TPE 350s

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Masboroughlad

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I know that the order for TPE 350s has gone in and that the interior spec is different from the LM ones and should be more suited to the Man-Scotland journeys.

Any news anywhere on what they will consist of yet? Will we see a shop/buffet counter? Enclosed seting area (ie vestibule ends with doors ala Voyager/Pendolino?)

Any plans anywhere?
 
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aformeruser

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I imagine the TPE 350s will be a modified 350/1 interior, while the new LM 350s will have a 350/2 interior.

I've noticed on the TPE site they've said their new 350s will be 350/4s not 350/3s. They've also stated 210 seats in total and catering will be provided by a trolley: http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/about-ft...land-and-scotland-to-benefit-from-new-trains/

I've also noted they are claiming an 80% increase in capacity - would that suggest an hourly 4 car 350?
 
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aformeruser

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According to @londonmidland on Twitter. I should hope that would be sufficiently reliable for the purposes of this site. ;)
"They'll be an enhanced 350/1"

That's not very specific. An enhanced 350/1 could mean more seats than a 350/1 but not as many squeezed in as on a 350/2.
 

Roylang

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aformeruser

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Wikipedia states that the 350/3 will be 3+2 seating so that must be confirmation that they will be 2+2 ;)
It's marked as citification required. I've noticed no-one's been able to provide a reliable source stating 2+2 seating - the LM Twitter account saying revised 350/1 interior would not exactly meet Wikipedia requirements for references as a 350/2 interior is a revised 350/1 interior.
 

WatcherZero

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I think people are looking to the multiple circumstanial evidences, purpose of these LM units which would be doing 350/2 routes, short distance commuter implies high density seating. Meanwhile the announced seating of the TPE 350's is virtually identical to the 350/1's If the 350/3 have different seating to that on the 350/4 then again hi density seating is to be expected.
 

swt_passenger

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The ITT for the 350/3s (now that we can use the official term rather than the previous speculation!) was for a similar layout to the 350/2s, the seat numbers were 240 S and 18 F or thereabouts.

The recent OJEU 'statement of contract award' says that one of the changes to the LM part of the order is that the original seatinging spec was changed.

c) The London Midland Units and the Manchester/Scotland Units having different lay-outs to the lay-out indicated in the contract notice, which indicated a minimum of 240 standard seats and 18 first class seats in a 4-car unit...

http://www.publictenders.net/node/152063
Tony Miles of Modern Railways has subsequently posted in the wnxx forum that the LM variants were definitely now 2+2 seating.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've also noted they are claiming an 80% increase in capacity - would that suggest an hourly 4 car 350?
That was the conclusion reached in the '110 mph thread' where we were already discussing this subject: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60854&page=7
 
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Nym

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Well, it depends on how they path up the timetable tbh, if it does go hourly alternate pattern between Preston and Edinbrugh and Preston and Glasgow, they can look at cutting some more stops out of the Euston services north of Preston. South of preston covered by putting in a 2nd tph to cover the stops, then the Euston - Glasgow services can call at Euston, Preston, Carlisle & Glasgow only.
Or to keep more services between any variation on this, but i think the alternate pattern should line up to hourly off Preston.
 

Eagle

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Okay, highly unrealistic, but let's say the services from Preston towards Carlisle are spaced at 20-minute intervals. Services from London and services from Birmingham need to have an hourly pattern. How would that go?

x0.00 London to Glasgow
x0.20 Birmingham to Edinburgh
x0.40 Manchester to Glasgow
x1.00 London to Glasgow
x1.20 Birmingham to Glasgow
x1.40 Manchester to Edinburgh
x2.00 London to Glasgow

(Of course the actual intervals would be different but the order would be the same.)

So we now have the Edinburgh trains at intervals of 40 and 80 minutes, which is the best you can do.
 

WatcherZero

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I imagine the clock face hourly timetable is pretty important for the timings. With alternating 40/80 minute intervals your rolling stock requirements would be clumping.
 

Eagle

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I imagine the clock face hourly timetable is pretty important for the timings. With alternating 40/80 minute intervals your rolling stock requirements would be clumping.
There's no way you can fix it though; either Glasgow and Edinburgh alternate 40/80, or Birmingham and Manchester alternate 40/80. (If the London service wasn't there, and they were at 30-minute frequencies, the alternation would be 30/90.)
 

Johnny Lewis

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So, TPE have finally announced that they will be getting 10 x 350/4 units, which will be 4 coach trains, each having a seating capacity of 210, of which 19 will be First Class. One assumes then that there will be rather more luggage capacity than in both existing 350s and 185s (it represents a seating increase of only 19 seats from a 3 car 185 to a 4 car 350/4).

TPE ARE (surprisingly in my opinion) to keep ALL their existing DMU fleet of 51 x 185s and 9 x 170s.

Which brings me to my question: how best should the diesel fleet be deployed once the Manchester - Scotland services have become entirely electric?

Should the 170s be concentrated on just one particular route, as, doubled up, they could provide a 4 car train each hour instead of a 3 car? (The South Route might be a sensible contender)?

Or would it be sensible to return all South Route services to be 185s, rather than the mix of 170s/185s as now, and concentrate the 170s as paired-up units on Manchester / Hull services, rather than the mix of 185s/170s that operate on that service at present?

Will 10 x 350s effectively release 10 x 185 units, and, if so, where would these be best deployed? Make all Liverpool / Scarborough trains 2 x 185 all through the day? Running 6 car trains to / from Manchester Airport is more problematic, as many services share platforms at Manchester Airport with other services; 6 car trains would in most cases prevent this.

I'm interested in peoples' ideas.... as I am not sure that there is one definitive answer that stands out above all the others. In all cases, such a solution will only be temporary, as North West electrification will, from 2016, enable Manchester / Blackpool services to also become EMU operated and obviously, once the full Manchester - Leeds - York electrification scheme is completed, then who knows what traction will then be used on the North Route?
 

ainsworth74

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One assumes then that there will be rather more luggage capacity than in both existing 350s and 185s (it represents a seating increase of only 19 seats from a 3 car 185 to a 4 car 350/4).
Not necessarily, a 350 vehicle is 20m long whilst 185 is 23m so the new units will be 80m long whilst the existing 185s are 69m long so you're only gaining 11m of extra space which isn't really all that much (seeing as we're fitting in an extra toilet as well!).

Or would it be sensible to return all South Route services to be 185s, rather than the mix of 170s/185s as now, and concentrate the 170s as paired-up units on Manchester / Hull services, rather than the mix of 185s/170s that operate on that service at present?
This would be my preferred option to run the Hull - Manchester as doubled up 170s releasing 185s onto South TPE. I'm not sure if the numbers work out though as that would mean that there would only be a maximum of four trains being available to work the service (with one spare 2-car unit). But if it could be made to work then that's what I'd do (and wasn't that the original plan anyway before TPE had to lose a load of 185s to run Manchester - Scotland).
 

YorkshireBear

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So, TPE have finally announced that they will be getting 10 x 350/4 units, which will be 4 coach trains, each having a seating capacity of 210, of which 19 will be First Class. One assumes then that there will be rather more luggage capacity than in both existing 350s and 185s (it represents a seating increase of only 19 seats from a 3 car 185 to a 4 car 350/4).

TPE ARE (surprisingly in my opinion) to keep ALL their existing DMU fleet of 51 x 185s and 9 x 170s.

Which brings me to my question: how best should the diesel fleet be deployed once the Manchester - Scotland services have become entirely electric?

Should the 170s be concentrated on just one particular route, as, doubled up, they could provide a 4 car train each hour instead of a 3 car? (The South Route might be a sensible contender)?

Or would it be sensible to return all South Route services to be 185s, rather than the mix of 170s/185s as now, and concentrate the 170s as paired-up units on Manchester / Hull services, rather than the mix of 185s/170s that operate on that service at present?

Will 10 x 350s effectively release 10 x 185 units, and, if so, where would these be best deployed? Make all Liverpool / Scarborough trains 2 x 185 all through the day? Running 6 car trains to / from Manchester Airport is more problematic, as many services share platforms at Manchester Airport with other services; 6 car trains would in most cases prevent this.

I'm interested in peoples' ideas.... as I am not sure that there is one definitive answer that stands out above all the others. In all cases, such a solution will only be temporary, as North West electrification will, from 2016, enable Manchester / Blackpool services to also become EMU operated and obviously, once the full Manchester - Leeds - York electrification scheme is completed, then who knows what traction will then be used on the North Route?
Get the 170s onto one route to increase doubling up. I would like to see it work that the minmum length is a 3 car 185 and that no 170 runs round without another one attatched.

Just use to boost core capacity as much as possible. No new routesor services just boosting capacity.
 

WatcherZero

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TPE's stated plan is to use the freed up 185's to add an extra hourly Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle service and use the remaining 185's for some doubling of existing services.
 
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I might have missed something (and probably have....)but if the new units will be used via Wigan for services to and from Scotland/Manchester will TPE not be using 185's to run alternative services through Bolton so that the already chronically overcrowded services do not get any worse? Northern Rail services alone can't cope.

I'm not sure how this works, but I already no that I struggle to board the train to and from Manchester as it is.
 
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