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Oracle

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Is there any known booked use of the reversible line from Totton Yard through the station across trhe causeway over the River Test to Redbridge Junction? It seems that there is just one gantry signal for the wrong line move on the causeway.



Thos 66 top-and-tailed and engineering train at was at the Gantry, on the Down line on the causeway, 5th March 2006, just before the wrong-line red signal. I assume that the line can be used in the event of a breakdown on the causeway, and is a left-over from the Eling Wharf branch trains.

Here's another shot showing the wrong-road signal on top of the gantry:

 
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Tomnick

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I don't know the area very well, but a combination of Simsig and Quail makes me pretty certain that the wrong-line move wouldn't be suitable for passenger trains in service. There seems to be a signal (two aspect red/yellow?) at the up end of the down platform at Totton, then another fixed red aspect just west of Redbridge Junction - with a position light signal routing towards Redbridge Down Platform or the goods lines behind the station. I'll happily be corrected by anyone with local knowledge though!
 

Oracle

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From memory yesterday there is indeed a signal at the up end of Totton, and there is also a warning sign saying it's a reversible. The red is on the gantry in the bottom photo, at the top whereas the Up signal is on the left side as can be seen. As I said I am sure it is a left-over from the Eling Wharf days. There are also two small black 'signals' either side of the Junction Road level crossing on the ground ...forget what you call them but with red and white aspects.


NOTE: ToTTon, New Forest District, the biggest village in England, Hampshire not the famous Toton!


By the way although the engineer's train was stabled on the Down Romsey line past Redbridge Junction I saw no evidence of the trailing crossover to the right, the other side of the road bridge, being used at the time. It does however have shiny rails so it must see some use!
 
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Tom

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It is possible to run up on the Down Main between Totton Yard and Redbridge (return to up beyond Redbridge station). The line is fully passenger signalled, I'll see if I can get a video tomorrow.
 

TheSlash

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I think Simsig might be wrong with a set of points, i have the strange feeling that to get out of Marchwood you have to run bang road to Redbridge and cross over to the up there.
[EDIT]
Don't forgot that also during a possession you can carry out all sorts of wonderfull moves with the assistance of points operators and Hand signalmen.
 

Tomnick

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Slash chap - Quail agrees with Simsig on this one...seems you can cross to the up road at Totton Jn. East, so no wrong-road running required. Thinking about it though, anything from Marchwood/Brockenhurst needing to go into the goods lines at Redbridge would have to run wrong-road from Totton, as there's no crossover for that move at Redbridge!

Liam chap - Toton's between Trent and Trowell in the East Midlands. Totton's between Southampton and Brockenhurst on the South Coast ;).
 

ChrisM

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Indeed anything from Fawley or Marchwood crossover between Totton yard and the level crossing back onto the mainline,same as the Totton to Romsey shuttle which stables their bewteen duties.
Nothing is booked to run wrong line between Totton and Redbridge.
 

trains2

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There is actually, the SO (Q) Soton MT - Marchwood and return stored freightliner flats will run wrong line into Maritime on the return from Totton as there is no other access to MT from the west, would have to go to Millbrook and run round. Technically that single light signal is only for getting in MT, hence why there are no other aspects and the call-on is for MT. You can't use the call-on for anything else i.e. running wrong line into Redbridge because that's not the idea of it. So technically you cannot run wrong line into Redbridge unless the single aspect is bi-colour.
 

Oracle

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You learn something startling every day!

Yes the Totton-Romsey, or Totton-Eastleigh DMUs [the latter when the service cocks up] reverse in the Yard and then come back via Up Main. There is effectively a loop that parallels the Down Main and goes off to Marchwood, as would be expected, but has a short connection to the Down Main as well. This was used on a railtour once when the train came off the Fawley Branch, stopped, then reversed onto the Down Main to head off for Furzebrook, then Hamworthy.

Is there anything booked to reverse at Redbridge Junction using the cross-over on the Down Romsey-Up Redbridge line? Perhaps for exiting MT to the west to turn back to the east?

Off topic but it seems that Freightliner are using the Southampton Western Docks branch to stable trains which they load/unload whilst stabled near the old P&O terminal, with containers stacked adjacent to the lines. This seems to be seperate from the MT terminal: is this now a permanent measure as it means that the Eastern Docks branch is being utilised much more than previously since the charter liner cruise liner trains stopped.
 

Tomnick

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trains2 said:
Technically that single light signal is only for getting in MT, hence why there are no other aspects and the call-on is for MT.
Simsig disagrees with you on that one - I'm not guaranteeing that the sim's right though, of course. It looks as if there's three routes from the position light signal associated with the fixed red main aspect - routing from that signal to 1) the down platform at Redbridge (to the GPL at east end), 2) the through goods line to the rear of the station and 3) the 'depot reception sidings' behind that line.
trains2 said:
You can't use the call-on for anything else i.e. running wrong line into Redbridge because that's not the idea of it.
You've lost me a bit there! I don't think it's a 'calling on' signal as much as a 'shunt (ahead)' signal. Since the move into Redbridge Down Platform would appear to be available as a signalled shunt move, I think it's quite happily covered by the function of that signal!
trains2 said:
So technically you cannot run wrong line into Redbridge unless the single aspect is bi-colour.
Wouldn't be a single aspect signal then ;). You'd also need a running signal to route to, instead of the GPL at the east end of the platform. There's no reason why a three-aspect signal couldn't route right through the down platform and to the next signal on the up main, 'preceded' by that GPL...but that doesn't appear to be the case here.
 

TheSlash

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Tomnick, i know what made me think that Simsig was wrong...
I spent a few months as a lookout in the patrolling gang, basically i'd walk with the patrolman looking out for him when he inspected things like points. I remember walking Ashurst to Church Lane {upside Freightliner depot on Simsig}. To do this, we walked on the down line, in the up direction. As we passed Totton yard, we noticed the weekly empty flats move waiting to depart {probably a monday morning} and the patrolman explained that the train would be running 'bang road' {using the reversible}, thats where i've gotten confussed.
 
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Tom

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I asked a BM driver and he said the signal on the down road can display yellow as well as red, wasn't able to get a pic of the signal as a Freightliner was passing at the time.
 

Oracle

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Incidentally, the same day that I took the photos of the engineers' trains at Redbridge, trains were reversing at Woolston on the St Denys-Fareham line using the Ground Frame:
http://www.nostalgiaroad.co.uk/WOOLSTON1.jpg
http://www.nostalgiaroad.co.uk/WOOLSTON4.jpg
http://www.nostalgiaroad.co.uk/WOOLSTON6.jpg

Of course there is now no wrong-road starter, so Mr GF operator did the honours! He seemed to enjoy a nice cuppa and a fag in the station then when it was time to wave off, he magically appeared!
 

trains2

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Tomnick said:
Simsig disagrees with you on that one - I'm not guaranteeing that the sim's right though, of course. It looks as if there's three routes from the position light signal associated with the fixed red main aspect - routing from that signal to 1) the down platform at Redbridge (to the GPL at east end), 2) the through goods line to the rear of the station and 3) the 'depot reception sidings' behind that line.

You've lost me a bit there! I don't think it's a 'calling on' signal as much as a 'shunt (ahead)' signal. Since the move into Redbridge Down Platform would appear to be available as a signalled shunt move, I think it's quite happily covered by the function of that signal!

Wouldn't be a single aspect signal then ;). You'd also need a running signal to route to, instead of the GPL at the east end of the platform. There's no reason why a three-aspect signal couldn't route right through the down platform and to the next signal on the up main, 'preceded' by that GPL...but that doesn't appear to be the case here.
When I say call-on I mean the same thing as shunt, best thing to call it is position white light signal (PWLS) as they are both the same thing. The thing is, the PWLS is used in this instance for gaining access to a yard, i.e. MT, and implies that you are entering a non-signalled area. If going into the platform at Redbridge there is another signal ahead of it and it is not a yard as such, so a signal aspect should be required, hence why i thought you couldn't get into Redbridge (although Simsig disagrees) because it is a single aspect. However we now seem to think it is a bi-colour lens as TC says, in whcih case you can get into Redbridge. But the general idea of that signal is to gain access into MT.
 

Tomnick

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trains2 said:
When I say call-on I mean the same thing as shunt, best thing to call it is position white light signal (PWLS) as they are both the same thing. The thing is, the PWLS is used in this instance for gaining access to a yard, i.e. MT, and implies that you are entering a non-signalled area. If going into the platform at Redbridge there is another signal ahead of it and it is not a yard as such, so a signal aspect should be required, hence why i thought you couldn't get into Redbridge (although Simsig disagrees) because it is a single aspect. However we now seem to think it is a bi-colour lens as TC says, in whcih case you can get into Redbridge. But the general idea of that signal is to gain access into MT.
The goods line is signalled though - the position light routes to another GPL on that line. The only route from that signal that doesn't route to another signal, as such, is the one into the depot reception sidings. I see no reason why a 'shunt' signal can't permit a 'shunt' move in the wrong direction along a running line!
 

bunnahabhain

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trains2 said:
However we now seem to think it is a bi-colour lens as TC says, in whcih case you can get into Redbridge.
In terms of a semaphore signal, do you mean a specticle plate capable of colouring the light behind it into two seperate colours?

That would take some doing, having a lens capable of altering the colour of itself!
 

Oracle

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Excuse my complete ignorance but what does GPL mean?

Also, take what may still be the case at Havant: there is/was a shunt signal on the remaining through Down road that enabled trains to reverse back wrong line to cross-over on to the Up and head for either the Guildford line or back along Coastway.
 

Tomnick

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Jamie said:
In terms of a semaphore signal, do you mean a specticle plate capable of colouring the light behind it into two seperate colours?

That would take some doing, having a lens capable of altering the colour of itself!
I think we're talking about LED signals ;). None of this old-fangled semaphore stuff 'round them parts!
 

bunnahabhain

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Who needs LED's when you've got proper signalling!

Anyway, I think he's talking about a 'Searchlight' style signal.

http://tillyweb.biz/gallery/qq/quornsig.jpg

Similar to that, for non-signalmen passed out at Quorn, it's got two specticle plates of blue and red, and they revolve around in there once the lever in the frame is pulled, so it shows green and red to the driver.

Simple really, as long as you're not stupid.
 

Oracle

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Is a PWLS the smallish ground-located signal with white/red lenses? There are them two of then at Totton crossing: one facing the Down direction presumably for the Yard, and one facing Down direction, and I wondered if this was for a wrong-road move along the Down reversible line? From memory there was no cross-over for the Eling Wharf branch which trailed off the Down just west of the platform, curving round to the right. I believe I read on a forum that the item Yard side of the crossing may have been a left-over from the Wharf branch which required trains to reverse back down across the gated crossing in High Street.
 

Tomnick

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Automotivehistorian said:
Is a PWLS the smallish ground-located signal with white/red lenses? There are then two of then at Totton crossing: one facing the Down direction presumably for the Yard, and one facing Down direction, and I wondered if this was for a wrong-road move along the Down reversible line? From memory there was no cross-over for the Eling Wharf branch which trailed off the Down just west of the platform, curving round to the right. I believe I read on a forum that the item Yard side of the crossing may have been a left-over from the Whard branch which required trains to reverse back down across the gated crossing in High Street.
PWLS is, I've got to admit, an acronym I've not heard before. The signal with red/white lenses you describe, is generally known as a 'ground position light' (GPL) - though they're not always at ground level! When displaying red/white (being replaced with red/red in the same arrangement, in modern installations), they may not be passed; when displaying white/white (diagonally) they may be passed with caution to proceed as far as the line is clear. The position light signal in question is associated with a main aspect, so there is no 'danger' indication (the position light is unlit as the main - fixed? - aspect provides the 'no go' red light!), but 'two white' permits the driver to pass the main aspect at danger and proceed as far as the line is clear - usually into a siding or wrong direction along a running line, or to 'call-on' into an occupied line.
 

Tomnick

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Automotivehistorian said:
I'm going to take my Olympus along the road to Totton and take some pix! I might be able to get a shot of the causeway gantry. Thanks for the input!
If you could get some photos, that'd be great! I'm not too sure on the situation myself, so it'd help me clear up the confusion a little bit. It's that signal immediately west of the junction at Redbridge that's confusing me - I assume that's the one of the gantry 'mid-causeway', but I'm not totally sure!
 

GeoffM

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Tomnick said:
Simsig disagrees with you on that one - I'm not guaranteeing that the sim's right though, of course. It looks as if there's three routes from the position light signal associated with the fixed red main aspect - routing from that signal to 1) the down platform at Redbridge (to the GPL at east end), 2) the through goods line to the rear of the station and 3) the 'depot reception sidings' behind that line.
I didn't do that sim so I can be fairly independant. However, the sim does appear to be correct from the diagrams I have (though they are a few years old now). They show the signal (774) having a fixed red, a subsidiary (slotted), and a theatre box with three indications - X for down main, H for arrival and departure road, and R for depot reception sidings.

Tomnick said:
There's no reason why a three-aspect signal couldn't route right through the down platform and to the next signal on the up main, 'preceded' by that GPL...but that doesn't appear to be the case here.
Nowadays you can't have a route on an immediately parallel line that has a signal, where your line doesn't - in other words, you'd need a main signal adjacent to 772 (Up Main before the crossover). Obviously bi-di sections are exceptions to this rule, plus where the lines are a certain distance apart. I don't know where that rule stands when a parallel is a shunt signal (it would act as a preset shunt or facing shunt in this particular case).

Geoff M.
 

Tomnick

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GeoffM said:
Nowadays you can't have a route on an immediately parallel line that has a signal, where your line doesn't - in other words, you'd need a main signal adjacent to 772 (Up Main before the crossover). Obviously bi-di sections are exceptions to this rule, plus where the lines are a certain distance apart. I don't know where that rule stands when a parallel is a shunt signal (it would act as a preset shunt or facing shunt in this particular case).

Geoff M.
Hi Geoff,

Thanks for confirming the details, at least how they were a few years ago! The rule on signals on adjacent lines seems to rule out any recent resignalling too - I'd somehow overlooked the presence of 772 on the up road.
 

Oracle

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Well I've just got back and done the best this amateur can! May I just mention that the Up Main through Totton is signed as a Reversible AS IS THE UP REDBRIDGE but I have yet to see any evidence that it is..I assume that it is a safety warning to heed the Down line which IS a reversible.
 
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Tom

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If it was a fixed red light - what is the point of the 3 aspect signal at London end of down main at Totton...
 
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