TPE 350s

[YorkshireBear]

3 car TPE are often full north of preston though as i have been to penrith on TPE a fair few times and never got a seat, been crammed in most times to uncomfortable levels and left once aswell.

 

[Nym]

3 car TPE are often full north of preston though as i have been to penrith on TPE a fair few times and never got a seat, been crammed in most times to uncomfortable levels and left once aswell.

Well, hopefully in the long term we'll see ICWC ordering 6 car baby pendos for the route and running the route to have portion working with Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester combined in some way. Perhaps in the way I discribed in great detail on the babypendo thread that resulted in said babypendos on... (I hadn't considered the Birmingham route)

Liverpool - Glasgow 1tp2h
Manchester - Edinbrugh 1tp2h
Manchester - Glasgow 1tp2h
Euston - Edinbrugh 1tp2h
Euston - Chester 1tph
Euston - Somewhere else, maybe Liverpool, Blackpool, Huddersfeild? 1tp2h

 

[Viscount702]

I was expecting the end to end journey times to be quicker but the proposed timetable indicates the timings are exactly the same despite 350's over 185s

 

[Whistler40145]

What will be the 350/4s top speed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[YorkshireBear]

What will be the 350/4s top speed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I believe 110mph like the 350/3s

 

[WatcherZero]

I was expecting the end to end journey times to be quicker but the proposed timetable indicates the timings are exactly the same despite 350's over 185s

They are being phased in between Dec 2013 and May 2014 timetables though and for a period 185's will be running side by side with 350's on the route, probably adjust the timings when the service is up and running with all electrics.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Could they not build 51 185 Centre Carriages whilst there at it or maybe a Pantograph car for the 185's?

 

[Viscount702]

They are being phased in between Dec 2013 and May 2014 timetables though and for a period 185's will be running side by side with 350's on the route, probably adjust the timings when the service is up and running with all electrics.

But those are the timings for the May 2014 service hence the question

 

[ainsworth74]

Could they not build 51 185 Centre Carriages whilst there at it or maybe a Pantograph car for the 185's?

The 185s have Diesel-Hydraulic transmissions not Diesel-Electric like 22xs (which is I assume where you've got the idea from), this means that in order for Pantographs to be useful you would need to install electric motors for the axles as well as electric generators to take the engines output and make it useful (as well as removing the existing hydraulic transmissions). Basically the cost and complexity would be such that you might as well build a new train.

As for building 51 centre vehicles you wouldn't be able to do it as part of this order as 350 vehicles is different from 185 vehicles (for one thing they're a different length).

 

[Blindtraveler]

well cant say im iether impressed or surprised. a very similar interior to the 185s? Well that says it all. They bleated on about how good they were with IC qualitty seats etc when the penine units were new and unless the person who designed them is superman, 3.5hrs on one of those is murder!
New this would happen but was clearly lulled into faulse sense of security by the media hype that the interiors would be better. TPE should never have been allowed to have anything to do with the run or the stock as they know as much about long distance travel as I know about driving and anyone who has used one of there hellish Scottish runs will know that!

 

[DXMachina]

The 185s have Diesel-Hydraulic transmissions not Diesel-Electric like 22xs (which is I assume where you've got the idea from), this means that in order for Pantographs to be useful you would need to install electric motors for the axles as well as electric generators to take the engines output and make it useful (as well as removing the existing hydraulic transmissions). Basically the cost and complexity would be such that you might as well build a new train.
.

Sure I read on here that 185s can - and do - run with one or more cars completely powered down and transmissions disengaged

That being the case, you could build an electric power car for a 185 but it would have to have its own traction motors and sufficient power to propel 3 diesel power cars as well as itself and provide power for brakes on the other cars, cab systems and internal lighting... and not be so heavy that the diesel units couldnt haul IT when off the wires and dead

Might not be ideal but it's certainly not impossible. Plenty old EMU's only had traction motors on one of 4 vehicles..

 

[pemma]

Sure I read on here that 185s can - and do - run with one or more cars completely powered down and transmissions disengaged

It called eco-mode. It was trialled by TPE after they realised the 185s were the most diesel thirsty units in operation and deemed a success because it saves enough diesel to power their 9 x 170s with impacting on journey times.

http://www.rail.co/2011/07/28/first-transpennine-express-eco-mode-scheme-proves-a-success/

 

[WatcherZero]

But those are the timings for the May 2014 service hence the question

From the application form they are putting in two seperate applications, the first for the Dec 350 introduction and the second for the 185 recast in May, the Scotland route isnt touched in the second application.

29 minute journey time Wigan-Piccadilly, im chuffed, beat NR's RUS estimate of 33 minutes if this pans out. Peak timetable is all over the place but offpeak is a clockface timetable.

 

[pemma]

From the application form they are putting in two seperate applications, the first for the Dec 350 introduction and the second for the 185 recast in May, the Scotland route isnt touched in the second application.

That could result in a phased-in solution like what happened with the 2008 WCML recast. The hourly Chester-London services didn't start at the December 08 recast but were phased in later, with Virgin operating some Chester-Crewe shuttles on a temporary basis to plug the gap left by the frequency of the ATW Chester-Crewe service being reduced.

 

[ainsworth74]

That being the case, you could build an electric power car for a 185 but it would have to have its own traction motors and sufficient power to propel 3 diesel power cars as well as itself and provide power for brakes on the other cars, cab systems and internal lighting... and not be so heavy that the diesel units couldnt haul IT when off the wires and dead

Well you could but to my mind your asking for two mutually exclusive things, high power output and light weight. We need a vehicle that has all the motors and transformers sufficient to propel around 168 tonnes of dead weight (as well as whatever this new PMSO weighs) at 100mph and accelerate sharpish as well (otherwise the current paths won't work). For comparison a Class 321 which has three trailers and one motor vehicle weighs only 138 tonnes so for this to work we would need one hell of a motor vehicle (and we would probably have some adhesion issues as well).

I'm not saying it's impossible but I suspect it would be bloody difficult to make it work well.

 

[Nym]

One could make it work, but it would proberbly need to be lengthened out to 5 carriages to make it work properly, with two duplicate PMSO vehicles, and these would weigh in at about 46 - 50 tonnes a peice, but it could be done, and you could use the bodyshells from the 380 production line where there are still jigs in place for the vehicles. But why bother when you can do it to the 22x fleet and have a much better fleet of units as a result.

 

[ainsworth74]

One could make it work, but it would proberbly need to be lengthened out to 5 carriages to make it work properly, with two duplicate PMSO vehicles, and these would weigh in at about 46 - 50 tonnes a peice, but it could be done, and you could use the bodyshells from the 380 production line where there are still jigs in place for the vehicles.

And then you've got the issue of the three diesel vehicles lugging around somewhere in the region of 100 tonnes of dead weight themselves! They could probably handle one trailer without too much difficulty but two? Seems like a hell of a lot of extra weight for them to haul and not suffer in terms of acceleration at least.

But why bother when you can do it to the 22x fleet and have a much better fleet of units as a result.

Well quite. 185s are not really suitable for this sort of modification.

 

[DXMachina]

true - unless you used one diesel as well when the pantograph was up, for faster acceleration and hill-climbing

 

[ainsworth74]

true - unless you used one diesel as well when the pantograph was up, for faster acceleration and hill-climbing

Surely defeating the point of it being electric in the first place!? Surely you remember the gales of laughter and derision that followed an early announcement that Bi-Mode IEP would need a diesel generator running at the same time as it was drawing power from the OHLE?

 

[Nym]

true - unless you used one diesel as well when the pantograph was up, for faster acceleration and hill-climbing

I'll leave it to everyone else to tell you how many things are wrong with that statment.

We can't decide or even start thinking of what to do with the 185 fleet until we have a longer term decision on the Manc/Brum - Scotland fleet and how much of TP North is being electrified, and what stock will run that. Until then, all we can really say is that it would politically popular to keep it around Northernland and run it as some kind of "Northern Citylink" or "TP Express" depending on if the franchises are merged or not. Appropriate route have also been sudgested for them, but again, this depends on the shape of the franchises and what routes are going to be run.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I've seen the timetable and it looks like half the services are going through Bolton! I admit that I think some should serve Bolton, but 185s can be used on a shuttle instead between the Airport and Preston?

 

[pemma]

I've seen the timetable and it looks like half the services are going through Bolton!

Er - yes. The Blackpool services are going through Bolton and the Scottish services are going through Wigan. There have never been any plans to move the Blackpool services off the Bolton line and they will eventually become an electric service.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Er - yes. The Blackpool services are going through Bolton and the Scottish services are going through Wigan. There have never been any plans to move the Blackpool services off the Bolton line and they will eventually become an electric service.

So there aren't many Scottish services then? Well I guess at the end of the day, improved capacity!
What about BON-EDB or anything like that?

 

[Eagle]

What about BON-EDB or anything like that?

So what? What about Liverpool to Edinburgh? That's surely a bigger market but punters have to change at Wigan.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

So what? What about Liverpool to Edinburgh? That's surely a bigger market but punters have to change at Wigan.

True, true.
How about Windermere services? What service will that be? (Timetable looks like a cluster)

 

[pemma]

So there aren't many Scottish services then?

Currently it's 2 hourly with some extras added in but that will improve to almost an hourly schedule.

How about Windermere services?

At peak times a portion will run attached to the Manchester Airport-Blackpool service for Windermere. The rest of the day it will be a shuttle service serving Windermere.

 

[Bevan Price]

Could they not build 51 185 Centre Carriages whilst there at it or maybe a Pantograph car for the 185's?

Even if DfT would pay for them (very unlikely), you have another problem. Ardwick maintenance depot . Each road can contain 2 x 3 car 185's, but it could only contain one 4 car 185. So, you would also need to finance a major extension to the depot (and presumably also the depot at York.)

 

[ukrob]

Wasn't Ardwick built with four car units in mind?

 

[tbtc]

Wasn't Ardwick built with four car units in mind?

I'd have *assumed* so, since the plan at the time was that a fourth coach would be built

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'd have *assumed* so, since the plan at the time was that a fourth coach would be built

Surely doing that is a bit risky with this countries railways? Assume nothing!!!! :P

I would certainly think they have, ardwick is now also to be home to 350s and i dont believe it needs extending? just electryfying?