and the officers at both Burnley and Lancashire struck me as both competent and dedicated. I think it is more than somewhat unfair to put the boot in to a small district authority which first of all had the courage to try for a significant improvement to its rail service, and secondly did enough things right to be successful in winning approval and funding. There must be plenty of other rail projects that have run a good deal more than six months late, as well as plenty more authorities who aren't interested in enhancing their local train service.

 

[WatcherZero]

Victoria has to be electrified to allow stopping services on Chat Moss to go over to electric. TfGM have said the through service to/from Stalybridge will end next May, which seems to be in preparation for the stopping services going over to electric. Doing that would allow EMUs to be introduced between the May timetable change and the December one should that prove viable, in the same way the 180 diagrams switched to 2x150 diagrams between May and December.

The Stalybridge service ends because Northern had to rejig timings of several services to create the extra TPE path meaning there wasnt a path for the shuttle service anymore. My understanding is the initial work is for Chat Moss services to operate from the Airport via Piccadilly and Chat Moss and Victoria itself wont be done until the Bolton line is done in 2016, Stalybridge is considered part of the transpennine electrification but is being brought forward to be part of the Lancashire electrification to increase capacity to allow Victoria electric services to terminate without tying up through platforms.

If your expecting there to be wires at Victoria after Christmas your in for a big dissapointment.

 

[northwichcat]

Victoria itself wont be done until the Bolton line is done in 2016,

If your expecting there to be wires at Victoria after Christmas your in for a big dissapointment.

OK maybe it is just the preparation work in advance of electrification that's been done this December at Victoria but if Victoria isn't done until 2016, why do the preparation work this Christmas and not Christmas 2014?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As I've posted several times before, at the time the bid went in (2011) there was a general expectation that EMUs would start displacing DMUs by the time the work was completed. The fact that has not happened is down to various factors, most of which can be traced back to DfT.

I note that you make reference above to "a general expectation that EMUs would start displacing DMUs by the time the work was completed".

What was the raison d'etre behind this expectation and on what premise was this based ? Was any official input sought that gave rise to such an expectation and where was this input sourced from ?

 

[WatcherZero]

OK maybe it is just the preparation work in advance of electrification that's been done this December at Victoria but if Victoria isn't done until 2016, why do the preparation work this Christmas and not Christmas 2014?

Because theres already a substantial booked possession over Christmas for the roof works, two birds with one stone saving the requirement for more possession time later.

 

[CalderRail]

Have we determined how many units are needed to operate the new service? Apologies if already stated upthread

3 DMUs

 

[Darren R]

I am not, generally speaking, a big defender of councils or councillors, but not even I am blaming them for this. The blame stands firmly at the door of the DfT and the wider Whitehall system. It has happened because we just do not do 'joined up thinking' in this country. The councils did not take into account the provision of rolling stock when the bid was submitted. Why would they? The Toddy Curve was, as Paul Sidorczuk and others have pointed out, part of a wider re-generation project for Burnley. It was not just a rail infrastructure project, and even if it had been, it would not have been part of the bid team's remit to start working out diagrams and timetables!

Northern weren't part of the bid process, primarily because at the time the bid was being put together their franchise was expected to have ended before the infrastructure was complete. Northern just weren't expected to be running the trains, so why discuss the matter with them? The DfT, whose job is to work out such things, didn't discuss the matter with Northern either for the same reason. They were expecting the new franchise to be up and running by now, and the Toddy Curve services would have been part of that franchise agreement. Then, of course, the franchising went down the Swanee. In short, we have no trains because either no-one's thought about it, or if they have, there's been no-one to talk to about running the b****y things!

 

[Techniquest]

The Stalybridge service ends because Northern had to rejig timings of several services to create the extra TPE path meaning there wasnt a path for the shuttle service anymore. My understanding is the initial work is for Chat Moss services to operate from the Airport via Piccadilly and Chat Moss and Victoria itself wont be done until the Bolton line is done in 2016, Stalybridge is considered part of the transpennine electrification but is being brought forward to be part of the Lancashire electrification to increase capacity to allow Victoria electric services to terminate without tying up through platforms.

If your expecting there to be wires at Victoria after Christmas your in for a big dissapointment.

Oh, right, so we won't see much in the way of EMUs west of Piccadilly for a while yet then. I had been hoping to see more electrics up north soon, never mind!

Shame there can't be a bay platform or two built at Victoria, would make it so much easier to have terminating services that way. Sure will be interesting to see how it all works and if any allowances for delays have been included in it all...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Stalybridge service ends because Northern had to rejig timings of several services to create the extra TPE path meaning there wasn't a path for the shuttle service anymore. My understanding is the initial work is for Chat Moss services to operate from the Airport via Piccadilly and Chat Moss and Victoria itself wont be done until the Bolton line is done in 2016, Stalybridge is considered part of the transpennine electrification but is being brought forward to be part of the Lancashire electrification to increase capacity to allow Victoria electric services to terminate without tying up through platforms. If your expecting there to be wires at Victoria after Christmas your in for a big disappointment.

I am finding it somewhat difficult to understand what the shuttle service to Stalybridge has to do with the Todmorden Chord thread that we are on, unless the suggestion made is that the three DMU required for the new Blackburn-Copy Pit line-Manchester service could be sourced from the matter of a 2014 early termination of this Stalybridge shuttle service.

Can this point be clarified, please.

 

[WatcherZero]

He thought its loss was to do with newly electrified services using Victoria from this Christmas and that Victoria Chat Moss services would go over to electric traction, which was incorrect.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just looking at the X43 Witch Way timetable dated 7th September 2013 to see what services depart from Burnley bus station to arrive before 0840 at Manchester Chorlton Street bus station which will be useful for commuters.

Dep 0503...Arrive 0608....65 minutes
Dep 0523...Arrive 0629....66 minutes
Dep 0550...Arrive 0706....76 minutes
Dep 0608...Arrive 0724....76 minutes
Dep 0615...Arrive 0740....85 minutes
Dep 0625...Arrive 0751....86 minutes
Dep 0635...Arrive 0801....86 minutes
Dep 0645...Arrive 0821....96 minutes
Dep 0655...Arrive 0834....99 minutes

Quite a good number of services for Manchester-bound commuters to pick from.

 

[spongsdad]

Just looking at the X43 Witch Way timetable dated 7th September 2013 to see what services depart from Burnley bus station to arrive before 0840 at Manchester Chorlton Street bus station which will be useful for commuters.

Dep 0503...Arrive 0608....65 minutes
Dep 0523...Arrive 0629....66 minutes
Dep 0550...Arrive 0706....76 minutes
Dep 0608...Arrive 0724....76 minutes
Dep 0615...Arrive 0740....85 minutes
Dep 0625...Arrive 0751....86 minutes
Dep 0635...Arrive 0801....86 minutes
Dep 0645...Arrive 0821....96 minutes
Dep 0655...Arrive 0834....99 minutes



Quite a good number of services for Manchester-bound commuters to pick from.

All with brand spanking new vehicles and an established service and clientele. Northern will need to get its act together to provide a really competitive and attractive offering.

 

[YorkshireBear]

All with brand spanking new vehicles and an established service and clientele. Northern will need to get its act together to provide a really competitive an attractive offering.

Rail is always seen as more attractive than the Bus unless journey times can't compete. I sense in the peaks rail journey times will annihilate those of the local roads!

 

[northwichcat]

Rail is always seen as more attractive than the Bus unless journey times can't compete. I sense in the peaks rail journey times will annihilate those of the local roads!

In the times Paul Sidorczuk has quoted it shows why a peak time rail service to Manchester is needed. A 65 minute journey at a quiet time becomes a 99 minute journey at peak times, which for a lot of people makes the difference between Manchester being seen as a commutable destination and not.

The rail service will also be attractive to people who hold a railcard and aren't over 60 and will hopefully allow people from Burnley to get cheap Advance tickets to destinations beyond Manchester.

 

[spongsdad]

Rail is always seen as more attractive than the Bus unless journey times can't compete. I sense in the peaks rail journey times will annihilate those of the local roads!

I'm not sure I agree with you. All things being equal, then Rail would, for me, have the advantage. But all things are not equal. The Todmorden curve service will be entirely new. To my knowledge, direct services from East Lancashire to Manchester have never operated by this route; why would they when the Baxenden, Haslingden & Bury route was open? It will be up against a high frequency well established service. Will the new rail service match the frequency? I doubt it. I doubt if it will even match the capacity, even with the intrinsic advantages that trains have over buses. The other deciding factors are comfort and reliability. In terms of comfort rail vehicles have the advantage. However comfort can also relate to the ambience of travel, clean seats, plenty of legroom, absence of standing passengers, even onboard wifi. I question whether any unit allocated to this service will meet those parameters without first undergoing radical refurbishment and possibly not even then.
On the subject of reliability, I leave others to judge, but there seems to be little spare capacity to cope with train failures; indeed there seems to be no capacity to run any sort of service for another 12 months.
I really want this new service to succeed. The local community has too much invested in it for it to fail. Nonetheless, I repeat the point of my last post. The new rail service has to be better than good to compete effectively with what's there already.